(Topic ID: 279350)

Why does pinball have an inverse value to age curve ?

By pookycade

3 years ago


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  • 31 posts
  • 23 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by ZNET
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    #1 3 years ago

    I think many of us consider ourselves to be collectors of sorts. In most collection hobbies rarity and age = $$$$. Think old cars. Not so with pinball. A pre-war flipperless machine is often lucky to score $100, EMs $300-500, early solid state $500-1500, Early DMD $2000-7000, modern DMD - LCD $5000-13000. Sure there are the rare birds that get you $15K for a woodrail, but they are clearly the exception. If I were to venture a guess it is that pinballs (regardless of age) are expected to be played, rather than sit roped off in a museum. I know that doesn’t entirely hold water, but it’s the best I can offer as a cogent explanation. There is of course the supply demand curve and obviously the older stuff has less demand than the newer stuff even if the supply is often much less just due to attrition. Thoughts ?

    #2 3 years ago

    With classic games it's purely nostalgia driven. Games that people played as kids and themes that remind collectors of being a kid reign supreme. There are some all time classic fun games, but themes/art that people still care about today will always transcend playability.

    It wasn't that long ago that woodrails were hot collectibles. Now all those collectors have what they want or are gone.

    #3 3 years ago
    Quoted from TreyBo69:

    With classic games it's purely nostalgia driven. Games that people played as kids and themes that remind collectors of being a kid reign supreme. There are some all time classic fun games, but themes/art that people still care about today will always transcend playability.

    I agree with this. There simply aren't many people still alive that were playing pinballs in the 1930s.

    There is also the fact that pins have far more bells and whistles these days. I love early SS pins, but if you compare...say...Eight ball deluxe to a JJP WOZ...there really isn't a comparison. They are incredibly different.

    You can also add in the fact that newer pins are typically far more reliable. Sure, there are outliers, but your average 1960 pin compared to one made in 2015 will simply have far more issues.

    #4 3 years ago
    Quoted from pookycade:

    I think many of us consider ourselves to be collectors of sorts. In most collection hobbies rarity and age = $$$$. Think old cars. Not so with pinball. A pre-war flipperless machine is often lucky to score $100, EMs $300-500, early solid state $500-1500, Early DMD $2000-7000, modern DMD - LCD $5000-13000. Sure there are the rare birds that get you $15K for a woodrail, but they are clearly the exception. If I were to venture a guess it is that pinballs (regardless of age) are expected to be played, rather than sit roped off in a museum. I know that doesn’t entirely hold water, but it’s the best I can offer as a cogent explanation. There is of course the supply demand curve and obviously the older stuff has less demand than the newer stuff even if the supply is often much less just due to attrition. Thoughts ?

    I disagree with your valuation range of prewar games and EMs. There are many prewar titles which regularly fetch in the $500 range. The $100 prewars tend to be of the basic bagatelle variety, which lack castings, trap holes and other mechanisms.

    Indeed, perhaps the most popular prewar game, Rockola World Series, regularly sells for $1K - $2,500+, not to mention Rockola World's Fair Jigsaw which fetches considerably more. Jigsaw is somewhat scarce; but, World's Series are quite commonly found.

    As for EMs, similarly, there are dozens of popular titles which regularly exchange hands for far greater than your $300 - $500 range. Most of the A-list Gottlieb wedgeheads sell for $1,200 - $5K for reasonably nice or prime examples. This range includes high-production titles like Atlantis and Surf Champ. Strange World and Blue Note/Rock Star, restored, are solidly at the high end of the range. TKOs fetch $8K+.

    Likewise, decent Bally EMs (60s and 70s era) fetch closer to $1K and the popular zipper flipper Bally EMs, like Cosmos, Fireball and others command much more. Bally Skyrocket, a particularly desirable EM, is an exception, fetching $2,500++.

    Your $300 - $500 range will buy a project EM game with cosmetic issues, perhaps a less desirable title or a Chicago Coin game. Woodrails have dipped in value over the last 5 years. Nevertheless, A-list and B-list Gottlieb and some Williams woodrail titles in excellent shape still regularly command $750 - $2,500+.

