(Topic ID: 94984)

Why do people hate WoZ


By zr11990

5 years ago



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There are 1002 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 21.
#1 5 years ago

Im reading posts about how people hate it here, but its a beautiful game, and a distributer friend of mine said thet he will ebay his remaining games when he gets them and dump them at cost because no one is buying them. I don't get it. The game is awesome to look at and has so much going on that one could never get it all done. The modes are stackable and the rules are great. Yes, I finally got the new code installed. I would like to hear from the people that have them and the people who sold them and the people who dislike it. I am not trolling nor am I trying to start a fight or a shit storm Im curious. I personally love the game now. Wizard of Oz would not be my first choice as a theme but the game itself is great.

#2 5 years ago

Slow plodding gameplay. Terrible theme. Numerous ongoing tech issues. Horrible business plan and follow through from the sharks manufacturing and selling them. Take your pick.

#3 5 years ago

Pretty to look at but theme sucks, game play is horrible. But I dont like widebodies, theme is personal and I dont like TZ so its personal taste for me.
This thread is really just trouble. You are honestly better served surfing the millions of posts already made by all sides. Again, I am the first to give JJP crap for things I believe they deserve but another mudslinging thread aint helping.

#4 5 years ago

I believe some didn't wait until the later codes and until 2.0 the game was unfinished greatly and went to a whole new level at 3.0. Will likely be even more awesome with the soon to be released next code.

Then the board issues of some games didn't help at all. Getting a game you wanted for 3 years and having boards go out was naturally upsetting.

Some really hate the theme. Personally I love it as do all kids who come to my house and most adults. Then there was the wait for 3 years by those who didn't get their games for awhile and were understandably upset. Some say it's slow and doesn't have a lot of flow. I have my inclined and waxed well and never find it slow.

Personally I love the game and it's by far the best game I've ever owned by I understand the upset and disappointment with the problems although JJP has been working hard to correct the board and other issues. Would like to see everyone who's ordered get their games.

I believe they have learned a lot about making pins and hopefully have corrected problems and the Hobbit will hopefully go much better when it is being made.

#5 5 years ago

The theme is fine (depending on your age) but the gameplay is slow, and boring. I played it and Star Trek the other week side by side for an afternoon. I'd take ST all day long.

#6 5 years ago
Quoted from WesleyCowan:

I believe some didn't wait until the later codes and until 2.0 the game was unfinished greatly and went to a whole new level at 3.0. Will likely be even more awesome with the soon to be released next code.

Nope played the latest code the other day and cant stand the game.

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#8 5 years ago

Its been cool on this site to bash WOZ for a long time and frankly some of the startup problems have made it a very easy target. I don't hate it, in fact I love it. Easily gets the most play at my house. Just not worth putting up with the nonsense here to post much about it.

45
#9 5 years ago

I don't think people would have hated WOZ if it wasn't for all of Jack's bragging, insulting Gary Stern, and what some would call outright lies.

We will not ship a game with incomplete code.

I think everyone may have a surprise around Christmas.

Batting balls around in a cardboard box

Our games will all have hand drawn artwork.

2nd game is an original theme.

Our games are open source

Ruby

#10 5 years ago

Everyone I have played has had weak flippers, and other issues. Very frustrating. This is the cost of new technology. JJP will get the bugs out on future games. You have to start somewhere. Theme is not for most but does appeal to family use. Games sell better when the are built with a Man theme because mostly men buy them. Don't get me wrong their are a lot of female players and I think that is great, but for the most part men are the primary buyers.

For me the game play seems like too much stop and go .

It looks awesome!!!!!!!!!! But don't judge a book by it's cover LOL

Rob

21
#11 5 years ago

I don't get why people think the gameplay is horrible. Maybe they haven't played a game that was set up properly? And weak flippers? That's a flipper/configuration problem, not necessarily a WOZ problem.

Ultimately, I notice that when you hear people criticize WOZ, all their arguments are mostly subjective. They "don't like the gameplay." They never seem to point out specific issues that most people might agree with. Don't like a widebody? Again, kinda ambiguous and highly subjective. Don't like the theme? Again, very, very personal.

I've had this argument with people before... I respect everybody's right to have their own opinion on things, but it seems more honest to just say, "I don't like the game" than it is to say, "The gameplay sucks." That implies there is some universally-accepted problem that they've refused to or cannot address. I don't get that.

