Also, first rule of Fight Club is never trust the ratings.. the numbers can be too easily manipulated. Trust the reviews, but not the ratings. I find that only people who have actually PLAYED the game take the time to write a review. It's way easier for some dummy to click a bunch of buttons and give a game 0's or 10's across the board.

I honestly think Avatar gets a bad rep because it came out at a real bad time for Stern.. they were hurting BIG TIME. Also, people were mad that Stern didn't use Ritchie's design. Also the movie was kinda "meh". Also the game came out WAY after the movie hype was already gone. Also Iron Man blew it out of the water. Also...

I think people will turn around on this game in another 10 years. It happens.. people didn't like MB either.

PM - I'm biased of course but it's a ton worse than Pinball Magic

LAH - Has modes, scoops, ramps, magnets all types of things going on in it. It doesn't look that great, but still better than Avatar...er Avaturd.

Flintstones - Way worse looking than Avaturd no doubt. But has so many more things going on in it.

Stargate - You got me there...avatar is certainly better than Stargate.

So are you trying to say that AFM has a similar layout to Avaturd? No way.

I can't really agree with that either. I'm MUCH more inclined to write a review for a game I like than dislike.

Ahh, I don't think the gameplay on AFM and Avatar is similar at all. May have fan layout but they sure play differently IMO. But to each their own.

Yeah I mean one is totally open in the middle and the other is closed. 3 ramps to 1, no scoop, one is stop and go the other is all flow etc etc.

Well i have 5 sterns but the avatar keeps coming back to me .
good action game with great sound.

mvg udo

I like it,although it does not live up to its potential,still a good pin.

Really? Maybe it's just me, but Flintstones is one of the games that I just don't get how *anyone* can like.

Stargate - You got me there...Avatar is certainly better than Stargate.

And again, really? You like everything better than Avatar, but Stargate? I don't know if I'd put Avatar or Stargate on top, but I know that I like Stargate quite a lot. There is SO much going on in that pin, it doesn't even feel like a Gottlieb from the era.

Goatdan - Flintstones is one of the most horrible looking visions I've ever had the shame to look at with my own eyes. That being said, it has "things" in it to occupy your time. Multiple ramps, 3 flippers, things that make your life a touch less horrible when playing. Avaturd has less of that.

AS for Stargate, what can I say, I can't stand it. The first thing i remember when this game came out was what the hell is a Gottlieb, and they must be proud of this one to put their name right there on the flippers. Oh and also that i liked the movie. That's where anything fun or entertaining ends instantly. It is so boring and empty of life it pains me to play it (and I just tried again the other week). You know what you think of X-files? I feel the same way about Stargate, and X-files....and Barb Wire.

I used to own an Avatar LE,I sold it because it had some design issues.
The ball would go from the pop bumpers to the ampsuit foot on the left and get stuck a lot.
Fixed this by using a larger rubber to span across the space.
Hitting the amp suit target would also put the ball in the same spot a lot of the time.
Of course you had to remove the glass to get it out every time it happened.

Even with the ball deflector up at the pop bumpers,it would still go down the drain quite a bit.
Above the pop bumpers,center lane,the ball would get stuck there sitting on the switch all the time.
The guides were placed to close together.I tried to adjust them,but there was no room to move them.

These things seem like minor things,but sure screw up the flow of a game

Dan

Funny, as I look at (and play) Flintstones and get driven nuts by the extremely easy shots that it has. I've never found a Flintstones where I felt like losing the ball was a possibility. Avatar is a challenge to keep it in play.

But, as I always joke, you're talking to a guy who freely admits that VND is one of the best games ever. I'm not like other people

AS for Stargate, what can I say, I can't stand it. The first thing i remember when this game came out was what the hell is a Gottlieb, and they must be proud of this one to put their name right there on the flippers. Oh and also that i liked the movie. That's where anything fun or entertaining ends instantly. It is so boring and empty of life it pains me to play it (and I just tried again the other week). You know what you think of X-files? I feel the same way about Stargate, and X-files....and Barb Wire.