    I'm not including outliers like 1951 Mermaid nor 1979 Space Walk, which fetch $15K - $20K nor am I including Rockola Army Navy which sells for $13K - $20K. Regional differences affect prices. However, these ranges account for that variable.

    #5 3 years ago

    (Just a general comment)

    The OP asked a question whose answer has many contributing factors that must be considered at the same time. Many people have and will post things that might seem contradictory at first but really might all be right in different ways.

    Because of this it’s not even an easy question to ask but the spirit of the OP’s original makes sense when you add the word ***generally*** to it.

    I have a some 70’s Gottlieb wedgeheads but they are worth far more than the average 70’s EM which are indeed somewhere in the range the OP listed. More recent games , say 90’s DMDs are generally worth far more in general.

    As mentioned, one big part of the answer is supply and demand and each era in general has different supplies and different demands as well as each individual title released. These all gave to be considered when answering this question.

    #6 3 years ago

    I thought OP mean the owners......................

    #7 3 years ago
    Quoted from TreyBo69:

    With classic games it's purely nostalgia driven. Games that people played as kids and themes that remind collectors of being a kid reign supreme. There are some all time classic fun games, but themes/art that people still care about today will always transcend playability.
    It wasn't that long ago that woodrails were hot collectibles. Now all those collectors have what they want or are gone.

    Nailed it. Each era is going to want the games they grew up with, or themes that bring personal nostalgia. Even themes that are based on newer properties (say GOTG or even GoT) hit that note as reminding us of the superheros and fantasy stories we grew up with. The value keeps shifting as each generation "ages out" of the hobby, and the machines that are left from their era are less attractive to the next generation. The same is happening with classic cars. Muscle cars are still pretty hot as those that grew up with them (or who's parents had/loved them) are still around, but how many 20-40 year olds do you see going after the Model T, Model A, etc era? That is going to be the fate of the '60s muscle cars in another generation or two. Yes, some love will be passed down from generation to generation, but it will be less all the time.

    #8 3 years ago

    Because pinball fun factor is an inverse curve too

    #9 3 years ago

    New pins are more expensive due to the cost of innovation and the sheer quantities of materials included.

    #10 3 years ago

    Basically pins are priced based on how fun they are.

    Wedgeheads will bring more than System 1 games because they’re more fun.

    I see TZ selling for $10K and it’s nearly 30 years old.

    #11 3 years ago

    It is the same with cars. Cars from the 40s and 50s have decreased in value substantially, because most of the nostalgia market is dying and the newer generations don't really care as much. But cars from the 60's and 70
    s have shot up in value.

    The Pontiac Trans Ams are a perfect example of it. Pretty soon the crapy cars from the 80's will be worth something.

    #12 3 years ago

    Cause its a game and EM's are no where near as fun as Solid States and SS aren't as good as 90's DMDs etc.
    Very few collectors are buying based on rarity and age. U build a collection of pins based on what's fun to play.

    #13 3 years ago
    Quoted from Methos:

    The Pontiac Trans Ams are a perfect example of it. Pretty soon the crapy cars from the 80's will be worth something.

    Some of the 80's sports cars would be nice to own always loved that 80's Porsche from Scarface but 90's and beyond? nope its finished. My '99 BMW looks almost the same as a 2019 BMW. My '99 Caddy isn't worth shit but a 1969 Caddy. The era of collectible cars being produced is over, just like music legends or great epic films, its a different time.

    #14 3 years ago
    Quoted from spinal:

    (Just a general comment)
    The OP asked a question whose answer has many contributing factors that must be considered at the same time. Many people have and will post things that might seem contradictory at first but really might all be right in different ways.
    Because of this it’s not even an easy question to ask but the spirit of the OP’s original makes sense when you add the word ***generally*** to it.
    I have a some 70’s Gottlieb wedgeheads but they are worth far more than the average 70’s EM which are indeed somewhere in the range the OP listed. More recent games , say 90’s DMDs are generally worth far more in general.
    As mentioned, one big part of the answer is supply and demand and each era in general has different supplies and different demands as well as each individual title released. These all gave to be considered when answering this question.

