(Topic ID: 251236)

Why does IFPA allow preplays in leagues?


By TechnicalSteam

11 months ago



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  • 18 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 months ago by TigerLaw
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    -1
    #1 11 months ago

    Last night I got a bit angry at league night. #1 I was playing against 2 individuals that opted for Preplay.
    I suppose it would be fine accept that the scores on these sheets were ridiculously high. There is no
    one present to monitor the games or buddy system or anything in our local league. I've noticed that
    some people use the Preplay scores as a tactic to increase their performance.

    #1. There has to be a more fair and just system to deal with absenteeism in league.

    #2. Players that don't attend should not be eligible for Bonus Points

    #3. Why can't I preplay a Tournament vs League?

    #4. What consequence should places that don't use preplay's correctly.

    Was going to rant on our local pinball league group but I honestly don't know the precise rules that are in place.

    #2 11 months ago

    Preplay is what i would consider qualifying and not what gets submitted to the IFPA. It is usually used for seeding or some other benefit prior to the actual IFPA event.

    Im not sure if my feedback helps as its hard to understand some of the context you’re using. For example, ive never heard the term “preplay” before. I assume that just means submitting qualifying scores for an event that will be held in the future.

    #3 11 months ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    There is no one present to monitor the games or buddy system or anything in our local league.

    The league I'm in allows preplays but they have to be done in the presence of another league player. Whether the scores are accurate 100% of the time I have no idea and never made an issue of it. Where I play if someone submits what would be a grand champion score their initials should be on the machine anyway.

    The reason they're allowed in the first place is to allow people to participate in league and if something comes up like work or vacation you can use preplays instead of taking a forfeit.

    #4 11 months ago
    Quoted from VectorGamer:

    The league I'm in allows preplays but they have to be done in the presence of another league player. Whether the scores are accurate 100% of the time I have no idea and never made an issue of it. Where I play if someone submits what would be a grand champion score their initials should be on the machine anyway.
    The reason they're allowed in the first place is to allow people to participate in league and if something comes up like work or vacation you can use preplays instead of taking a forfeit.

    Another Problem with Preplays
    Machines - may not perform the same as when Preplays were completed.
    Example Right Flipper not firing correctly on Day A. but working perfect day b.

    Sems that there should just be some kind of 2 weeks grace period just given to players. They can miss out if they need to without having to use preplays scores.

    #5 11 months ago

    What is your league format? There is a set of selfie league rules within the IFPA book, and as mentioned above these act as qualifiers, but do not actually count towards the tournament games or value.

    If you are playing against a score from yesterday, I agree with you, it isn't right. There is a lot of differences in strategy and mental focus when playing alone, let alone the environmental changes and game setup. And then there are plenty of cheating opportunities.

    Preplay definitely contradicts the spirit of IFPA, which requires head-to-head play for a full value tournament or league.

    I run a league that drops the worst week's score for each player. So if they attend 3 out of 4 weeks, they can still be competitive. It works really well and is a better alternative than allowing players to play independently.

    #6 11 months ago

    You're going to have to explain your league format and how 'preplay' works more clearly

    #7 11 months ago

    This really doesn't sound like it has anything to do with the IFPA. If you've got beef with how the league is run, you need to take it up with the league director.

    #8 11 months ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    #1. There has to be a more fair and just system to deal with absenteeism in league

    We get zeros if we are not present for recording our league scores. Pre plays are only used for initial groupings and tie breakers.

    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    #2. Players that don't attend should not be eligible for Bonus Points

    Agreed.

    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    #3. Why can't I preplay a Tournament vs League?

    I was unaware preplay scores were allowed to be used to actually count in determining TGP. If they aren’t, then there’s your answer. Tournaments want every play to count, so using one score to count multiple times is not allowed.

    #9 11 months ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Another Problem with Preplays
    Machines - may not perform the same as when Preplays were completed.
    Example Right Flipper not firing correctly on Day A. but working perfect day b.

    True.

    I guess you take pinball league pretty seriously then. I just go to drink beer and play pinball.

    #10 11 months ago

    Here is the verbiage from the IFPA that I think would relate to "preplays" . As I mentioned in my first post I've never actually heard the term before but it just sounds like the submission of an unverified selfie score. As mentioned below, they're just used for seeding and possibly some other advantages.

    "Certain formats (Selfie Leagues, TOPS Tournaments, etc) rely on players submitting their own results without the verification of a TD or authorized scorekeeper on site. Any qualifying format that includes “unverified” results where a TD, league official, or authorized scorekeeper is not present to record their score, will not have the qualifying portion included in the TGP calculation. The IFPA will classify these qualifying formats as strictly for seeding purposes, with only the finals format counting towards the TGP calculation."

