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(Topic ID: 262900)

Why do JJP NIB depreciate faster than the rest?

By delt31

7 months ago

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  • Latest reply 7 months ago by TheLaw
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#83 7 months ago
Quoted from delt31:

To be clear, this is not a fanboy topic as many are aware I judge all pinball companies equally and have no alliance. I own games from all of them and needless to say call them all out when it’s deserved.
My question is we can all agree JJP quality is top notch compared to competitors. Their games are almost all highly rated on the top 100. However for some reason, NIB JJP almost instantly drop 500-800 from NIB (9500 goes to 8800 very quickly on the used market and 8500 isn’t too far behind). Wonka the lastest but DI faced the same fate. Hobbit is one of the best buy’s as a result. Pirates is only expensive b/c it’s no longer being made and likely never will (Disney).
Why is that though? Compared to sterns, the drop rate I don’t believe is nearly as fast. Yes they have some LE sales clunkers that dropped quick (Monsters, BK, Sth) but typically those games don’t see they same type of drop that quickly.
I initially thought it was the higher end price they start with on almost all of their games BUT the Wonka standard came out with a great price and that game has also dropped around 1k+ to 6500 and I see them sit still! Dialed in is now more than 2k lower vs 9500 start.
So what do you guys think is driving this? It’s great for used market so I’m not complaining but it’s got to drive JJP nuts b/c the product they produce is typically very good.

All the reasons below might sum up why resale is so low on JJP machines:

1. They are the most overpriced machines on the market, (except Stern Beatles, Stern Elvira) JJP MSRP is way too high to the end buyer. Come on WOZ jumping from $6.5k to $11.5k with monkey mech removed? Apologist say they couldn’t make any money at those prices. JJP could not make money not because of low pricing of WOZ, but because of out of control company spending, by trying to maintain 2 separate operations far apart. Plus tons of after sales support issues eating up profits.

2. Like the game or not, Stern just made SW HE for a street price of $3,995.00. That is almost half the price of a JJP standard edition. Many buyers will not go for a $7.5k JJP Standard over a SW HE sold for $3.9k in general, although some pinheads don’t like SW. JJP pricing has been out of whack since WOZ was raised so high. WOZ was killing it when properly priced. Let’s face it, we the consumer of JJP products are paying for very poor spending habits and bloated budgets trying to run a split operation hundreds of miles a part. Full color printed owners Manuel’s? With tons of pages that were outdated the minute the next code release happened? 1 small example of bloated pricing.

2. JJP game ratings come from a small niche rating them, with rabid owners giving them all 9s. While Stern has a rabid hating anti fan base giving very low ratings to almost all their offerings.

3. JJP games have ongoing Maintence issues. People know this and therefore don’t want to buy unless the price is quite low. Support is mostly hard to get issues resolved in a timely fashion, if at all. It is well known you might be on your own fixing all the issues on JJP machines. Ask any operator how hard it is to maintain a JJP machine. Out of order more often than working on locations.

4. Manufacturing quality is some of the lowest in the business. (Remember JJP investors looking at Homepin’s manufacturing and saying how they were very impressed with the quality?)

5. Poor theme choices over and over again. Top rated themes sell for better money on the resale market, more than any other factor. (WOZ is very old and more of a child’s pinball theme, Hobbit is based on the poorly received films and not necessarily the book, quite niche to pinball, DI is not a good theme, POTC has been done before and without any real assets, just a good pirates game, WW is arguably good, but the game itself is more about collecting Wonka bars and not much about the actual movie. GNR has been done before & arguably not a great music band choice, Toy Story is the best of the lot theme wise and maybe a killer theme if done right with lots of mechs.)

6. JJP machines are excessively heavy to move.

All these issues drive prices down on the used market place. If I want to buy a JJP game, just wait and there will be plenty on the market used for heavy discounts. More heavily discounted than any other companies offerings. History has proven that.

Think this move to Chicago area could be the best thing for JJP to get lower pricing back inline and hopefully resolve the issues above so us buyers don’t keep taking it on the chin when trying to resell any JJP pin.