    All answers are fine by me, I’m interested in people’s thoughts here. But you are correct I did say generally and generally those price ranges are true that I gave. There are always outliers. I also agree cars and what you grew up with are perhaps the best imperfect analogy. But say with art or stamps or baseball cards, those economics don’t hold true. The older = more valuable. Perhaps simply because materials costs regardless of age is about the same across the board with those endeavors. Interestingly even games like Humpty Dumpty don’t command top dollar ($1500 for the first game with flippers - terrible to play though it is - is still pretty cheap). There are all these firsts (bumpers, electronic scoring, two levels, multiball, etc) that one would think should be highly sought after but aren’t. You see this too (to some degree) in Bronze Age video games. Computer Space and Pong still command a relatively high $ amount but others not so much. I suppose that’s good for me as that is likely where I am headed more in the coming years as I have a lot of interest on the history of the game. Certainly cheaper and takes less space than collecting cars. I do wonder as pinball becomes more like antiques and less active industry if this value curve will revert to more traditional antique type valuations.

    #16 3 years ago

    If anyone has a lead on a $100 pre-war game, please let me know! I'm only finding them in the $900 to $1800 range.

    #17 3 years ago
    Quoted from Hazoff:

    Cause its a game and EM's are no where near as fun as Solid States and SS aren't as good as 90's DMDs etc.
    Very few collectors are buying based on rarity and age. U build a collection of pins based on what's fun to play.

    100%. Problem with pins are they are extremely large, difficult to move, and require maintenance. Few are going to bother with that and if you are, you want something you are going to play and enjoy.

    #18 3 years ago

    If we ever have an EMP or solar event that fries or damages sensitive electrical components our EM collections will skyrocket. Course at that point pinball would be the least of our worries.

    Unfortunately in the past I think events like this also hurt basic coils and theories on polarity/magnetism in components you find in EMs.

    #19 3 years ago

    Pre War games must be a regional thing because I rarely see them for sale out here. I suppose Arizona wasn’t as largely populated then, so there’s not a lot of them here.
    Certainly not for $100 or else I would own a bunch of them.

    #20 3 years ago
    Quoted from Daditude:

    You can also add in the fact that newer pins are typically far more reliable. Sure, there are outliers, but your average 1960 pin compared to one made in 2015 will simply have far more issues.

    This is not true. EM games tend to be far more reliable, so long as they get played. No chips to fry, no capacitors to leak, no batteries to corrode and leak.

    Pure mechanical.

    #21 3 years ago
    Quoted from ZNET:

    I disagree with your valuation range of prewar games and EMs. There are many prewar titles which regularly fetch in the $500 range. The $100 prewars tend to be of the basic bagatelle variety, which lack castings, trap holes and other mechanisms.
    Indeed, perhaps the most popular prewar game, Rockola World Series, regularly sells for $1K - $2,500+, not to mention Rockola World's Fair Jigsaw which fetches considerably more. Jigsaw is somewhat scarce; but, World's Series are quite commonly found.
    As for EMs, similarly, there are dozens of popular titles which regularly exchange hands for far greater than your $300 - $500 range. Most of the A-list Gottlieb wedgeheads sell for $1,200 - $5K for reasonably nice or prime examples. This range includes high-production titles like Atlantis and Surf Champ. Strange World and Blue Note/Rock Star, restored, are solidly at the high end of the range. TKOs fetch $8K+.
    Likewise, decent Bally EMs (60s and 70s era) fetch closer to $1K and the popular zipper flipper Bally EMs, like Cosmos, Fireball and others command much more. Bally Skyrocket, a particularly desirable EM, is an exception, fetching $2,500++.
    Your $300 - $500 range will buy a project EM game with cosmetic issues, perhaps a less desirable title or a Chicago Coin game. Woodrails have dipped in value over the last 5 years. Nevertheless, A-list and B-list Gottlieb and some Williams woodrail titles in excellent shape still regularly command $750 - $2,500+.
    I'm not including outliers like 1951 Mermaid nor 1979 Space Walk, which fetch $15K - $20K nor am I including Rockola Army Navy which sells for $13K - $20K. Regional differences affect prices. However, these ranges account for that variable.

