Right on!

WOZ is number one at many locations in earnings. #1 on Play Meter.

The hate on here comes from the same small group of people who have bashed it for months now.

WOZ offers more game, toys, features and depth than any other modern pin in my opinion. Top 5 all day long. JJP hit it out of the park with WOZ. It's the only NIB pin being made today that has enough toys, features and code support to justify a $7,500 price tag.

Well to be fair at least the code for WOZ is now complete and offers more depth than any other pin being made today. It's also nice not waiting 6 months to a year for a code update...

JJP's timeliness for code is the best in the industry! The game had updates once a month (sometimes two) for nearly a year and now owners hear that another update to polish the game even more is coming. No one is doing code support better than JJP at the moment.

To be fair most games don't have a deep quest based ruleset like WOZ and a similar number of toys and features that requiring coding.

You have a good point about where WOZ started. A lot had to be implemented into the game code wise over the past year as Keith had created a very deep ruleset for the game. 10 months after release though the code is complete and the game has one of the deepest rulesets in pinball. People have waited well over 10 months for other games code to be complete with rulesets that are not as complex.

I'm not saying code support is bad for Stern games as they have gotten a little better at it. I'm thankful for all of the updates ACDC has received as I own a Premium. Just givings props to JJP for their amazing code support for WOZ and open communication regarding code with customers.

I rather wait 3 years for a game with complete code, with more toys / features that justify its price, then own a game for 3 years, or even two, while being left in the dark wondering when code will be completed. Easy pick. Code brings a game a live and Keith and Ted did an amazing job doing just that with WOZ.

The WOZ theme is timeless and can be enjoyed by anyone at any age. It's been very popular with operators and home owners. Earnings of the game have been very good for operators from what I've read and been told and continues to out earn any other pin. While Mustang may be appearing in some Ford dealers it doesn't seem very popular with home owners and operators. The Mustang theme is awesome but Stern made a mistake by not including one interactive toy in it and offering other features to justify its price in my opinion.

WOZ will go down as a classic pin using a timeless theme, having one of the deepest rulesets in pinball, and offering more toys and features than other pin at the time. Best pinball machine ever made in my opinion. Thank you JJP

Amazing reply. Great to see most of the same people who have bashed WOZ and JJP for months on end give your reply a thumbs up. Typical, lol.

Nothing I say will convince certain people on here to like WOZ. That's fine and I'm not trying to. I understand some people don't like the game. I will defend the game though when I read the same comments over and over again such as "the theme sucks" and "the gameplay is slow". Games like Tron, ST and ACDC will always play faster than WOZ and that is due to the left ramp, right ramp and middle ramp (ST and Tron) layout those games have while having few interactive toys to prevent stop and go gameplay. Just because WOZ doesn't play as fast as the games I mentioned doesn't mean it's not as fun. It's the opposite for me as WOZ is a game with a lot of strategic shots that requires a player to tackle various areas of the playfield, especially during multiballs.

For me I wanted a game that is loaded up with multiple toys and features that interact with the ball all while offering a deep quest based ruleset. WOZ does that. When I play my ACDC yeah it's exciting and fun but it never gives that feeling like I'm on a quest in the game with multiple unique modes spread throughout the playfield that lead up to a mid wizard and final wizard mode. I guess you can say I prefer Keith coded games with deep quest based rulesets compared to games that are more focused on scoring only.

For me some of my favorite pins are those where the programmer creates fun gameplay, offers objective based multiballs and tells a story through a player reaching certain objectives and goals. Those types games keep me coming back again and again. Two games that do that best in my opinion are LOTR and WOZ.

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Wow, talk about talking down the game. The track magnet with the monkey toy behind it is more interactive that any modern Stern game toy. Seriously what type of interactive toys do you get for $7,500 with ST LE or Mustang LE...Oh ST has the ship that moves. That's like the spinning house in WOZ expect the house in WOZ has a door that opens on top of it. What else does it have other than the kicker within the ship...One magnet and a drop target... For $7,500!? You may not want to start a toy debate here.

5 magnets, two mini playfields, 5 flippers, the crystal ball toy, two mini outlane games, the witch toy, the spinning house with drop door. Sorry but WOZ offers a lot of toys and features within it and far more value than any LE game Stern is making today.