    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    #3. Why can't I preplay a Tournament vs League?

    You can't preplay a tournament because the IFPA requires direct competition with a Tournament Director present. This is the case for a League or Tournament where the games played will actually count towards the submission to the IFPA.

    The IFPA will no longer endorse tournaments that don’t have a DIRECT play component as part of the format. DIRECT play represents multiple players (up to a max of 4) playing against one another on a given game (head-to-head or in a group).

    As someone mentioned, it sounds like you're not happy with the "qualifying" portion of the league and if it doesn't have a TD, league official or authorized scorekeeper present it won't and shouldn't affect the submission to the IFPA.

    Source - https://www.ifpapinball.com/menu/ranking-info/

    #11 11 months ago
    Quoted from zacaj:

    You're going to have to explain your league format and how 'preplay' works more clearly

    Not that I expect you or anyone else to actually go through this, but our SLAP leagues (St. Louis Area Pinball) follow FSPA rules... more or less:

    http://fspazone.org/players-guide/

    #12 11 months ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Last night I got a bit angry at league night. #1 I was playing against 2 individuals that opted for Preplay.

    Use one of your drops. Looks like your league allows 3 preplay rounds or 3 drops out of ten to still qualify for finals.

    In order for the IFPA to recognize this portion of your league, that means every player needs to play at least 50% of this portion, or 4 weeks. They don’t count dropped weeks as part of the league, and neither does your league.

    I don’t understand using preplays though, especially with that many weeks. If they can’t play that week, take a zero and drop it.

    So to answer your question, the IFPA doesn’t allow preplays and since they are only looking at your league for the weeks outside of those 3, preplay or drop weeks, it’s all good.

    1 week later
    #13 10 months ago

    So the answer is IFPA only allows "Verified Preplays" meaning that someone witnessed the event?

    How does IFPA police this sort of thing?

    #14 10 months ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    So the answer is IFPA only allows "Verified Preplays" meaning that someone witnessed the event?
    How does IFPA police this sort of thing?

    They don’t. They require that a TD verify the scores. If they receive no word that the scores were unverified, they assume everything is okay.

    #15 10 months ago

    Guess I missed this thread somehow. I run the league and thought I'd throw out some input.

    We allow pre-plays because sometimes life gets in the way of pinball. An unexpected illness, family vacation, travel for work, etc. Is it a perfect system, probably not, but does it encourage players that might not be able to play otherwise....most definitely.

    I've always tried to run all of my events so they are competitive enough for players that want the competition and relaxed enough for players that just want a reason to get out of the house and socialize every week. It's a very difficult balance.

    Look at it this way. All highly competitive players started from casual players. What if I told all the new people that if you miss a night you get a big fat zero for all 4 games, which will most likely put you at the bottom and excluded from playoffs? It probably wouldn't go over too well.

    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Another Problem with Preplays
    Machines - may not perform the same as when Preplays were completed.
    Example Right Flipper not firing correctly on Day A. but working perfect day b.

    There may be subtle differences between days, but if a flipper isn't working correctly or there is another major issue, we pull the game and re-assign players to a new game. Worst case scenario is that a switch might not be registering on a given day. That might pose a slight advantage one way or another, but I've "chalked it up" as negligible.

    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Was going to rant on our local pinball league group but I honestly don't know the precise rules that are in place.

    Might want to check with your TD on rules. They should be able to provide you with a copy of them. We use the FSPA rule set, for the most part. I have a Player's Guide I hand out that outlines the general structure of the league along with the adaptations we've made from the FSPA rule set.

    #16 10 months ago

    Hahahahaha, you're still going on about this? I was going to sit on my hands and stay mum, but this is getting pretty goofy.

    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    I suppose it would be fine accept that the scores on these sheets were ridiculously high.

    Have you considered they were high because the player played well, and, sorry to break it to you, better than you?

    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    I've noticed that
    some people use the Preplay scores as a tactic to increase their performance.

    What you've NOTICED is that people sometimes preplay. You are INFERRING a reason they do so. I preplayed once in the course of 30 weeks. For a medical situation. It was an important week, and I was thankful the league was flexible. Our league limits it to what, two preplays?

    This is pinball, I'm sorry you're miffed you are not as good as others, but what you're doing is nothing more than assuming, excusing your poor play, and accusing others of cheating, all of which is uncool.