#87 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

So you roll into the hobby a year ago and now already know the full extent of everyone's support history and what it takes to maintain games? You are so full of it you alone are going to make California fall into the ocean.
Support from JJP is no harder to get than the average. Don't confuse "JJP Didn't give me what I want!" with little or no support. JJP support is very good in many fronts... documentation is excellent, firmware support is awesome, diagnostics abilities are high, they have people you can call, they get back to you with tickets. The generalization that their support is bad or 'hard to get issues resolved' is bunkus. That's just regurgitation bullshit.
Their manufacturing quality is very high. Their QC at times has been up and down, but largely only with early shipments.. which is not uncommon elsewhere too. Their materials are usually very good. They don't skimp on engineering.
And FFS... no one is paying less for WOZ or DI because they weigh 60lbs more..... just like no one is paying more for current sterns because the metal backbox and spike board system reduced unit weights. GTFO of here with these ridiculous assessments. You don't know crap.

There you go again with all your pontificating and unkind remarks toward me and Stern. I respect others viewpoints even when they don’t agree with mine, all decent human beings do too. This is a forum where we discuss our opinions, that’s it. Putting down others shows no class at all. Raise your level of decency, please.

#93 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I respect other opinions - I don't respect complete baseless garbage. Bring some credibility and maybe you'll see a different response to your posts. But the type of non-sense you've been spewing over the last week is not worthy of anything but being called out as non-sense.
If you want your 'opinions' respected - make them worthy of it.
And what did I say anything about Stern? You're showing your own biases there..

My posts do have credibility from what I’ve learned over time and from business acumen. Again, being nasty appears to be your only recourse when confronted with all your JJP myths disappearing before you. It must be really tough for you to accept. Small mindedness.

#94 7 months ago
Quoted from Lermods:

I don’t agree with the OPs claim. Deadpool LE can be had for $1000 off retail, many other LEs drop that much if not more. Many recent stern pro models are in the mid-4K range off a retail of $5700-5900. Acdc premium seems to go for low 6s to high 5s off retail of over $7. I bought DI nib at retail, sold for same price, potcle price rose sharply. Woz prices seem to hold up fairly well despite repeated runs. Hobbit has held up well in mid to upper 6s to low 7s off a retail of about $7300. I don’t think you can easily find wonka standard for $6500. I had someone offer me 7300 for my standard. I’m less familiar with AP, but hasn’t Houdini fallen sharply?

You are one of the lucky few that knows how to move a JJP high priced used machine. Being in the business, I’m sure you have connections and skills the rest of us don’t share. I’ve been through attempting to get rid of JJP machines at very discounted prices. Buyers have tried to get rid of 2nd hand after me and one still has it on the market over a year later with no buyers in sight. Even with him willing to take a huge loss.

Delt31 premise is unfortunately correct, if you just look at the history of JJP games on the resale market. Used market buyers really hammer over the many issues well known about JJP games. Troubled and lesser titles of Stern games have similar issues. Only top tier licenses like, Batman, JP2, SW, DP, Star Trek, GB etc. generally don’t have these issues.

#96 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

You keep calling me nasty and call me names... but have you noticed I address the points brought up in the post - not simply attack the person. Funny, your posts never seem to do that? Just try to paint the poster as some skewed thing or call them names.
Keep thinking JJP prices are what they are because the games are too heavy... and they have flaws in their 'balance'. That was some real prime shit!

Lol, you take the cake and focus on only one or two things. Certainly weight is minor, but a big deal for the high costs for JJP. I’ve addressed directly the issues we’ve been discussing. Calling out nasty behavior is simply that, not name calling as you presume. I realize, posting here is your life, so I don’t want to make you feel sad. Carry on, just learn to be nice in so doing. This isn’t a grade school yard, grow up my friend. Foul low gutter language is quite unbecoming don’t you think? Raise your level of civility and you’ll sleep much better. Lol.

#100 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Oh thank god you are here to show me the way! How have I survived all these decades without the Jim West School of Internet... thank you thank you!! I can't wait for the associate diploma offer from the Jim West passive aggressive clinics. It really feels great after wandering the desert of hopelessness since the 80s... wondering, why do I feel so empty? To now... since you graced us with your acumen... to finally feel whole. What a week!
Now if you could only explain how things like weight are MINOR... yet at the same time a BIG DEAL for high costs at the same time for JJP... yet NO OTHER PINBALLS. Kaythxbye!
Asking for all those TAF sellers who find they aren't getting their weight reduction bonuses vs their TZ brethren.