All what you and several others here do in a WOZ related thread is try to talk down the game, act like its a piece of crap with no interactive toys (or glance over the ones it has) and offers slow gameplay. It's been the same old copy and paste story for months on end now. Sorry but I'm not going to stop defending the game when you make a comment that undermines the game like that.

MET is an awesome game too. Seems like the last two code updates for it have added a lot of depth to the game. I would like to get one some day.

I don't want anyone to think I dislike Stern games as that's not the case. I just believe and see that JJP is offering more value with a game like WOZ compared to Stern games that cost the same amount. While WOZ doesn't have one large interactive toy like MM it has a lot of smaller interactive toys that thanks to code offer multiple unique modes. During multiballs and wizard modes its cool to see a player forced to use several features on the playfield to complete it as opposed to shootig one target again and again.

I stopped reading your comment after "Friend of Dorothy" was mentioned. Wow, just wow. So the only people that like WOZ outside of the U.S are gay? That's not cool to say at all. A new low has been reached in this thread.

Edit: I did read the rest of your comments and it seems like you are describing a prototype WOZ with 1.0 code.

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I don't see how WOZ has flow problems. Not every game needs crazy flow to be successful or fun. Just look at how popular TZ is yet its not as fast as say ACDC. The opposite would be me saying that Star Trek has too much flow along with too few devices that interact with the ball which doesn't create interesting gameplay.

Lol. Fair enough. I understand your point now.

LOL! That was great.

Yeah. I think The Hobbit will flow more than WOZ but will still be stop and go as well with it having 4 pop ups, 11 drop targets, the ball holder near kicker and of course Smaug. I certainly wouldn't pay $7,500 for TH if the pop ups and drop targets were to be taken out but it meant more flow. Something has to justify the high cost of these games and if not they should be priced lower.

Personally I think the LCD is a game changer and makes DMD games, including my ACDC, look a bit outdated. The LCD on WOZ really helps display progress of the multiple modes spread throughout the playfield and produces some very cool animations. I can't see spending $7,500+ on a pinball machine anymore unless it comes with an LCD for the display.

Check out the extra ball animation in the video below at 13:39. Animations like that have much more impact on a game than the same thing appearing on a DMD in blocky text.

In TV advertisement guy announcer voice.

Chessiv, let me tell you about the amazing WOZ. It has 5 magnets, count em 5 magnets! It has not one but two mini playfields! Oh wait, we are not done yet unlike most pins. Are you sick and tired of watching your ball drain on pins and then nothing happens expect that feeling of emptiness? Well you're in luck with WOZ as there's two mini outlane games where you can get your ball back! Also if you, a friend or a family member can't stand looking at DMD animations that look like the original NES Super Mario Bros game than WOZ is the game for you as it offers HD animations for the ultimate high def pinball experience!!!!

Well of course you will! More dings = more value for your money! Don't buy a game with only 1 or two dings when you can buy one with thousands for the same price!

I think its time to move on from this thread. We all know that WOZ is the best pinball machine ever made and that The Hobbit pinball will be the next best pinball machine once its released. Right? lol

In regards to comments about slow and plodding gameplay...

Myself and many others like the stop and go gameplay combined with some flow. Many new games are so focused on flow that they lose out on interesting and unique gameplay due to a lack of toys on the playfield as well as interesting modes. Most pins also only have one area where modes are accessed / targeted, with WOZ there's several. The crystal ball area has 4 unique modes which are all 2 ball multiballs, the Munckin mini playfield has 4 modes including a multiball, the upper left mini playfield allows players to play a 2-4 multiball with risk / reward playing heavily into locking more balls for Rescue Multiball. Then there's Haunted Multiball which is unlocked after collecting the 3 Haunted Modes. There's also Fireball Frenzy after defeating 3 witch hurry ups which focuses on the witch area and other shots throughout the playfield. Can't forget about Emerald City multiball either which is a great objective based multiball. Then there's two games wizard modes. I can only speak about Battle the Wicked Witch as I haven't reached Somewhere Over the Rainbow but it requires the player to access nearly all of the areas and shots on the playfield. Besides all of the game standard modes there's also two mini outlane games.

Overall playing WOZ gives me that feeling like I'm on a quest while playing it where as when I play my ACDC I just feel like I'm going for points. There are times during WOZ games where I could care less about my score as I'm more excited about how many modes I can unlock and how far I can get in them. I can't think of any other game that provides that type of fun factor other than LOTR.