    Yes agreed a mint restored desirable EM is not even close to $500. But if you ran off a list of pinside price guides for EMs and did the same for DMDs they aren’t in the same ballpark. And yet say we are talking about toy collections. A reasonably good condition pre-war it even 1960s and 70s toy doll is going to best in price by an order of magnitude many times compared to what the doll costs I can go buy down at Walmart. I guess what I’m saying is that I am surprised there is not more of a market and desirability for early pins. Case in point we had a working Silver woodrail with new repro backglass and plastics, and we struggled to get $350 out of it. I do agree that a lot of this is that desirability is more commonly defined by “fun to play” in our hobby than “old stuff that’s cool to own”. Woodrails are no way near as fun to play. This view is supported by the fact my wife would allow a woodrail to sit in the living room but not a DMD. To her she only judges it as art to display, not funness to play. What I am wondering is whether our hobby is ever going to move more towards the kinda market you have for old Coke machines and jukeboxes, versus the focus we have now which is nice, shiny, new. I am not taking sides here. I have everything from 30s to 2020. But I will say I am becoming more interested in the early history games than I am the latest Stern or JJP. It’s nice to know that there is some much room for everyone to pursue their own passion and interests in this space. And I think the continued production of games is indicative of the strength of this hobby. When pins have just become collectible old items you will know the industry has finally died.

    #22 3 years ago
    Quoted from dsuperbee:

    This is not true. EM games tend to be far more reliable, so long as they get played. No chips to fry, no capacitors to leak, no batteries to corrode and leak.
    Pure mechanical.

    Node boards.....you forgot node boards

    #23 3 years ago

    pinball only got fun around the early 90s for allot of people... even as a kid I thought most 70s and 80s pins were a snooze.

    I stuck to arcade games... my dads bowling alley must have had 15 pins from the 70s I rarely if ever put a quarter in any of them.

    #24 3 years ago
    Quoted from dsuperbee:

    This is not true. EM games tend to be far more reliable, so long as they get played. No chips to fry, no capacitors to leak, no batteries to corrode and leak.
    Pure mechanical.

    I am not referring to the parts, but to the playability. While it is true that a *great condition* EM from 1960 could be more reliable...most of them are not currently in great condition. Things can (and will) always go wrong with pinballs, hence the increased reliability with newness.

    As per my previous example, there are likely less than 5% of all 1960 machines even playable whatsoever, whereas pins made in 2015 are still in abundance in HUO, excellent, and even brand new condition.

    Sans fully restored items, age equals wear. When you are talking about items that are meant to be used/played...wear is inevitable. That is the point I was getting at.

    As with any collectible, there are numerous outliers. Supply and demand is always king, however. Nostalgia, media, well-known collectors, etc can all add to the demand. Demand is the far more important component if the process. Actual workable/useable items like pinballs just add another dimension to the possible collectibility.

    #25 3 years ago

    It’s actually just boils down to when the item had its best appeal. You mentioned stamps/cards/dolls. Not much innovation there just art and supply. Earlier examples of those are best in an earlier time period with the challenge to find things in short supply today.

    Pinball innovation has peaked now. Earlier machines just tried to get your quarter. Now they have staying power with much more to do. Enough old machines exist to satisfy diehards. Modern ones are not to everyone’s taste but I would say the majority like the new ones especially first time pinball players

    Mike V

    #26 3 years ago

    My preliminary apologies for this long post. If you're inclined to skip it, I urge readers to check out the 2 links at the end.