    #17 10 months ago

    Preplays are okay when someone else plays with the person to verify it.

    It just seems folks here pick the best one of 15 games or write down something in between the season average or make up a number.

    Then they can also get "bonus points" for their questionable solo play scores. This just doesn't seem to be what pinball is about.

    I hate playing against people that don't show up and use preplays. Everyone questions the score and it usually derails the entire group.
    Especially when your playing 2x people who had preplays. Talk about lame.

    Additionally it seems like a maintenance nightmare. Now TDS are on the hook for tracking all the scores and making sure they are publically available.

    And not changing the scores after the fact. Played a bunch of games only to have the Preplay Score change at end of night even after it was publically published is lame.

    -1
    #18 10 months ago

    Have you considered they were high because the player played well, and, sorry to break it to you, better than you?

    Not when the score changes over night. Not when the pre-play was played solo. I'd do real well if I didn't have 3 other
    folks interrupting my game. Do you understand?

    #19 10 months ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Preplays are okay when someone else plays with the person to verify it.

    If your league allows scores to be submitted without verification, that’s disallowed by the IFPA.

    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    It just seems folks here pick the best one of 15 games or write down something in between the season average or make up a number.

    If you think people are cheating, why not raise concerns to the TDs of your league?

    All your concerns need to be discussed with your league TDs. We can’t really help you.

    #20 10 months ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    When you have scores that can not be verified how can they count.

    They don’t. It’s thats simple. The IFPA does not allow unverified scores to be submitted.

    -2
    #21 10 months ago

    What if the TD's allow this to go on? Is that still acceptable? That is the whole point TDs let people solo preplay here for years.
    You can grab the preplay sheet any night fill out any score you want and leave. No one would be the wiser except if you made
    to good of a score and it didn't show up on the High scores the next day. This happened and we forfeit that score. However
    SOLO preplays are not the same as a group Preplay. There is someone there to vouch. That doesn't happen with everyone in
    our league.

    We have folks playing in 3x leagues a week using SOLO preplay scores that usually end up being the season's best. How does that make for a fair system.

    It would be better to just have a set # of nights established a player can miss without this system. That would ensure that no one ever cheat.

    #22 10 months ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    What if the TD's allow this to go on? Is that still acceptable? That is the whole point TDs let people solo preplay here for years.

    What did the IFPA say when you reported this to them? They are the only ones that can help you.

    #23 10 months ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Especially when your playing 2x people who had preplays. Talk about lame.

    One night I was in a 3 player group and the other two players weren't there and had preplays. After two games of playing by myself I told the TD just to use my preplays for my final two games and I left cuz it wasn't any fun.

    Yeah that league night sucked. But shit happens like real life. What are you gonna do?

    #24 10 months ago

    Just what we do locally is have Thursday night league night, with a Make-up Monday. If you know you will be gone from league night but know you can attend Monday we place you in the group you would be placed with anyway (we group players by your weekly average points). If we do not know that you will be there for makeup Monday you are left out of a group and if we have at least 3 players in the same boat on Monday we form a group out of those 3 players. All games are observed by the director though.

    #25 10 months ago
    Quoted from VectorGamer:

    Yeah that league night sucked. But shit happens like real life. What are you gonna do?

    Disallow preplays completely. Allow x number of dropped scores for when life happens.

    -1
    #26 10 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    What did the IFPA say when you reported this to them? They are the only ones that can help you.

    Would they really do anything? Brought to it to their attention and just got bullied by some folks.
    Really uncool but guess they don't want to follow own rules.

    #27 10 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Disallow preplays completely. Allow x number of dropped scores for when life happens.

    Not understanding how that prevents me showing up on league night when nobody else from my group is there.

    I was in a bowling league years ago and they had the same rules with pre-bowling. My team would show up and the other team wasn't there. At least in that case we could bowl three games with each other and socialize although it made for a quick night. Playing pinball by yourself on league night sucks though.

    #28 10 months ago
    Quoted from VectorGamer:

    Not understanding how that prevents me showing up on league night when nobody else from my group is there.
    I was in a bowling league years ago and they had the same rules with pre-bowling. My team would show up and the other team wasn't there. At least in that case we could bowl three games with each other and socialize although it made for a quick night. Playing pinball by yourself on league night sucks though.

    Pinball isn't bowling. And that is truly lame that the team didn't show up. Imagine if this happened in baseball or hockey.

    #29 10 months ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Would they really do anything? Brought to it to their attention and just got bullied by some folks.
    Really uncool but guess they don't want to follow own rules.