The modes in WOZ, like most modes in Keith games, provide a unique type of gameplay compared to other pins too. Where most games have players targeting one area during a multiball Keith makes the player work the entire playfield and that to me beats high flow any day and bashing one area / toy again and again.

WOZ is a masterpiece in my opinion and its ruleset makes all of the games toys and features shine.

*Comment deleted

I deleted the comment as I remember you actually praising the film and / or theme at some point in this thread. Sorry about that. I'm not familiar with the cartoon so I apologize for taking it the wrong way. If I was I would have taken the pic a different way. Thanks for trying to lighten the mood.

Exactly. I've found it easier on WOZ to keep track of my progress and determine what to do than any other game I own.

Great post Asael. I have ACDC and WOZ in my lineup and feel the same way. When I play my ACDC I'm in it just for the points and while that is fun I find games like WOZ and LOTR to be much more interesting. With WOZ sure a high score is nice but I also like playing just to see how far I can get, how many Munchkin modes I can unlock and if I can even reach Battle Wicked Witch let alone Somewhere Over the Rainbow. With ACDC and points focused games that feeling like you are on a quest is gone. Like you said though both games are intended to play entirely different. I just prefer games likes WOZ and LOTR as they come across as much more interesting games with more to do compared to points focused pins.

Its a great theme, one of the best in years for a pin. It attracts men, woman and kids. WOZ is out earning any other machine at a lot of locations so that's proof just how popular the theme is. #1 on Play Meter too for earnings.

My dad, 57, was playing my WOZ a few weeks back. He loves pinball and I could see he was having a blast playing WOZ. When I asked him if he wanted to play ACDC he just said "nahhh, this game is too much fun, I want to play another game on WOZ". My wife and friends reaction are typically the same.

Jack also sold 1,000 LE's of the game without people ever seeing a complete game which is more proof of the themes popularity. Wizard of Oz, like Twilight Zone, is a timeless theme and will forever be popular. It was a smart move by Jack to pick WOZ as the theme for JJP's first pin.

I didn't say every location. I bet other games out earn WOZ depending on the location. I could imagine Harley Davidson out earning WOZ at a biker bar, lol.

Last I heard it out earns every game, which includes new Sterns, at Marvin's Marvous Museum on a regular basis.

Oh yeah. Awesome place for pinball and other unique arcade games. I need to make another trip up to Marvin's soon.

Now you realize why I'm saying all of these pro WOZ comments, lol.

I think my Hobbit order is towards the middle or end of orders. I didn't preorder until September, 2013.

Battle the Wicked Witch is definitely a tough wizard mode. I've reached the mode 3 times but each time drained one of the two balls and the mode ended. It sounds like the mode keeps going on your machine even if you lose one ball? I wonder if theres a difficulty setting for the mode I'm not seeing.

Over 400 posts in this thread in 3 days...wow! Is that a Pinside record? lol

If anything that proves just how big of an impact WOZ and JJP has had on pinball and the wide range of opinions about the game and the company. I've seen another pin generate this much discussion either good or bad.

I'll give you 5%, lol.

No, not really. I've posted about the games features, toys, code, theme, JJP, The Hobbit, WOZ earnings, asked people questions about game rules, etc.

Oh no, I have said the forbidden word! Bad Panzer bad. I forgot we live in a pinball era where less toys and higher prices are a good thing as long as there's flow.

lol. Yeah. Personally I think the call outs in WOZ are very good and sound close to the actors in the film. The Oz call outs are my favorite. Hearing "EXTRAAAA BALLLL" never gets old.

You truly do hate JJP and have come across repeatedly like you want them to fail more than anyone else on Pinside. The more pinball companies the better.

A lot of people like WOZ and what Jack and JJP have done for this hobby. Nothing is going to change that.

Great idea! The people that hate WOZ need there own thread to complain about the game. Just call it the "WOZ Hate Fan Club". It would be a first for Pinside. Then the WOZ code update threads, shipping threads (which many people in this thread should not be posting in but do), and support threads can be free of going to crap.