Lol, very funny and creative! I graduate you from the Jim West School of Pinball with only an associate degree for the time being. More degrees to follow after showing a willingness to learn and grow from the experience. Lol

Look this is what it boils down to (to get back on the subject matter):
Pinball machines either hold or lose value based on 2 things -

1. Intellectual Property value

2. Machine reputation value

If the title has both those things going for it, then it holds value. If it doesn’t, it plummets in value, hence the discussion in this thread. As another poster said, he looks through the owners threads of IPs that interest him and if the machines reputation is good, he’ll consider a purchase on the used market.

If the owners thread is full of problems, which past JJP machines owners threads are full of and ongoing headaches are apparent, he will not buy or take a chance unless the price is real low. Used buyers are going to use that information to beat down sellers, which brings resale value down considerably. JJP resale history has proven this to be true.

Also, having so many old weak IPs that have not maintained good longevity value with the used buying market, prices are always are going to be much lower than say a Star Wars themed very popular IP. Even though a JJP table may have much better populated playfields with many more mechs and toys. The used market will not recognize that as real value, because they can have just as much fun on a used Stern Pro with a top tier IP for half the price. User experience is part of the reputation.

You and I may really like and prefer the software depth of a JJP machine, but most used buyers don’t care. They look only at numbers 1 & 2 written above and a Stern Pro at half price on the used market looks pretty good to them.

With the new consolidated leaner operation now happening and if JJP pricing would come more inline with a Stern pro, premium and LE, by lowering prices $2k to be inline with their competition, along with obtaining top notch IP’s like Stern has, JJP will soar to new heights.

#102 7 months ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Jjp doesn't do pros... heck even the standard offers more than sterns premium and the le are about the same price also. Also have you seen all the issues with stern pins lately? They all lose about the same percentage wise from my experience and the stern pros I have bought were actually a bigger hit for me. Jjp Potc was notorious for issues and look where they have went on price?. Even used wonka le are still getting 8500-8900 which is awesome considering its 9500 nib. . I also much perfer jjp pins and have had to do less fixes on them than any other and they are so great in the code department for home use. I like the stern pins also but they really need to stop being cheap and stop releasing them with bare minimum code. They also need to test things better bc stranger things had so man issues out of the box and no one wants to tear a brand new game apart to fix it.
Overall we are super lucky we can recoup what we do and its a huge reason why the hobby is so strong and popular at the moment. What other hobby can you get 75 percent of cost back after playing it for months/years and in some cases you can make money if you buy smart huo. I have made thousands selling my used jjp pins and thats not including potc
In the end many factors play into where the used price is but overall most lose between 400-1750 depending on the model.

Interesting viewpoint. However, in reality:

Stern Pro $5500 equals a JJP Standard $7500
Stern Pre $7500 equals a JJP LE $9500 (I know the name LE is used by JJP, but you and I know, 5,000 of anything in pinball is not really limited)
Stern LE $9000 equals a JJP CE $12500 (both machines are truly limited to 500 units that’s it and is their top of the line offering.)

People may say one has more than the other, but buyers don’t associate bullet points with fun. Bullet points do not keep resale values high, fun gaming experience does. That’s why a Stern Pro with less, but has a top tier IP, will always sell better than an equivalent JJP standard even though some think it has more. I would argue that WW, mech wise is about the same as Jurassic Park Pro feature wise. One example: WW has 2 ramps. JP2 has 4 ramps.

JJP machines are priced $2k too high against their competition. WW is pretty slim in mechs, compared to DI for example. JJP is beginning to see the light, but price is still the major issue.

#104 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

JJP doesn't do Pros. Comparing a stripped out bare Stern pro to a JJP Standard is idiotic. If you're going to be that ridiculous, why not compare JJP Standard to Stern home pins?
Stern Pre $7,500 = JJP Standard $7,500.
Stern LE $9,000 = JJP LE $9,500
Stern SLE $15,000 = JJP CE $12,500
THAT is the correct comparison chart.

How is this correct??? That is not comparing apples to apples and is idiotic. Reread post above.