    Then I suggest you quit the league. And yes I fully expect the IFPA to step in if a league format is being abused.

    #30 10 months ago
    Quoted from VectorGamer:

    Not understanding how that prevents me showing up on league night when nobody else from my group is there.

    This is why we don’t play in groups together for our league. 100% play when you can verified by TDS. Finals are played with everyone together.

    In your case the only way to do this is to wait to run groupings until you have rsvps from everyone in the league.

    #31 10 months ago

    Quit saying you got bullied. You come out accusing a bunch of really nice and respected people of cheating, and continue to whine.

    These leagues have run over 200,000 games of play. You've been a part of about 20 of them.

    If you can't bring up concerns to the super nice TDs in a normal way, and instead prefer to go in FB groups and pinball forums straight up making unfounded accusations that good people are cheating, maybe this isn't the league for you?

    Screenshot_20190924-103704_Chrome (resized).jpg

    #32 10 months ago

    We used to do pre-plays and they are a major pain in the ass. Now we just drop your two lowest scoring weeks.

    #33 10 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    This is why we don’t play in groups together for our league. 100% play when you can verified by TDS. Finals are played with everyone together.
    In your case the only way to do this is to wait to run groupings until you have rsvps from everyone in the league.

    Well in my case this happened only 1 time in the over 3 years that I've played in league. I only mentioned it cuz it was the only thing I agreed with OP that playing by yourself on league night does suck. Otherwise, I think the way our league is organized and run is just fine. Just one of those deals for that night...

    #34 10 months ago
    Quoted from wlf_:

    Quit saying you got bullied. You come out accusing a bunch of really nice and respected people of cheating, and continue to whine.
    These leagues have run over 200,000 games of play. You've been a part of about 20 of them.
    Leave our league, please.[quoted image]

    Someone just called me up from their office exchange and threatened me with violence. "Unknown Number" you suck.

    #35 10 months ago

    Chris, if you've been threatened with violence, you shouldn't be posting on a pinball forum about it. The emergency number is 911. Have your pinball rulebook ready.

    Was someone there to verify? Would hate for them to blow you off by saying you're lying, just like you're saying everyone who plays you on preplays lies

    #36 10 months ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Preplays are okay when someone else plays with the person to verify it.

    That's how we do it. Scores have to be witnessed by another member and your intention to preplay must be announced to that member prior to starting the preplay.

    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    It just seems folks here pick the best one of 15 games or write down something in between the season average or make up a number.
    Then they can also get "bonus points" for their questionable solo play scores. This just doesn't seem to be what pinball is about.

    That's a shame and should be brought to the attention of the TD.

    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    I hate playing against people that don't show up and use preplays. Everyone questions the score and it usually derails the entire group.
    Especially when your playing 2x people who had preplays. Talk about lame.

    I've never encountered that before in my league. No one has every accused anyone of submitting a falsified preplay.

    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Additionally it seems like a maintenance nightmare. Now TDS are on the hook for tracking all the scores and making sure they are publically available.

    It definitely is a pain in the ass. Believe me, I'm the one entering preplay scores for 30 people. But, it's all part of being a TD. It's not all puppies and kittens when you're running a league.

    I spend hours each week working on the administrative side of things, entering preplays, setting up for league, printing out scoresheets, updating the website, coordinating with the venue, submitting scores, sending out emails and the list goes on and on.

    There is a lot more work than people think and if you have ever done it before, you'll find it is an absolutely thankless job.

    #37 10 months ago

    You seem to really like the edit feature on sites, hard to keep track of your story.

    I'm bowing out, I'll just reference what Adam said again. There were a million better ways to nicely bring up concerns, and hopefully next time, that can be considered.

    SLAP is an amazing community, and the TDs, as with most TDs, are super nice and responsive. There's room for everyone there, including you, genuinely

    #38 10 months ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    That's how we do it. Scores have to be witnessed by another member and your intention to preplay must be announced to that member prior to starting the preplay.

    That's a shame and should be brought to the attention of the TD.

    Playing like that is exactly what needs to be done. It sets up a system of trust, encourages community and really makes it bulletproof.

    You got it right when you say it's a thankless job. Hey your doing a great job following the rules and making pinball fun.