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#LotsOfToys=NoFlow

So I'm the reason this thread exists and its my fault? Same with some people disliking JJP? Truth be told my yellow brick road a$$. Some people disliked JJP before I ever started posting positive comments about WOZ. A few of those people must be steaming saying to themselves "That damn PanzerFreak posting about those damn cool toys in WOZ...I hate JJP!" or "He keeps posting about complete code on WOZ, I never want a JJP game" lol...

If I have to read other people's comments about how slow WOZ is, start crap in the WOZ shipping update thread, how much the game sucks, how Jack stinks, blah blah blah for months on end now then they can read my comments about why the game is fun and offers a lot of value or add me to their ignore list.

Yes it has a display but it uses a 27" 1080P LCD. Saying a WOZ display is not much different then a DMD is like saying tires on 1920 Ford Model T are the same as those on a 2015 Mustang because both are round...Sure WOZ has targets...just a ton of them! Some new games have one magnet, WOZ has 5. Some new games have one mini playfield, WOZ has two. WOZ brought higher prices because Stern thought they could pull a fast one on everyone and say "Hey, JJP is charging $7.5k for their LE's so lets do the same"!

The problem is Stern didn't innovate and include an LCD, they didn't offer direct print cabinets with unique side art on both sides, they didn't make a wide body game with more features, they didn't include a headphone jack and they didn't include a topper.

For $7.5k-$8k you get the most for your buck by far with a JJP game. They are the only company today making pinball machines worth those prices in my opinion. I say that as a fan of Stern in hope that they will offer more in their games at the higher price points.

What other pinball machine has an LCD in the display? Excluding aftermarket mods and machines that are not in production. Just curious.

People are going to have different opinions on whether or not WOZ is groundbreaking. For me, my family and friends that have come over and played my WOZ they think its groundbreaking just from the standpoint of the games RGB lighting system, LCD display and cabinet artwork.

Spot on Well said.

Stern needs to up their game and finally put an LCD display in their games.

The LCD is a huge draw while playing WOZ and adds a lot to its fun factor, especially with the games deep ruleset. After seeing the "EXTRAAA BALLL" animation on WOZ I couldn't imagine seeing something similar appear on a DMD on the game as it wouldn't have no where near the same impact. Same goes for the Emerald City multiball animations and dozens of others. The LCD display on WOZ compliments the playfield design and features as it helps bring alive the Wizard of Oz universe to the player. A DMD just can't do that nearly as well.

Stern is already charging WOZ prices for their LE games but now just needs to justify those prices with WOZ level features.

Pinball "welfare" money funded WOZ and TH? Wow. I don't recall anyone on welfare ever starting a company and creating a product superior to their competitor. Stealing money from Peter to pay Paul. Last I checked people like myself paid Jack for a WOZ ECLE and received an ECLE.

I never said Stern makes a poor product. They make great pins that are a blast to play. JJP machines are just on a different level in my opinion. I'm still very happy with my ACDC Premium.

Some people have issues with me sticking up for JJP and WOZ just like some people have issues with several others who have bashed the game and company for months on end. There can be a positive comment about WOZ yet the same 6 or so WOZ bashers will never give it a thumbs up but find a negative comment and there they are supporting it.

I hear ya, you have some good points. I agree that putting up pre-order money for 3 years is not a sustainable business model. If The Hobbit takes 3 years to ship there's a problem. The first games took so long to get out the door (which from a new product standpoint isn't that long) because JJP started from scratch. Let's hope that The Hobbit does start shipping December. Only 6 months to go!

Stern has been around for much much longer than JJP. With a game like ACDC, MET or ST they didn't have to create the platform first, design standard pinball hardware, build vendor relations and a thousand other things that come with forming a pinball company. JJP started from scratch yet some people still forget that when factoring in the time it took them to get the first WOZ out the door. Also, while Stern builds great games they do not contain a similar amount of tech and features like a JJP game does. If JJP designed a more simpler game without an LCD it would have been out sooner but that's not the type of game they wanted to build nor the game pre-order customers signed up for.

Also, does it matter if Stern can build 1000 games in 3-5 weeks for JJP? Is Ferrari a failure because they don't build the same number of Focus's that Ford builds in 3-5 weeks? No. Jack knows his company is a start up and said that he would like to someday see JJP make 2,500 games a year, be profitable and offer good jobs to people.

