Just thinking out loud here ... do any modern games NOT have outlanes?? Outlanes seem to naturally introduce randomness into pinball and detract from the skill needed to be a good player. Why don't the game rules simply dictate when the player loses a ball or turn (or "life" in traditional video games). Either complete a mode in a certain amount of time ... or make certain shots in a certain order (or even avoid hitting certain targets) or your turn ends (the flippers die and the ball drains down the middle). It would certainly help eliminate the perception that pinball is very random and skill only gets you so far. I'd like to see a game like this to try it ... someone start thinking out of the box.

I'm not saying there is no skill in pinball ... I'm simply saying outlanes in general introduce randomness and detract from it being even more of a skill game. Yes, there are strategies to make shots that keep the ball away from the outlanes, and yes, certainly you can "nudge" a game ... but why do we need them at all?? I think it would be cool to see a game where more focus was put on the player to consistently make ever increasing difficult shots.

For example .. AFM ... what if you had to destory the ship WITHOUT hitting either of the alien targets on both sides of the entrance to the ship? It would be interesting if there were more rules like "hit those aliens 2 or 3 times and you die ... ball drains". Rules like this put more emphasis on the player making accurate shots versus randomly getting rewarded for every target the ball flies around and hits. Additionally, it allows us to eliminate outlanes and remove a very random element to the game.

I also think this would provide a way to start the game easy and quickly make it harder and harder (kind of like how a Pac Man speeds up as you get to each next level). I think this style of play would go over much better in an arcade or on location.

No ... not at all (although time could be a factor to a certain rule). In my AFM example up above ... if you hit the alien targets to the right and left of the mother ship more than 4 or 5 times you "die" ... ball drains down the middle. Subsequent attacks on the mother ship might reduce that number to 1 or 2 (thus, increasing the difficulty as the game goes on.) I can think of dozens of unique rules that could end your turn/ball versus playing until the ball drains out an outlane.

I still hear people say all the time that pinball seems very random. They see that skill can help you but they still believe it is mostly luck/random. When ever there is a TV interview with someone in pinball inevitably the host will ask "so there is some skill in this then?" and the pinhead will have to defend/explain yes. I'm thinking of new ways to reduce the perception that there is a lot of randomness in pinball and increase the skills needed to be a great player.

Just another related pet peeve ... nudging. Shouldn't be needed. A little boy should be able to play the game just as easily as a 6 ft. 200 lb. muscular guy can. If you eliminate the outlanes and make the rules themselves the determining factor when your ball ends then you eliminate the need to nudge. Additionally, with no nudging, you eliminate the tilt mechanism altogether and now have a more consistent game from one location to the next. I hate walking into 1 location where you can practically slide the game around the floor and another where if you sneeze you get a tilt warning. Get rid of it.

I know all the pinball purists are out there screaming they love outlanes and nudging and pinball just the way it is. But if pinball never evolved it would not be anything like it is today (no flippers, no pop bumpers, etc. etc). Pinball is due for some new thinking out of the box.

lol. Come on now ....

I like your thinking! Now we just need a manufacturer willing to do more of it ... more game rules that end your turn instead of outlanes (or at least more rules that include penalties for hitting certain targets at certain times). I'm on a mission against outlanes now, lol.

1) Rules can be put in place to do the exact same thing! (Reduce ball time.) Just as Pac Man gets faster and faster each level, a pin can have similar rules as you progress through levels. Less time to complete a sequence of shots ... targets that, if hit a certain number of times end your ball (and that number of hits can decrease to just 1 so that as you get further in the game it gets more and more difficult, you can't make a mistake.)
2) I'm suggesting there is a better game strategy to be focusing on other then avoiding certain areas of the playfield. The player should be more engrossed in the theme and rules of that particular theme that end a given turn/ball.
3) I already made the argument in a previous post for why nudging should not be part of the game.

For those still not getting what I'm saying ... picture Stern's latest ST not having outlanes. You're battling the Vengence. 2 targets on either side of the Vengence (like AFM). You hit those targets 4 times (maybe each time you hit those by accident there's a callout "We've been hit!!") and then you're "dead", turn ends ... the flippers stop and the ball drains down the middle. Hit the Vengence enough times by avoiding those side targets and you reach the next "level". Second level, you hit those targets just 2 times and you're "dead" ball drains (difficulty increases). You could have shots where the lane to a target gets smaller and smaller with moving posts as the game progresses as well (thus making it more difficult.) Or get into a certain mode and either complete the shot sequence in time or you're "dead", ball drains. There are countless rules you could write to both limit the game time (by increasing difficulty at a certain pace) and keep the players attention on completing tasks rather then on just keeping the ball in play.

So did nobody enjoy pinball before flippers were introduced? Did nobody enjoy it before pop bumpers? The game has evovled significantly over the years to appeal to a wider and wider audience. While manufacturers have found new ways to "dress games up" (LED's, LCD, etc.) the game itself hasn't changed in a long time. Who says every pinball game has to have outlanes??

While nudging has come to be regarded as acceptable I don't think it was ever intended to be part of the game. The tilt mechanism itself had to be invented to keep people from knocking the hell out of a game. But the tilt mechanism was just a band-aid for what the real problem was ... why were people nudging to begin with?? Outlanes.

nudging is very easy for larger/stronger folks ... unfortunately young kids don't have quite that strength and thus, don't get to play the game like we think it is meant to be played. That's a shame.

Got it. Okay. In general it seems folks believe YES, pinball must have outlanes. Fair enough I guess. I've just had the feeling (since ST was revealed really) that we've pretty much beaten to death every original pinball design/layout given the current pinball elements people believe are required (pop bumpers, outlanes, at least 2 flippers, etc). All the crazy LED's, LCD, and bling don't change the fundamental game objectives and skill required.

I was only trying to think of something new ... some sort of new game design that still included a pinball and at least 2 flippers (because that's what I care about most) but was a somewhat radical departure from how pinball is played today. I think there could be an even better style game (and it's likely up to a new botique-style shop to create it.)

I guess it's time for me to buy a P-ROC and make my own game, lol!

Yet you have no issue with your ball accidentally flying down an outlane. Odd.

I don't know why anyone feels the need to get combative here. I asked a simple question for friendly discussion. Does pinball have to have outlanes? I just stated my own opinion that it would be nice to see an original game with 2 flippers and a pinball (and no outlanes). I'm not looking for a fight.