For example, I can point out specific things about specific games and why I don't like them: some games have very repetitive rulesets that get boring. WOZ doesn't. Some games have certain areas that are the "go-to" places for shots if you want to score points - and the scoring system is unbalanced and competition is un-exciting because there's basically "one way to play the game" if you want to score points. WOZ isn't like that. Some games have video modes that are not random and can be memorized and therefore represent no real challenge. Those are specific, non-subjective criticisms. I rarely hear anything like that from WOZ critics. It's usually "I don't like it" without any real details.

As far as tech issues, I've never had any problems with my WOZ. I had the crystal ball come un-glued. I glued it back. I've never had any lighting go out. Considering how exponentially more-complicated this game is over anything Stern is currently producing, it's amazing for an inaugural product, that WOZ has so few issues.

#12 5 years ago

Every pin in existence has its detractors. WOZ is no different. I'm not sure this is a productive discussion since much of this amounts to personal taste and preferences. There are no right or wrong answers - just opinions.

I'm sure every single person on pinside can look at the first 30 pins in the Top 100 list and find at least 1 pin they don't think deserves to be there. I, for example, cannot for the life of me understand the love for Tron. I just can't get into it and am not a fan of either the theme or playfield design. This doesn't make it a bad pin. Quite the opposite, it's obvious that many / most people think it's great. It's just my opinion... And like my dad used to say, opinions are like *ssholes - everyone's got one.

#13 5 years ago

There is plenty to love about Woz, and most people that have actually played it for any period of time do....It's a great pin. If you don't own, you probably don't like it and with Woz haters feel the need to pound away non stop for the past 3 years, unlike any other pin.

Its the Jack factor that a lot of people don't like....

#14 5 years ago

I personally played one not too long ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. I found the gameplay to be fine, but I would agree the theme doesn't do much for me. To each his own, but to say the gameplay sucks is just an uneducated assumption at this point in my opinion. Some won't like it, just as I don't drink the Kool-Aid when it comes to MM. Love the theme, but gameplay just doesn't do it for me. The funniest thing to me is some people will just bash it without really having any time on it. I have no dog in this race so I have no reason to lean either way. Nice photo Tiki.... we need more of this on Pinside rather than the bickering back and forth.

#15 5 years ago

Good god Teekee that's one fine ass you have there. On the girl that is. It doesn't have to be ugly, we are all big boys and some girls. As I said I did not start this to cause problems. I did have problems with their slow delivery. If they would just have told people that they were having trouble getting their parts and what the other problems were Im sure people would have understood. I have had no board issues with mine, knock on wood. As far as slow clunky game play I disagree. It isn't Star Trek but in no way is my game slow and clunky and I wish sometimes that it had more stop and go so I could have a short break. To each his own though.

17
#16 5 years ago

I have no dog in this fight, but I will say this: I have a local friend who has one, and it is AWESOME.

I walked up to it honestly dreading it; I figured I would get SO TIRED of the "Off to see the wizard..." theme - nope - in fact, it doesn't get played too often. The marching of the army when you get the ball on the upper micro PF is great, the colors are dazzling, outstanding light shows, great "2nd chances" on the outlanes, and you can stack modes like pancakes at a diner. You can do anything at nearly anytime, and the game is pretty deep (to me).

Look, it may not have explosions at every twist and turn, and it may not be an original theme like AFM, but it is a darn good game. I don't have that kind of money to blow on a single purchase without eating "bologna on hand" sandwiches for a couple months, but if I did, I would really like to bring one home. Great game, and I feel for the people that paid in 2011, and SILL haven't gotten their machine - that's tough - and those people have a right to be upset and voice their opinion. I do feel that the ship to bash JJP because it's the "in thing to do" set sail a long time ago...

#17 5 years ago

WOZ looks amazing and is (mostly) built like a tank. I was blown away when I first played it in the prototype phase. Now, I find the gameplay to be just OK. My biggest specific complaint is the rollovers in the middle of the playfield. I hate the positioning of these rollovers and I hate how much of the ruleset is hinged on hitting them over and over. Generally, the game also doesn't have a lot of satisfying shots. Most of the layout is dominated by spot targets that send the ball wild because you were aiming for a rollover for the 20th time. I also don't like the wide open outlanes that lead to the repetitive mini-games to save the ball. For what it's worth, since the two are always compared, Twilight Zone is one of my favorite games.

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I don't think people would have hated WOZ if it wasn't for all of Jack's bragging, insulting Gary Stern, and what some would call outright lies.
We will not ship a game with incomplete code.
I think everyone may have a surprise around Christmas.
Batting balls around in a cardboard box
Our games will all have hand drawn artwork.
2nd game is an original theme.
Our games are open source
Ruby

This^
Listening to Jack bashing Stern games ( along with playing WOZ several times throughout the various codes) at a couple of pinball expos convinced me that WOZ and JJP are not for me. The man just can't seem to get out of his own way. Everyone associated with pinball that I've met; Gary Stern, Steve Ritchie, etc have been nothing but class. The times I've met Jack, I walked away thinking the same thing.... "What a blowhard".

