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Sorry, spit diet coke through my nose and couldn't read any further....

Go back to where (of ALL things) you are bragging on JJP's timeliness?

I think you're better of sticking with Macro #1:
"More toys, LCD, Widebody!!!!!, best built game in history, The Journey, Widebody, great software, Widebody, Stern Sucks,,, er, I mean, "Widebody'"

btw, this thread is dumb.... who the f@#$ "hates" a pinball machine? Good god, just don't drop a quarter in one you don't like and move on.... Hate Pinball???! Sigh.

You can say that again!

Disliking this game/theme has nothing to do with being homophobic (queue Seinfeld voice), "NOT that there's anything wrong with it..."

I also happen to dislike Stern's Mustang (and I've driven/owned 'Stang's for the last 7 years!).

Some themes just dont work for the everyone. Hey, "Little Red Riding Hood" is a "timeless classic" as well, but that doesnt mean I want to see it re-imagined on a pinball machine....hmmm... though the Amanda Seyfried translite might be a keeper....

You mean once they're all delivered?

Of COURSE you weren't intentionally trying to post something inflammatory.... no one think that in a million years!

It certainly would have been VERY difficult to gather these opinions on the VERY few other threads about Woz/JJP/Th

Also, this thread really allowed folks to air some previously unshared opinions about WoZ (ie, apparently Panzer likes his, a few people are unhappy with the pre-order process, etc).

Hey, at least there's a few chicks in the WOZ story.....

Want to talk about a real sausage-fest? The Hobbit.

Are there many other pins with absolutely ZERO women in the artwork?

Yes... i think the soundtrack could rock with this new cast

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Cant stop the fanbois!!!!!

Truth be told, Panzer's incessant posting is a significant adder to the dislike of JJP... if he was disallowed from posting, the need ofr this type of thread would go away

lol... chill bro...
if you're not the reason the thread exists, you're certainly a huge contributor
.... 40+ posts in a thread about why people hate WoZ?

Wait, wait, what? WoZ shipping thread?
I assumed they were all shipped months ago (ish) as Jack promised?

Are you saying they havent? Yikes...

Put your favorite red shoes back on and skip over to a local WoZ and play some pinball... life's too shirt to be so bitter!

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Agreed.

However, it's likely JUST as intellectually dishonest as the 10.0 ratings from May 2013.

Same story for most of the top 10-20 games Id guess...

Come on- at least be fair!

JJP is producing more than 2 games a year! Hell, I think they have almost produced DOUBLE that this month alone!

Delivery jokes aside,

I think it's disingenuous NOT to give JJP some props for the LCD. Is it according-to-Hoyle the absolute first to ever use a LCD screen in a pin? Maybe not. However, they have implemented it in a pretty unique and interesting way.

Stern put out 2 music pins in mono? Hmmm, I think I have to give some props to JJP in the sound dept as well.

I was entertained, but FFS, time to kick the sound up a notch.
I love acdc, but that doesn't mean I don't think the artwork is shit and the sound could be better.

I think JJP has innovated. No question.

But it's not just about delivering the WOZ pre-orders:

Until he can actually BUILD and ship pinball machines without pre-order "welfare money", then the business model will continue to be shaky/risky. The "Stealing from Peter to pay Paul" financing model is not sustainable.

It seems like this might be the case by JJP #3. I certainly hope so!

I'm still tentatively a buyer for TH, but not until I can buy one "off the shelf" which likely means I've got some waiting to do...

Agree 100%
JJP has done one of those things amazing well.
JJP has done the other incredibly poorly.

It's too bad Jack started off this project in a jihad slamming stern. If he had forged a deal similar to the MMr-Stern deal- JJP might be shipping #3 or #4 by now.

Maybe not 1000 in 2 months, but it certainly wouldn't have taken 3 years...probably more like 3-4 months.

Come on Panzer, surely you understood the point? Ironically you love to complain about the same people criticizing JJP and yet you will blindly attack those same people without even understanding their comments. If you re-read my post - the only I said about JJP *games* was complementary; I simply stated the funding model is not sustainable. I'm shocked anyone would find that controversial!?!?

But, Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and explain what I meant:

I put preorder "welfare money" in quotes precisely because i didn't mean *literally* welfare money. I meant on WoZ, JJP had:
WoZ pre-payments,
new WoZ order payments, and
even some TH pre-payments to fund his operations.