The second game won't take as long. If it does there's a problem. I do agree that current LE production should be going faster than it is but at least games are being built. New owners have posted stories / pics about picking up their games and seeing LE's being worked on and ready for shipment.

It would be interesting to hear what a game like WOZECLE built by Stern would cost. If Stern is charging $7,500 for a game like Mustang LE a WOZECLE made by them may cost $10,000. If the game is the same quality as JJP is making today, includes the same features and is same price people may wonder why the games built in house by Stern cost the same price yet don't include a similar number of features.

No I wouldn't nor did I make mention of it in my post. Lighten up dude. Too much hate, be happy

I know what you mean. When I got my WOZECLE back in Nov of last year production of LE's seemed to be much faster. JJP seemed to be cranking through the LE's up until December. I'm thinking the delays have to be a result of a shortage of LE cabinets as there doesn't seem to be an issue with the production of standards which now use decals. It seems more likely that The Hobbit LE will use decals. I'm fine with that as long as JJP offers value elsewhere in the machine. They seem to be doing that with features such as in interactive apron mentioned.

That's 3 more times than I have, lol. You get some bonus fanboy points for that

You are too kind RobT lol

lol! My work here is done guys. Its now on to another pinball forum to defend WOZ's honor and glory. haha

Notice the lack of thumbs up for the post above. Too positive for this thread lol

Maybe because around 800/1000 LE's have shipped, more are being built every week, standards being built as well, the code support for WOZ is amazing and JJP has released several Hobbit white wood and animation videos? Nah.

What fundamental design flaws? Myself and many others haven't had an issue with games with 7.5 v boards in it. I think the only concern is with some original games that shipped with 5 volt boards and those owners can get replacement parts free of charge. That issue has been fixed for a while now.

LOL! Sometimes you come off like you hate WOZ and JJP all day every day. Negativity and hopelessness is all I see. I prefer to be positive and look at what JJP has done.

1. Yes, there are still 200 LE's to go and guess what they are being built! Production hasn't stopped.

2. We know there's an issue with getting enough LE cabinets and standards can be made quicker because they are using decals.

3. Isn't it rumored that The Hobbit LE will use decals? If so the same issue won't exist. If they do use direct print Jack should make sure the same thing with WOZ LE cabinets doesn't happen.

4. Jack said his work was done on the game. I trust guys that guys like Keith Johnson and Ted Estes will now bring the design alive with their amazing rule design.

Opps, I said something good about JJP again. It can't be. That's crazy talk. Complete code? Regular updates? Being positive. What's that?

The first rule about the WOZ hate thread is to say nothing positive about JJP. There is nothing positive about them. Regular code updates, value, included topper, lots of features, and innovation all suck!

lol. If that is Pinside policy you would have already been banned with some of the comments you posted in other WOZ threads.

Why not just create a dedicated "WOZ Hate Fan Club" thread? That way it can be negative comments all day, everyday.

No matter how much I may disagree with you, or others, in some threads about WOZ I'm proud to say I haven asked for any of those members to be banned from Pinside just for having another opinion. Wow.

Nah, I'm good!

What is that supposed to mean?

If you have something else insulting to say why not say it?

Nope, wrong again. I was just surprised that you would down vote the comment I made in a WOZ code update thread where I thanked Keith.

Also I didn't mention anything about thumbs up / down in that post...

Good choice.

You are getting angry again. We talked about this. Please watch the video below once again.

You may want to watch the video as well. So much hostility.

CenterFlank: You think I'm going to reply to you after you sent me a PM just to harass me? Grow up.

"Dig deep into your closet and find your big boy pants. They have to be in there somewhere."

Here you go.

"You clearly have your bitch boy pants on, Man up!"

I don't care. Thank you. Here's a thumbs up for you!

You call me pathetic but I'm not the one sending harassing PM's on top what you are posting here to me...

DB'ery? You may not want to say that after sending PM's like that just to escalate an argument. You look like the child sending PM's like that.

It's silly for us to continue this argument over a pinball machine of all things. I don't want to do it anymore. I apologize for the part I played in it and will exit this thread for good.

Honestly I think a few people were pissed that another company came along and one upped Stern with their first game that offered far more value, newer tech, and with it built the most loaded game since Twilight Zone. Well, that and the frequent substantial code updates for the game while they waited months on end for updates from Stern.