haha, all good.

Lancers is actually 57 years old

And will they up the costs again? Will they cut there margin to crush JJP?

o'hare western access may get some kind of tunnel to the main terminals.

maybe even an Blue Line Extension

No widebodies
Pops, and must be in a nest, no single exposed pops ever
Shooter rod
Italian bottom
No design elements added to the bottom even within the Italian bottom constraint (bounce back posts with one way gates, spots in the inlanes, literally any variation at all)
No subways (finally broke this rule for very short subways on GB/MET prem/LE)
No original themes

Those are the big ones. No backbox animation in over 10 years (T3) so that may be another

I think they should throw in a "random" exit point so you never know where it will come out. Just make sure it won't drain when it does. Keep people on their toes.

You could also make the case that for a newbie, the ball falling SDTM after you successfully hit a bash target and aren’t skilled at nudging is more frustrating than the 90s approach of subway>vuk>wireform delivering the ball safely to the flipper.

They do and have recently.

But it makes for a good crybaby talking point for the "cost cutter" crowd.

The decision to eliminate use of subways was a Stern company decision all the way back to 2001.
There intent was to make cheaper, affordable operator games that were more reliable and less complex.
It is called a "top down" method, similar to the designed games such as T2 and Getaway.
Hence, the removal of this type of feature very early on.
This standard for the most part has remained intact today, and other types of old style innovations removed from games.

For example, return lane kickbacks.
Removed, for cost reasons as they were considered "unnecessary features".

Supreme has a subway? In a retheme of the home version of Spidey?

Sorry BK but you need to update the Pong/Atari code in your head from 1980's Westworld scenario

Don't see the need for subways. Not really something you interact with and it can be confusing where the ball will come out on games with subways. Stern does have games where ramps go behind backboard. Always thought that was cool.

Or possibly the designer of said machine has not given/supplied Gary Stern with enough "Adult beverages" just prior to final ok of game.

i honestly dont think that will ever happen...more toys than TZ??? Stern doesnt even have subways in their games due to cost.

for us the old school pinheads subways are cool and adds much more fun to the game,i know not a lot of people will agree but its something i grew up with while playing pinball way back in the good old days

Yeah but it's sooooooo confusing

Ha! i really dont see how anyone can be confused about it..lol!!!! goes in one hole comes out in another..very simple and enjoyable

stern is catering to the lowest common denominator by keeping it simple (on the playfield)

it's the same thing with arcade games. ask the operators why they end up taking out fantastic classic games like defender, stargate, tempest and q*bert
they're too hard for today's ADD youth that want instant gratification and can't be bothered with a game where they actually have to think

lol!!! its not confusing its called fun..capital F capital U capital N... am i right gary stern??

and usually has a flashing light that alerts you to it coming out.

This isn't super difficult... It's not the subway itself that's cool, whom gives a shit, it's the ability to make more creative designs on the PF (you may have heard peeps are kind of tired of the similar PFs).
Cant have a piano shot without a subway, can't shoot a STTNG cannon in a scoop without a subway, Cant have a whirpool without a subway.... Etc

thats right..not having subways really takes out a lot of fun from the game especially during multiball

right thats what was in my mind and like i said before multiball is way more enjoyable with subways

You guys are crazy if you think subways aren't confusing for inexperienced players. Ever watch a newb play CFTBL? Right into the drain without flipping.

who needs subways when you can spend $500 bucks on a topper?

Ever watch a newb try to start a game? Walks away without pressing the start button

Have you ever played a Stern today? Fucking scoops sent the ball SDTM most the time anyway ... They already added a ball saver when it happens so what's the difference? It happens a few times and you learn it.

Ok Then put in more DROP TARGETS if they are that confused Thats another awesome feature that is missing from majority of pins.Stern has WPT and thats probably the only thing i love about that game is the drop targets and the more people hate it the better,price is always great and reasonable on that pin

Gary Stern didn't buy Data East. He bought it when it was owned by Sega.

In any event, he was the president (or General Manager) of Date East and Sega, so he was making the calls the whole time.

Stern obtains the best licenses, thats for sure. Even a Stern enthusiast has to admit they would rather see JJP make a Star Wars pin.

They are a lower cost product, and in fairness, should not be compared. This is a Toyota to a Mercedes comparison. A Pro is sub 6k and a fully loaded JJP is 9,500.00.