    #39 10 months ago
    Quoted from wlf_:

    Chris, if you've been threatened with violence, you shouldn't be posting on a pinball forum about it. The emergency number is 911. Have your pinball rulebook ready.
    Was someone there to verify? Would hate for them to blow you off by saying you're lying, just like you're saying everyone who plays you on preplays lies

    I have taken down my post to the SLAP pinball page. Really didn't think anyone would get so worked up over a simple question. I'm used to dealing with a whole different type of people in discussing issues. Most people took my comment as a personal attack even though I didn't mention anyone by name. I've been discussing the Preplay issue with several people during league and outside of league for several weeks. Just wanted to open up and talk about it as I finely had gotten some answers as to what the rules concerning preplay actually were. "A verified intentional game witnessed by TD or Person".

    The flak that came out of this was more than I wanted. A simple answer would of sufficed but my wording must of come about wrong. Hence my numerous numerous edits. I really should type this out in Word first but usually am distracted by work. I didn't say that at all. I said the system in place isn't following the rules 100%. Nothing more. No one provided an answer. The answer that was implied is "People are free to play preplays as a solo match, group event and fill out the sheet and handed in. No validation from other players is required. The TD will enter the scores into system or use the actual sheets for preplay." Whereas the rules referenced for gameplays contradict the practice. People drew their own conclusions where as I wanted the official word. Which still has not been stated.

    #40 10 months ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    Guess I missed this thread somehow. I run the league and thought I'd throw out some input.
    We allow pre-plays because sometimes life gets in the way of pinball. An unexpected illness, family vacation, travel for work, etc. Is it a perfect system, probably not, but does it encourage players that might not be able to play otherwise....most definitely.
    I've always tried to run all of my events so they are competitive enough for players that want the competition and relaxed enough for players that just want a reason to get out of the house and socialize every week. It's a very difficult balance.
    Look at it this way. All highly competitive players started from casual players. What if I told all the new people that if you miss a night you get a big fat zero for all 4 games, which will most likely put you at the bottom and excluded from playoffs? It probably wouldn't go over too well.

    This is why I joined this league. #Spyderturbo007 does a great job at running it. Even if I complain about not having ball save turned on for Munsters.
    I've gone several seasons without using a preplay but have had times when I need to.
    Just this past season I had to use them 2 times. One was for vacation, one when I was sick.

    My first preplays entered were done playing after league against the official score keeper. They were some of my lowest score of the season. My next were also played after league with official score keeper. This time I had 4 scores that were my personal best on those machines. So it can go either way. But I could see how someone would get upset to have to play against those scores.

    #41 10 months ago

    for fuck sakes

    #42 10 months ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    What if the TD's allow this to go on? Is that still acceptable? That is the whole point TDs let people solo preplay here for years.
    You can grab the preplay sheet any night fill out any score you want and leave. No one would be the wiser except if you made
    to good of a score and it didn't show up on the High scores the next day. This happened and we forfeit that score. However
    SOLO preplays are not the same as a group Preplay. There is someone there to vouch. That doesn't happen with everyone in
    our league.
    We have folks playing in 3x leagues a week using SOLO preplay scores that usually end up being the season's best. How does that make for a fair system.
    It would be better to just have a set # of nights established a player can miss without this system. That would ensure that no one ever cheat.

    i'd say only play in a league that has head to head 7, 5,3 1 system the day of league. That way you don't have to worry about bullshit behind the scenes stuff like this. If you don't have a league that is normal. Start one.

    13
    #43 10 months ago

    I bet the preplay guy was using slide saves.

    #45 10 months ago
    Quoted from RustyLizard:

    I bet the preplay guy was using slide saves.

    I quite literally lol-ed, at this

    #46 10 months ago

    If we could put the whole life isn't fair discussion on hold for a moment, what are you Midwestern clowns doing using the the SLAP acronym? There is only one true SLAP league = Salt Lake Area Pinball

    #47 10 months ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Really didn't think anyone would get so worked up over a simple question. I'm used to dealing with a whole different type of people in discussing issues. Most people took my comment as a personal attack even though I didn't mention anyone by name. I've been discussing the Preplay issue with several people during league and outside of league for several weeks. Just wanted to open up and talk about it as I finely had gotten some answers as to what the rules concerning preplay actually were. "A verified intentional game witnessed by TD or Person".
    The flak that came out of this was more than I wanted. A simple answer would of sufficed but my wording must of come about wrong.

    You accused people of lying and cheating to a public audience. If everyone knew who you were talking about do you think not expressly naming them means they shouldn’t care about what you said or respond in some way?

    Hosting a league or being a tourney director is a ton of thankless work. Consider what you can do to help out your league in a meaningful manner rather than filing grievances or lodging public complaints about their effort. No one likes complainers, everyone likes contributors. You can also always start your own league and run it how you want to. Just my two cents.

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