    There are a lot of valid opinions in these "value trend" threads. In the end, the same arguments tend to surface, e.g. the perennial nostalgia "cargument," the "dying out collector" contention, the "old technology isn't as much fun" theory, the "irrelevant Americana motif" notion. I suggest that while there's a kernel of truth to these stereotypical observations, no single point has predicted the ebb and flow of pinball pricing these past 35 years. As evidence, I offer the fact that prewar game prices have steadily risen during that period, particularly notable over the last 15 years and even more so in the last 3 years. Since these prewar games were on location in the mid-1930s, the persons who actually played any of those games on location would be over 100 years old today. Those centenarians are not buying these games, needless to say. Thus, the "dying out collector" contention fails to explain why prewar prices have actually steadily risen. Prewar enthusiasts, like me, never played these prewar games on location.

    I am 61 years-old. We are men and woman who love coin-op in general. We likely have trade stimulators, soda machines, stamp machines, and/or EM arcades punctuating our pinball line-ups. We appreciate the magnificent ingenuity and inventiveness of the prewar game designers. We have learned that very little in today's modern games is new. The 1930s prewar designers included, flippers, ramps, kick-out holes, trap holes, multiplier scoring, multiball modes, mystery specials, light shows, ball advance features, you name it. Once an enthusiast discovers this fact, he/she tends to broaden his/her pinball horizons and may want to acquire a prewar game or two. I recommend that prewar neophytes google "Rockola World's Series," "Jigsaw" and "Army Navy" as a primer to the marvel that is the prewar era.

    Another factor which affects price is the expanding "age of information." Early in the hobby, EM parts were difficult to find. Many enthusiasts would shy away from EMs, fearful about the ability to repair a game and/or secure a required part. Collectors relied on trade magazines, limited pinball and Americana-type events, the Google group: rec.gamespinball and the yahoo prewar pinball group. Pinside was in its nascent stage. Often, a collector would have to fabricate parts. Within the last 5 years, in particular, access to parts has burgeoned. For example, the EM Facebook group began in late 2014. Today, 6 years later, it boasts a membership of 7,200 enthusiasts. Members post videos of malfunctioning games and obtain excellent trouble-shooting advice within minutes. Pinside repair threads offer similar help. Also, the advent of 3D printing has greatly expanded the ability to create previously unobtainable unique parts.

    As others here have stated, prewar and EM games, when played regularly, are far more reliable than solid state games. With regard to woodrails, I find many of the 1954 Gottliebs to offer as much fun or more fun than any other pinball from any era. That's because those games were designed for the player's enjoyment, as opposed to operator profit, which had a greater design influence in the years to follow. The year 1954 is notable: Gottlieb Grand Slam, Niagara, Daisy May (and 1952 Queen of Hearts, the favorite of famed designer Wayne Neyens) and many others are examples of pinball's pinnacle, in terms of player-oriented objectives. Each offers multiple paths to a special. As I recall, Grand Slam offer 7 routes to same. Moreover, the Roy Parker art on these games is no less than spectacular.

    My line-up has been populated by 1930s games and every decade thereafter, up through JJP's WOZECLE and Stern's The Beatles. I love the classic Bally-Williams titles (e.g. TZ, AFM, CFTBL) and the classic Sterns (e.g. Stars, Medusa, Fathom, Quicksilver). Gradually, I have concentrated mostly on EMs, with 70s pinball and arcade games having the greatest appeal to me. I suspect that enthusiasts who dismiss "older games" as slow, boring or otherwise inferior have probably relied on poorly-shopped games, played at shows, or else many have never immersed themselves in the best representative titles of the era, in well-tuned condition.