#19 5 years ago

I can't get into it at all.
Not big on the theme, the music makes me want to puke and the gameplay itself is rather meh.

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from gaspumprob:

Everyone I have played has had weak flippers, and other issues. Very frustrating. This is the cost of new technology. JJP will get the bugs out on future games.

If you know who owns the game, tell them to set the flipper coils stronger. Every coil in the game can be adjusted to your liking.

LTG : )™

#21 5 years ago

I raised my coil strength two steps higher and it makes a difference. If you set them too high it makes the game too easy. Did I use too correctly?

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

a distributer friend of mine said thet he will ebay his remaining games when he gets them and dump them at cost because no one is buying them

I'm in the market and like to know where to get this deal!

And teekee............who is this girl and where in the hell can I find more pictures of her

#23 5 years ago

I didn't

Quoted from zr11990:I raised my coil strength two steps higher and it makes a difference. If you set them too high it makes the game too easy. Did I use too correctly?

I didn't see any 2's or twos so I think your two toos were used the way too should be used to

#24 5 years ago

Why?

Because...

2011
2012
2013
2014
2015

That's why

Also I think Vid had a damn good reply & the last sentence from Ice was very true. Add in the reliability issues, glitches, theme, sounds, art & performance & now you know the most common reasons.

An authorized JJP Distro says he will dump his games at cost on ebay due to lack of demand? Doesn't surprise me & also proves that preorders more often than not are a bad idea. If his comments are true then machines will likely sell at launch prices or less.

This thread can only get worse now lol

#25 5 years ago

I would consider a WOZ LE if they were still $6,500/$7k and I didn't have to worry about part failures and/or warranty issues. No clue where those issues stand currently, but the perception is there. Above $7k it's too much of a risk for me...and a standard version above $6K is too much $ IMO.

But WHEN the game has been working right I've enjoyed it. Maybe someday all the issues will be worked out and all the games will have been delivered and the secondary market will be "real". Too much mystery for me for too high a price today.

If someone local to me wants to do a trade for my AVLE let me know. You know where I stand on value.

12
#26 5 years ago

For some reason WOZ brings people out. If you love the game you follow it, and if you hate the game you follow it more. It's a really interesting effect. If I dislike a game I usually don't follow it very much at all. I won't normally read Pinside threads about games I hate. But WOZ has a special power over people. For some reason disliking WOZ seems to make it irresistible. All you need to do is read the WOZ threads that have gone on here. Same people over and over that hate the game like moths to a flame.

#27 5 years ago

It seems like people really got their hopes up REALLY high about Woz. A new company with big ideas! I'm in!
Maybe Jack's fault, maybe most people just wanted something new/different.
When people get huge expectations about a product most will be let down no matter how great the product is.
People do this regularly - new cars, new golf clubs, new phones, new girlfriends.
I also had really high hopes for Woz, then realized it is hard to make a totally different/new game changing item that has been around for 80 years.

#28 5 years ago

Well, I didn't "prepay" I bought from a first owner so I have no "ill will" about waiting for my game. With that said ... I LOVE IT! Solid, beautiful and fun! Sure I've had a couple issues here and there but if it ain't broke then it ain't pinball. The game is fabulous, if you don't like it that's ok, that's why they make different games to purchase. But at the end of the day, everyone that has ever played my machine since owning it .... Loves it.

It's funny to me how many people comment on WOZ who have only played a couple games -- seems like you have to give it a real chance before you say it sucks, plus I don't understand the deal with the theme ... Sure I LOVE AC/DC and the rock -n- roll themes and I'm not ready to run out to rent The Wizard of Oz on BlueRay but it doesn't mean I would want every pinball game to be the same either. The WOZ theme gives a nice adventure theme if you ask me ... But again all this is only one guys opinion.

#29 5 years ago

I don't hate on the game but heavily dislike theme & sounds. If I had one I would play it , wouldn't ever buy one or pay to play it.

#30 5 years ago

I'm all for a new player in the pinball arena, it looks awesome with the lcd screen. Visually it's stunning. I've played it quite a few times and didn't think the gameplay was all that great. Probably the biggest flaw in the game.

It's kind of slow and two things I find annoying. One, the left drain outlane with the state fair bumper seems like wasted space, the ball is almost always gone when it gets there. That's usually where I loose my balls. It's also very wide.