Without Stern, this industry was dead a long time ago. They know how to make money, Im sure even at the lower price point they make more per machine than JJP. go and lift a JJP play field, you will see what I mean, the BOM must be more than a Stern Machine MSRP.

The difference is obvious, with a scoop the ball comes out of the same hole that it went into.

Question for you... What do Deadpool, Iron Maiden, Star Wars, Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, Mustang, Star Trek and Metallica have in common aside from being made by Stern in the last few years?

Missed my point. I understand you think people are so dumb they can't move their head 2 inches one way or the other, but they'll learn.
There's 2 kinds of noobs ; one that will be confused by anything and play once and leave, and those that want to learn. They'll figure it out.

Haha, baby time.

Anyway, for the grown ups, I think your making it more confusing than it needs to be. Subways usually lead to the same place. Take TZ, we know when the ball "disappears" it's going to come out of the slot machine. When it disappears in No Fear, it's coming out to the right flipper...it's repeatable and people can pick it up pretty quick. Sure of course some dumbasses will never learn but as it was mentioned before these poeple cant even launch the ball.

Nicely put and true.

they all have the same crappy layout with different titles...I'm not a noob and i have been playing pinball for many many years.Williams/Bally is King!!

It is unfortunate that some people do not want to understand pinball history, designs, or developments, but rather insult. If they did they might better understand why things happen the way they do in the industry, and move beyond the basics of playing games.

These become the caretakers of games for troubleshooting when the original designers, technicians, and manufacturers are long gone.

Oh, I guess I was confused... you said that drop targets are missing from the majority of recent pins. Even though that is clearly not true, evidenced by the long list of recent Sterns that have them (on the Pro models, no less).

You may not be a noob, but it's kinda confusing when you make claims that are completely wrong.

They are not all the same crappy layout. That's just hyperbole. There are different crappy layouts, too.

It's not hard to predict the features of recent Stern games though. To the people who love these games, it's the code that is most important anyway.

A new game needs to unseat STTNG as subway king!

look Pal, it started off as why there are no subways in Sterns,Someone above stated it was too confusing for them or other people.So,I said if they are confused by having subways put in more drop targets so it would be less confusing to them.

They do.

meaning?

thats right,dont get me wrong there are some stern games i really love like LOTR,BM66,Sopranos,WPT,SM,SMVE,ect. but the games that have music bands not so much because its the same game just slapped with a different band group.Stern has done a great job keeping our beloved hobby up and running.

Actually Pal, what you said was

and he is referenicning this part:

Which IS completely wrong. if the reason you like WPT is the abundance of drop targets then I don't know what to say. The rules of the game is what makes that game interesting. Most don't take time to understand it but the depth and strategy of that game can get pretty crazy.

In the good ole days their werern't subways. Shoot their weren't really even ramps.

You may not consider yourself a noob but this statement here means you either are or you are just prejudice towards Stern games. With the list of games he provided (Iron Maiden, Star Wars, Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, Mustang, Star Trek and Metallica) you have some pretty unique things from one another.

Don't know why you decided to come into the thread all "bull in a china shop" but damn, it's annoying...

Yeah, you're right. They are just different art packages...

Seriously, how can you say that with a straight face. Yes, AS and Kiss are VERY similar but AC/DC, Met, Maiden and the KISS/AS combo have very little in common at all, even down to the rules.

***edit*** Forgot about Rolling Stones. It's also pretty different. Not saying good, either.

i did not i came in very nice and easy...

those games (TO ME) are the same...

I find it interesting that people repeat the "subways are confusing" for noobs comment. Sure it is the first few times you play a game. Have you seen the games (and complicated controls & rule sets) people (many of them quite young) play on their gaming consoles. Are you saying that those people are so stupid that they can't figure out pinball? Of course they aren't. The difference is they don't pay $1 per turn to get their asses handed to them until they get good enough - they lose interest quick and don't bother to figure it out (drop more coin).

I understand that Stern has to attract money in the cashbox (from walkup casual players) but they also need to balance this with entertainment for the more serious players. That is why variety is the spice of life. Nobody is saying that every game needs subways - we are just saying that some games could benefit from it - just like some games could use to lose the pop-bumpers. Just mix up the formula a little bit more.

On the plus side, Stern is becoming a little more adventurous (perhaps less risk averse) so maybe someday soon we will see the return of more complex subways and such. As others have mentioned the variety would certainly add to more diverse rulesets - and most software developers I know like being challenged with new things.

Keep on flippin!

OP's question: Why doesn’t Stern use subways?

---They do.