Hunh. I'm surprised by that. Stargate seems to have a lot of fans, and with three wizard modes, lots of different shots, targets that move to open up completely different parts of the playfield, and more, it to me is one of those games that has a bit of everything, but it doesn't annoy me like LOTR does for being SO deep.

Yeah, X-Files. Barf.

Then again, I'm also a guy who admittedly likes Street Fighter II pinball. What's wrong with me?

haha...I don;t think there's anything wrong with us (well liking the games we do anyway). It takes me a lot to like a Data East game. In theory things should be good but it's all about how the machine feels. Stargate just feels like depressing when I play it. There's nothing interesting in it for me at all. In theory I guess it's got a lot going for it, but I don't have time to mine quartz or whatever the hell is going on.

Played an XF tonight! If W/B had made it it might have a chance, but everything is such a goddamn chore in that game. It has some good ideas, but just Sega sloppyness kills it.

Plus the fact that it is the most linear game in existance with absolutley no strategy at all... just 'Swallow the sword' and move to the next trick... everyting elese is excellent and totally amazing, the magic wand is genius, and the floating ball trick is excellent too, and I loved the artwork, but the total lack of variety and strategy was the clincher to let mine go... Mine never broke, so parts availablity was never an issue...

That's 100% correct, no other game is as linear and boring in it's gameplay

It's linear-ness is a major major major knock against it. No way to disagree with that.

It depends on the player. SF2 is also very linear and if you don't like that kind of play then you just don't get the game. Seeing how PM last I saw was around 2500 for a decent example and rarely comes up for sale, I would say it has its fans.

Yes i know, I own one

<----sword trick

I've Never Seen the Pin in Person , and I wasn't gett-n into the movie Until I saw Michelle Rodriguez . Ooo Wee ,, she is 1-Hotttt Piece of AZZ .. I lOOk on DirecTV for All the movies that she Will starring in..

Michelle_Rodriguez.jpg

FUNNY SIDENOTE:

When talking with Borg recently who designed Avatar, he said originally, it was going to be what Tron is now and the disc was going to be the big Mech machine....

Glad we got our Tron

_{Post edited by fattrain : spelling}

X-Files has serious software issues that hold it back more than anything else, as I recall. I haven't played one in YEARS, but I remember it being the software that was absolutely driving me batty when I did.

Personally, I'm someone who thinks that a game's programming is even more important than it's design. Two examples - both TOTAN and TOM are some of the most gorgeous, fun-to-shoot, fun-to-look-at playfields that there are, period. Popadiuk's designs are always amazingly cool looking, and are so much more visually interesting than just about everything else out there.

But with both those games, the software drives me nuts. There are such issues with both to me. I could never own either just because of that.

Really? Wow. Let's take TOM for example, what bugs you so much. I hope I don;t open pandora's box here and then I start noticing these things.

I don't really know why it was that I didn't like avatar.

It may be that sometimes it's hard to put your finger on what it is that makes a game bad or good. It just doesn't have a good feel, to it, IMO.

I don't like the AMP suit assembly, but there's definitely something else about the machine that I dislike - what, I don't know. I just don't really have much fun playing it, and I don't know why - but it's clearly something about the machine, because so many other people feel the same way. The layout seems kinda odd, incongruous, lacking cohesion. You can do a fan layout well, and you can do it poorly, and I'm sorry to say that Mr. Borg didn't pull it off here (he redeemed himself with IM though, which plays really well, despite the simpler layout).

ToM's ruleset+software is terribad, yeah. Excessive emphasis on the trunk, not enough variety in the callouts, the worst wizard mode in all of pinball... And the modes are uninspiring too... Plus, the stupid trapdoor kickout, which kills gameplay when it breaks, and is almost never working 100% on location - but that's a hardware issue.

TOTAN is similarly hurt by lousy rules - First, all the modes are all about completing the mode, rather than collecting points from it. Secondly, it's far too easy to wish away the modes to get to the wizard mode. I don't think the rules hurt TOTAN as much (you can just decide to not wish the modes away) as they do on TOM. I can really see the progress in terms of the ruleset from TOM -> TOTAN -> CV - It's a real pity that JPop didn't get to design more games before WMS collapsed. Any games he makes now, none of us will ever get to play unless we win the lottery.