Then the other is the right orbit lane that's under the second playfield with the house, it's very hard to anticipate when the balls comes down to use the upper flipper and I usually love making these side shots.

#31 5 years ago

1. Theme - dislike - not getting round that.
2. Gameplay - not enough satisfying shots.
3. Any system that is PC based has me nervous re long term reliability.

The Hobbit will be better from from has been shown so far.

#32 5 years ago

The theme is one of the worst picks of any starting company ever.

The pin is a fantastic product.

11
#33 5 years ago

I just dont get this slow play thing people keep using. Seriously I have lots of fast games (whitewater) Ive had stop and goes (TZ) but to say WOZ is slow to means people who say yhis have not played a woz for a period of time and or not set it up right. Its the only game that gives me soar arms trying to keep the ball(s) in play especially when you release the stacks! Crazy fun. Slow syop and go ....not so much!

#34 5 years ago

ha! love the spelling! hung over

#35 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I don't think people would have hated WOZ if it wasn't for all of Jack's bragging, insulting Gary Stern, and what some would call outright lies.
We will not ship a game with incomplete code.
I think everyone may have a surprise around Christmas.
Batting balls around in a cardboard box
Our games will all have hand drawn artwork.
2nd game is an original theme.
Our games are open source
Ruby

I think there is a lot of truth to this.

Still, I would say objectively WOZ still isn't the kind of pin that I would like in terms of gameplay, largely due to the fact that I don't care for mini playfields and WOZ has two of them. And there is a lack of satisfying shots.

#36 5 years ago

I try to give this machine a chance every couple weeks.. and I always seem to walk away unhappy. I've taken many non-pinhead friends to local arcades and put them in front of WoZ thinking that they would really get into the theme and how modern it feels, but every time, they play one game and say they don't like it and move on to something else.

I don't care about the personalities or politics involved in the making/selling of the game.. I have no bias. I've tried to judge the game for what it is. It's a gorgeous machine that just ultimately doesn't gel for me. My peeves:

- Gaping wide outlanes (especially the left) that gobble up balls -- often mere seconds after launching. They are somehow justified with a post-drain mini game (no place like home / toto) to save your ball. I feel like I'm spending more time trying to save my lost ball than actually making progress in the game. Very frustrating.

- Horrible ball save logic. Launch the ball and it hits almost nothing, bounces into the left outline and it's done. Here's your crappy bonus and we're on to the next ball. New Stern machines have much smarter ball saves which make the games much more fun.

- That wicked witch laugh and music that plays over and over and over and over and over. At Modern Pinball in NYC, the WoZ is right in front by the cash register counter. I'd go insane if I had to work there a single day and listen to that witch cackling all day.

#37 5 years ago

I have played it a few times, I just couldn't get into it. I don't mind the theme, but I don't like upper playfields in pinball. I have ACDC premium with the lower PF and don't mind that as much, but mini sub or raised playfields do not play like regular pinball, the shots are short and not a lot to aim for. However on ACDC at least it does not take up any real estate since that area is empty on most games. So in effect you still have a full game area to play with up top.

Woz has not one but two upper playfields to contend with. That's a big drawback for me.

One ramp is a big drawback for me, I don't have any games with one ramp, if given the choice between one ramp or 2 or 3 I'd prefer more ramps. Maybe the upper playfields took away to much area to allow multiple ramps?

I don't think the large LCD area is well used. I mean it's fine, but I think in a few years it will be surpassed in many ways by the code or utilization of this technology.

I didn't like TSPP either, so maybe it's just my taste in games, but it just didn't do it for me.

Also, the lack of GI on such a bright game is bad, and for them not to address this on later made games shows they don't care.

#38 5 years ago

OP!!! hook me up with your distributor contact, or anyone getting rid of one at a decent price let me know.

#39 5 years ago

Nothing against Jack, but he was too ambitious and clueless on what it would take to start this company.

Theme is a joke for most males............Myself included
Production time for this game was a joke............How many years has it took to get the people their games???
The game is nothing special, despite the 2 mini playfields, LEDs, LCD.......Did I forget any other BS selling points????

Pinball is pinball, it's all about all of the things men like i.e., Women, humor, adrenaline, music, lights, sounds, speed and customizing...............Jack in his foolish confidence and limited understanding of his true customer, thought WOZ would be the game that would save pinball.........LOL.

#40 5 years ago

Theme and play stinks. Slow play pin and left outline like stated above is terrible. Would never buy this game.