Some try to rationalize that JJP doesn’t do Pros, but their standard offering is indeed in the Pro position and WW does not offer that much more than JP2. Do the bullet points if you think otherwise. They’re pretty equal. And certainly art wise there is zero comparison between WW standard and JP2 Pro. JP2 has vastly superior Pro art package over WW standard art package.

Stern SLE comparing is really idiotic, as those have only been made twice in the whole history of Stern. Batman SLE limited to 80, not 500 like JJP CEs. Or Elvira limited to 50. You’re up in the night with that false notion. JJP CEs are the most overpriced machines on the market period. Only Beatles Diamonds were more ridiculously priced and Elvira SLE (Batman SLE have increased in value many times original price - no JJP CE compares at all to these and do not hold used market value, except maybe POTC CE).

#106 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

You're severely out of touch or just trolling.
Just because JJP doesn't OFFER a completely stripped out model of their machines doesn't mean you should compare a Stern Pro to a JJP Standard. A JJP Standard is feature-wise much closer to a Stern Premium.
Here's a quick comparison I did. Stern Pro is superior to a JJP Standard in 0% of the categories, losing most of them by 50-100% less of that item category on the BOM. I did this from memory, but it's pretty close and the POINT is clear. Your comparison is moronic. You don't have a leg to stand on, except for something subjective like "I like it better" which is the only point you can't be challenged on. But if that's your criteria, just admit it and stop pressing a point that has no basis in reality.[quoted image]

Was hoping you’d take the time to compare (fun discussion - thanks!). No used JJP buyer cares about those bullet points. Reread what I said about the 2 points. It appears you’re JJP bias is not allowing you to fully comprehend.

But we are discussing resale value and why JJP machines all plummet in value. There are differences for sure, but my point is the used buying public doesn’t care one has 24 coils and the other half. They look at gaming experience. Just like Apple phones don’t have the big specs of an android phone, but user experience is considered superior by many, so on the used market Iphones hold value, while double or triple spec points on Androids plummet in value on the used market.

Some of your chart is subjective and you know it. Come on, coil stops? I’ve got over a 1,000 plays on my JP2 with no coil stop issues for example and the cabinet is just as heavy duty. LCD is a non issue. 2nd screen is almost useless on WW, just like it is on Batman. Sculpts, that is laughable, as the ompa lompa breaks off on air ball hits. Spinning gobbstopper sculp? Lol! Full RGB lighting is very confusing to most players and harms JJP machines than helps. Players don’t know what to shoot. Could go on and on with the holes in your chart. Lol.

Quite accusing of trolling, as we are discussing used pricing issues here and I’ve stayed on topic. Moronic is the point of much of your posts. It is your life and you feel threatened by the truth being presented here. To that, don’t feel bad, keep on posting. Sometimes you make some good points I enjoy reading.

#110 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Absolutes are almost never true, and neither is this ridiculous statement of yours. Period. But such a crazy statment disconnected from reality is not surprising looking at your pinside pinball machine sales history. ZERO listed. ZERO sold. Apparently you are drawing on a depth of non-firsthand and fantasy knowledge. Your completely out of touch opinions about resale values all make sense now.
Check out my sales history. I've listed 40 on pinside, many of which were sold here. I've probably bought and sold well over 100 pins from all eras. Here's an example or two: We sold jjPotC for $3000 more than we bought it for new. People that bought jjPotC CEs are selling them used for about $6000-$8000 more than they paid. That's nothing to sneeze at. I've never had a pinball machine depreciate as fast as Stern Munsters. We sold it in its first month and ate $600. Ask the Stern Beatles Diamond buyers about their depreciation. It's around 50%. JJP has some pins that are better than others, but only Hobbit is a resale dud. Most JJP are about in the middle of the resale road compared to Stern Premiums. Your theory simply is wrong.

Nope, not making the mistake of putting that history in there for you to use as a battering ram! Lol You’re taking issues with the title of this thread. Why do JJP NIB depreciate faster than the rest? That seems to mean they all have that issue (except for the POTC machines which are truly limited - which I’ve already acknowledged), go down in value. Lol

Stop reaching so hard. I said Beatles machines were a huge blunder by Stern. Munsters is a frustration for sure, because Stern really cheated buyers on the lack of code so far. So we are agreeing on that. Hold your chin up and be calm, this is just a discussion of viewpoints. Not going to compare my sales history with yours, as you want a “my dog is bigger than your dog” discussion. Stay on the topic of this thread and stop with the nonsense and insults. Is this a trend of you full time posters on Pinside, to denigrate others to prop up your own viewpoints??? Growing up might be in order for you.