I don't think the problem with Avatar is the software, though.

So not only is Tron a direct copy of Funhouse but it's also a rejected Stern layout?? MAN! Double whammy.

(I can say this 'cause I own one )

Pretty sure Avatar is the Bastard abortion of Steve Ritchie. Was he not working on that right before he told Gary to stick it up his ARSE? Or did his whole Cad get trashed and redone

Hit the trunk, hit the trunk, hit the trunk, hit the trunk, hit the trunk, hit the trunk...

For as much complaining as people have about SWE1, at least SWE1 has player-selected modes, and a ton of them. ToM doesn't have that going for it. The eight modes are essentially 'hey, we lit something, hit it three times'. I think two of them are "Hey, guess what? Hit the trunk!" again too.

The Wizard mode plays like a slightly more interesting single ball mode. Honestly, there is a mode on Viper Night Drivin' that this reminds me of, but the VND one is more pressure filled because if you hit it perfectly, you can light a mode that I have in 2000+ games never actually started on that machine. And most people hate VND.

I mean, I don't want to bash it because a lot of people love it, and I in many ways get it -- everything that John Popadiuk touches looks absolutely, positively beautiful. I'd put TOM and TOTAN in the top 10 games in the way of looks any day of the week, maybe even top 5. And, if you jack up the back legs and make it difficult, it makes any game more fun. Finally, I'll fully admit that it has less software issues than DM, which I own and would never get rid of, although the software on it sorta drives me bonkers too.

Interesting...

The Tron layout would have sucked with a typical bash toy in the middle, though - so it worked out for the best.

Trashed and redone from scratch.

Here's what Steve's Avatar looked like (got somewhat reused for AC/DC by the looks of it)

http://media.nerdblerp.com/uploaded/2010/07/1280525251_Avatar%20Mix_final.jpg

Yeah man, I still dig it.

I have one of the CAD layouts that he was selling on his site, and it looks nothing like the Avatar we got. As I recall, Steve was working on 24 and had just basically started Avatar when he was let go. Someone else tweaked 24, and then Avatar was redone by Borg from the ground up.

The closest thing that Steve's Avatar layout looks like, in my opinion, is actually AC/DC. It has two very similarly shaped ramps, and a cannon (although that is in a totally different spot). Pops are in a similar spot, and so is an orbit (although it is a little more smushed on Avatar). Seems he went back to this for AC/DC and made it rock more

Just my opinion, Avatar really is that bad:

-No cool toys, nothing that makes it stand out from other machines. The amp suit is cool but the gameplay part of it is just a motorized three bank and a stand-up target lane. The magnet is not that much fun, just there to screw you over.

-Boring, limited layout - Left flipper only has 3-bank, captive ball and orbit to go for, if you miss orbit there's a good chance you'll drain. The four shots in the middle (lock, unobtanium, 3-bank, cap. ball) are pretty bland and dangerous. Have you ever noticed there aren't any shots that move the ball from one flipper to the other? No flow.

-Anti-fun in the ruleset - nothing to do besides stack modes before multiball, hit unobtanium shot and captive ball shot when they light for jackpots, feels cheap and not earned. A lot of the features in the rules are similar to other stern titles, like the shot multipliers, mulitball rules, and stand-up target banks on the sides which start fast scoring on one side and timed mode on the other - somehow they fit together better on the more loved stern titles than on Avatar.

Just my take. I was pretty much turned off by the theme so i might be biased against it, i'm always roughest on the themes I'm not a fan of.

Right...or "pinball" as they call it

But seriously, I understand it's hit or miss with this. I don't like IM at all because of just what you're describing. But it doesn't bother me TOM. You gotta hit the trunk to start a mode, makes sense to me. Each mode is a different part of the playfield you have to hit, pretty standard stuff. There are other things to do with the clock and vanish etc etc, but I understand if you're not feeling it.

Never seen the movie and never played the pin. I wouldn't mind giving it a test drive.

agree

If that's how you are playing ToM, you are playing it wrong.