#41 5 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Also, the lack of GI on such a bright game is bad, and for them not to address this on later made games shows they don't care.

Ah yeah.. add this to my list, too. I don't bother to play this game at dark venues (JackBar) because the lack of GI and the bright LEDs blind me.

#42 5 years ago
Quoted from cheezywhiz:

- Gaping wide outlanes (especially the left) that gobble up balls -- often mere seconds after launching. They are somehow justified with a post-drain mini game (no place like home / toto) to save your ball. I feel like I'm spending more time trying to save my lost ball than actually making progress in the game. Very frustrating.

very true, I played the game initially on a prototype (but still paid game at an arcade) and there didn't seem to be any toto ball save and the state fair mini game (Ugg), I'd rather pull my teeth out than play a minigame. This ranks up there with mini playfields. It's not pinball, it's a different game, mini playfield, mini game. I feel like playing a minigame or smaller version of pinball I'll do that on an Ipad. I have a 400 lb pinball machine, I don't want to have all these marginal games to distract me.

I'm the same way with video modes or with backbox ping pong ball type games in a pinball machine. Just f-all that and let me play pinball.

The drain spots are very large and the side quests don't make up for that. However I do see that Toto save is cool and not a bad thing to have once I played it on the newer game, but still detest the state fair type side game.

#43 5 years ago

I have a friend who has one, he says wow it's such a good deal, it's got a high BOM cost for a not so high price. I'm like so what? I don't care if a game has a high BOM cost or low BOM cost, I care about if it's fun to play. I can see Tron is lower cost to make, it's got less gee-gaws or opening doors or tree pop bumpers or spinning houses with legs etc.. But to me, I don't care about the BOM, I care about the gameplay.

#44 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballHelp:

I notice that when you hear people criticize WOZ, all their arguments are mostly subjective.

That's the way it works when you are talking about liking something or not liking something. It's *always* subjective. Saying WOZ has two mini playfields is objective. Saying you don't like mini playfields is subjective.

Saying you don't like the gameplay of WOZ is subjective. That doesn't make those opinions any less valid.

Quoted from damionrowe:

Slow plodding gameplay. Terrible theme. Numerous ongoing tech issues. Horrible business plan and follow through from the sharks manufacturing and selling them. Take your pick.

13 thumbs up for this "subjective" post.

#45 5 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I don't think the large LCD area is well used. I mean it's fine, but I think in a few years it will be surpassed in many ways by the code or utilization of this technology.

I was surprised when I saw they had just framed the LCD in the backbox. I was initially expecting the LCD to be integrated with the backglass art somehow. Maybe a softer, irregular edge in the backglass art to make it look less like big monitor was just set in there. They could have even had different 'sections', like having the bottom half of the LCD mostly visible for large images and the top half being broken up into smaller sections that display key information. For some reason, this is more along the lines of what I was initially expecting when I heard about it.

#46 5 years ago

I would dare to say that if AC/DC or Star Trek is what you love then WoZ would not be your choice. This is just a generalization though and not true for all.

#47 5 years ago

I bought mine about a year ago through a distributor for inflated price. Been through the led thing and other tech bugs....all that being said I really enjoy the game. Everything working great now, latest code is very enjoyable, and I play it pretty much every night I'm in pinland. I like tinkering with these things, and feel I know it pretty well by now. Have I wanted to set it on fire a few times? Absolutely....but the same can be said about all of my games. The love/ hate thing is part of what I enjoy about the hobby.

It's a shot maker game ( like TZ, which I also enjoy), but "slow" is not a correct term IMO .....it has it's own feel, which for me, is a great alternative to some of my other games. Not for everyone, but what is?

Theme is fine for me...I think it would be hard to find a more " timeless" title that people will discuss generations from now ( not referring to the machine at all). With that, I think the machine too, marks an amazing time for the hobby......easily the most polarizing pin I'm aware of, and really can't imagine the infamy ever changing.

I didn't participate in the early buyin/ business speculation part of the Company, so I really have no way ( or intent) to comment intelligently on that.

Appreciate Jack and JJP, and personally love the game....is what it is.....mark

#48 5 years ago

Don't hate the game, but playfield layout is not my style.. for a widebody there's very few satisfying shots, and the third flipper that shoots to nowhere.. meh.

#49 5 years ago

Realize I just posted this on a " why do people hate WOZ" thread.....ha......guess I'll deserve some bashing for that......it's what I get for posting while watching a soccer game....

#50 5 years ago

Third flipper shot to nowhere, rollovers light multiball? The layout is just plain clunky and that's something even Keith Johnson can't save.

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