    I'm an advisor on a documentary film entitled "Arcade Dreams" (formerly entitled Welcome to Arcadia), to be released in theaters and/or perhaps on Netflix 2021. In that film, we seek to explore the history of pinball and arcade machines. The vibe is sort of PBS meets MTV. I think that many Pinsiders will enjoy it. Here's the 3 minute trailer:

    https://arcadedocumentary.com/

    Below is a 12 minute mini-documentary segment (filmed in my basement---to resemble an arcade) in which I discuss the history of EM arcades, including classics like Sega's Gun Fight, and how those games were the progenitors of modern home video games. Here's the link:

    https://vimeo.com/373213017/6b7c121826

    The director and crew previously made the documentary "Viva Amiga," a retro love letter to fans and creators of the Commodore Amiga, a machine which changed the way people viewed computers. They have a plethora of fantastic footage for Arcade Dreams, enough for a series. Arcade Dreams is an overdue tribute to all that we love about pinball and arcades, and its nod to history really helps us understand the games we play and enjoy so much today.

    #27 3 years ago

    To me a clean unrestored EM is worth more then the others.
    I could buy a new pin but I really don't know what I'm looking for. I will know when I see it, haven't yet.
    Restored Ems are just as much fun (and sometimes more) as SS and newer machines (to me).
    Don't feel like learning a whole new repair system so would rather play newer machines somewhere and go home. Would rather own machines that don't baffle me (EM and early SS).
    Its like cassette/ digital/memory stick/hardrive/ Cloud. By the time I learn one System another is threatening to replace it. So now I'm stuck between 1930-2005 technology and refuse to progress.
    The way of the World.

    #28 3 years ago
    Quoted from TopMoose:

    If anyone has a lead on a $100 pre-war game, please let me know! I'm only finding them in the $900 to $1800 range.

    There's a fella outside of Boston selling a ton (at least 50 machines) of early stuff, but most of them have this or that wrong (missing glass, damaged whatever, etc.) and they aren't quite that cheap but still mostly in the hundreds, not thousands. I got an email from him weeks ago with his price list, but I think I recently saw him post it to one of the many Facebook pinball groups.

    #29 3 years ago
    Quoted from Elvishasleft:

    pinball only got fun around the early 90s for allot of people... even as a kid I thought most 70s and 80s pins were a snooze.
    I stuck to arcade games... my dads bowling alley must have had 15 pins from the 70s I rarely if ever put a quarter in any of them.

    I worked in arcades as a teenager in the late 80's. I could play anything for free but rarely played pins. Just wasn't too interesting compared to all the video games. It wasn't until the the early 90's when pins started having recognizable themes and interactive toys that I started to get interested.

    #30 3 years ago
    Quoted from ZNET:

    I'm an advisor on a documentary film entitled "Arcade Dreams" (formerly entitled Welcome to Arcadia), to be released in theaters and/or perhaps on Netflix 2021. In that film, we seek to explore the history of pinball and arcade machines. The vibe is sort of PBS meets MTV. I think that many Pinsiders will enjoy it. Here's the 3 minute trailer:
    https://arcadedocumentary.com/
    Below is a 12 minute mini-documentary segment (filmed in my basement---to resemble an arcade) in which I discuss the history of EM arcades, including classics like Sega's Gun Fight, and how those games were the progenitors of modern home video games. Here's the link:
    https://vimeo.com/373213017/6b7c121826
    The director and crew previously made the documentary "Viva Amiga," a retro love letter to fans and creators of the Commodore Amiga, a machine which changed the way people viewed computers. They have a plethora of fantastic footage for Arcade Dreams, enough for a series. Arcade Dreams is an overdue tribute to all that we love about pinball and arcades, and its nod to history really helps us understand the games we play and enjoy so much today.

    That looks like it will be a fun documentary to watch. Thanks for sharing the links.

    1 week later
    #31 3 years ago
    Quoted from RyanStl:

    That looks like it will be a fun documentary to watch. Thanks for sharing the links.

    I am thrilled to announce that the official Arcade Dreams film kickstarter has begun today, October 21, 2020!

    I'm a producer and advisor on this documentary. Thanks in advance for your support. Here are the links:

    Kickstarter - https://bit.ly/ArcadeDoc
    Homepage - https://arcadedocumentary.com/
    Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/ArcadeDreamsDoc
    Twitter - https://twitter.com/arcadedreamsdoc
    Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/arcadedreamsdoc
    YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7o15moM4mrnDUR8tG3R3Bg

    Reply

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