My simple point was that for them to be healthy and sustainable, they will need to get to a point where they dont need to hold buyers money for 2+ years to keep the lights on and get product out the door. AND truly be able to ship what's paid for without needing to "line-jump" new orders for cashflow infusion.

WoZ seems like a great game (for those that like the theme)
TH is a great theme- tons of potential
JJP #3 has "The Master" working on it- not much of a better pedigree out there...

The actual games look to be solid, its their business model and production planning thats still shaky.

I agree that the JJP had to start from scratch and comparing their production rates to Stern's is comparing apples to Orangutans.

The thing that scares me a little about TH is the WoZ production issues dont really seem to have subsided. I think if they were shipping 10 games/week the first month, then 25/week after 3 months, then 50/week after 6 months- it would be a different story. You could then easily attribute the slow shipping to their ramping up and the learning curve.

That's not what has happened.

If you just look at whats happened since the "90-days-ish" comment- it's clear they still don't have a handle on production- or even remotely being able to forecast it correctly. It looks like they might blow that last prediction by a factor of 2... or more.

I mean- geez- people are all ecstatic when there's a report/sighting on a dozen boxes ready to ship at the factory! Well, hell, THATS how many they were predicting they could ship EVERY day!

Anyways- that's all well-covered turf. My concern for the future is we aren't seeing production trending up like one might expect....

Now, if the supply-chain is drastically different for TH, then perhaps WoZ trends arent a good measure of TH capabilities... I hope that's partially the case.

I dont think JJPs' written policy is much different than most.

However, its this kind of thing that makes one scratch your head:

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Original post:
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fs-nib-wozle-7500-huo-transformers-le-autobots-4500-huo-safecracker-8k#postbox

Say what you will about Gary Stern, but Im about 101% sure he would not take the time and go out of his way to crap on someones forsale thread to highlight that it would have no warranty coverage!

Good idea. Stick to the WOZ fan club thread.... You will be much happier.

As I said a long time ago (and was recently repeated here), YOU are one of reasons people have WOZ-exhaustion. The incessant need to respond to EVERY critical post comes off as foolish.... and when you DO make a relevant point (which you DO), it gets lost in the noise of "toys, magnets, topper, code updates" etc.

At least guys like iceman (a clear WOZ fan) seems to moderate his praise with reality.

Here's my take:

WOZ is a significantly evolutionary step forward in pinball. I see lots of innovation I the game: the LCD, the sound, the crystal ball, the deep code set, the great cabinet, etc. Jack beat the odds and DID get his first game (nearly) out the door. While I don't care for the theme or gameplay, I can appreciate the accomplishment. I don't hate WOZ. That's just silly.

Having said that, I absolutely detest the shenanigans that have taken place with JJP and their handing of the pre-orders and communicating of (my opinion) knowingly false shipping dates/promises. It's a great game, but the END doesn't justify the MEANS....

I hope JJP cleans up their house and can deal with folks in a more honest and straightforward manner. I'm a likely buyer for TH and perhaps the PL game as well.... But not till I can confirm a shipping game.

There. I've not slammed WOZ. JJP will continue to earn criticism on its business practice until JJP fixes it. Jack has all the power to silence his critics.... I hope he does.

Never!!! In fact:

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key point.

I wonder what some of today's pin will look like in 20 years....even 10 years. I suspect (if any are even around) it wont be a pretty sight....

Agreed.

Comparing sales stats from 2 completely different ERA's of pinball is useless. If you adjust them for the total pinballs made in those years - you'd get a more reasonable comparison.

In a reverse example- it's Kind of like saying the ford model T was a failure because they only sold 10,000 of them the first year. 10k is paltry sales today, but it 1905 (or whenever) there's was only like 200k TOTAL cars on the road.... 10k was massive.

But to the whole topic:
Measuring a game by the number of ramps it has?
That's almost as inane as simply counting the number of toys.

A pinball machine is not just a bill of materials, it's how those parts PLAY.

Dude.... you are arguing with a guy whose username is "joemama" and tag is FUK? You weren't really expecting mensa-level intercourse* were you?

*Note to Joemama, Google "intercourse" before you freak out... you may have to scroll down to the 2nd one...

So you were in kindergarten when folks started paying for their Wozzes...and now your a big boy with internet access and everything!!

No idea why, but that's funny.