That Amp suit is screwed down to the playfield and you can see the heads of the screws at the feet and into the playfield. They should have at least covered the screws. It has a tendency to dribble the ball STDM from the pops much like AC/DC but without the diverter wire. Also the ball can dribble down the middle from the Amp suit.

. Has 1 ramp. I think there should be no less than 2 ramps in any machine. Just reminds me that Stern dummied down games after the economy tanked. The Powerball is not well implemented I have heard.

In all fairness I never tried or saw the LE

Depends on what you're playing for. I'm not like a lot of collectors in that sense. *shrug*

I think that IM handles things completely differently than ToM does when it comes to rules. I could write way more than anyone cares about the topic, but I'll just leave it as "it's an opinion, and I never claim my opinions are worthy of anyone other than me."

I agree, and I think that the rules for IM are actually quite good and tie in perfectly with how that game plays.

Played Avatar at a tourney tonight, and it's not THAT bad. Wish it had one more ramp, but then it may have looked like Tron Pro minus the third flipper.

Wow, that SR avatar playfield looks like it'd play real good (of course it would, it's Steve Ritchie). I don't think i've ever played a game with 3 ramps, all accessible from the lower flippers, but I'd love to. Are there even any, actually?

Regardless of who played mine, the linearity and gameplay was the same... Have you had one that changes rules depending who's playing?

Personally I feel that after having it set up in my dining room for almost a year and playing it almost every day that I did get it... I loved it in-fact, but the total lack of flexibility (apart from when you'd start multiball, and at the wizard mode, where what you had to do was so flexible there was no guidence what to do at all) finally drove me to sell it... I'm not knocking it, I'm just pointing out facts and mentioning the linerity as being a downside seeing as you thought it was just parts availability... sharing my experience if you like for the benefit of others

Viper Night Drivin' has *four*, although one is a jump ramp. It's a two flipper fan layout.

Demo Man has two ramps and a jump ramp, if that counts. The VND jump ramp is more legit to me because it takes the ball up a whole level, where the DM one is more of a skip ramp.

Honestly, although I love VND, more ramps does not mean a better machine. Usually, more ramps means a more controllable machine, and controllable machine does not mean good game in my mind. VNDs ramps are SO blasted tight it's really hard to hit any of them, which is why I like it.

AFM Kind of counts.

That reminds me - NBA Fastbreak has three, or four if you count it "AFM style" where it has another shot that joins up with a pre-existing ramp. Oddly enough, the center ramp is again more or less a jump ramp. Seems that any game with a lot of ramps needs one of those

I love my Avatar! It's the pin that every visitor wants to play, and I've got a pretty good list:
LOTR LE, TZ, FT, TSPP, etc. Mine is NIB and I think it is a gorgeous machine.

It's a tough pin to beat too. I've only made it to Wizard Mode one time.

It might be 'cheap', but of all my pins, Avatar is the ONLY ONE I don't have to constantly do repairs to. I think it was a hell of a buy and it won't be going anywhere . . .

Can't put a price on that! always a good thing.

Also Batman Forever. It has four ramps, three of them accessible from the left flipper, though one is a actually a bit of a stretch to call a ramp. One can only be hit by the upper right flipper and the bottom right flipper has a center shot at the primary ramp, though it usually takes a few attempts to climb that monster. They're difficult to hit, in fact one of the modes gives 30 seconds to hit all 4 but the best I've ever done is 3.

There's frequently disappointment in the software that drags down some of the recent pins. I've only seen a couple of complaint posts about Avatar's software. Do most of you who like the game think it's fairly complete?

Ill look into this next week....this game looks like a wreck...but you never know.
EDIT: At least it's true to the movie

If you want a detailed description of the rules, pinball news did a good one when it came out. http://pinballnews.com/games/avatar/index5b.html

New to this forum, I think Avatar is alot of fun but the Pro/LE war gained momentum in this time frame and the LE was a letdown which hurt the game overall. Take this with a grain of salt because I think TRON pro is close to the LE.

However, POTC was bashed early and now people are asking SM type money.

It is a waste of time to compare Avatar to any game that has been around a while and stayed popular like AFM.