#114 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

If Jack re-runs jjPotC, it will be for YBR money, which is $11,500 for an LE, and he'll sell 500 or more no problem. That will keep existing LE pricing in that ballpark - they're not going down to $8k.

You’re dreaming about selling out of new POTC, unless they fix the myriad of issues they currently have. You might read the owners threads to find out. Loaded with nightmare problems. That doesn’t usually indicate a sell out of new machines will happen. Rarity means sell out and higher prices. Hope you get that much...

#115 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

You can't say ALL and then EXCEPT - once you say "EXCEPT" it's AUTOMATICALLY not "ALL." I'm done. You're living in a different reality with no expertise and lots of opinions that make no sense.

Is put down the best defense you always return to? Very sad my friend, very sad and so shallow. Let’s keep discussing as I do enjoy some of your points.

#151 7 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Did any title depreciate faster than Stern Munsters LE/Pre? Asking for a friend......

This is all over Stern selfishly withholding proper full coding from the machine. Stern should be beat with a cat of nine tails for this. It’s inexcusable there is so little code in that game. They should hang their heads in shame for what they’ve done to those owners. At those prices, it deserves lots more depth of coding.

#186 7 months ago
Quoted from graffixpinball:

Plus, most operators are not buying these JJP machines. They are an operator's worst nightmare. They have hard to find parts, they are wide body (which makes it a pain the move around since they are heavy) and they are almost to busy for the average pinball novice. Plus - the more moving components, the more they are broken and not making any coin. JJP has to be the worst of them out there.

When you are dealing with a company that is aiming for the home use market, thats what will happen - seriously decreased secondary market pricing.

As a route operator who cleans money out of machines weekly, I know what machines get played the most. Stern is the big winner in the end. They are strong, light, and have familiar titles. Plus Stern takes care of me, with any parts that are broken or defected, they always answer the phone, they are not rude, and they are prompt with shipping. And most important - they have parts availability everywhere. Its like a 350 chevy!

You are proving all my points right down the line of why JJP games plummet on the used market. I was down voted at saying how heavy they are and all the issues with wide bodies. If JJP would only really listen to what we are saying here and change direction, they could become a true competitor in the market place. I know some distributors are constantly telling them they need to bring down prices and improve quality, even if it means making games with a few less mechs in them. But mechs and coils are not the issue here, they don’t cost that much, it has been JJPs bloated irresponsible operational spending habits and poor IPs.

JJP games are in fact an “operator’s worst nightmare”, but they are also a home owner’s worst nightmare too! Not trying to put down JJP, rather tell it like it really is. JJP fanboys cannot stand to hear the truth, but they all know how difficult they are to maintain and so does JJP. This is exactly why WW is so stripped down compared to the other offerings.

Until JJP wakes up and brings pricing down and realizes that their 3 tier system is just like their competitors (Stern), except they use different naming nomenclature is the only real difference. Sure WW has a few more coils, but coils only cost a few dollars each. Mushy flippers, ramps and habit trail issues (the ball settling in the middle of a habit trail and not moving), mechs that don’t work properly, etc. I had to take the Quantum theater completely apart and rig a way to keep the optos in place, so it would function for example. Most owners have to do this too. On WOZ, so many issues too numerous to detail here. POTC manufacturing was stopped because of all the mechanical issues. It was breaking JJP to do all of the after market support on them. Cannot see JJP making another run, unless all the issues POTC has, received reworked engineering made to last.

Stern has their issues too, but for the most part, they just work and keep on working, is what all my operator friends tell me. Stern’s distributor network is vast and well stocked with parts for support. JJP can turn this all around with new centralized direction, much lower pricing and smarter more lean operating budgets like Stern has. That way, JJP won’t have to add a bloated operational tax of $2,000.00 to $3,500.00 additional pricing (compared to similar Stern 3 tier offerings) on each machine to cover those costs. They aren’t adding $2k because the actual BOM is so much greater, it’s the bloated operation budget losses, we are paying for when we buy one of their machines.

All reasons why JJP machines go down in value on the secondary market, as being discussed in this thread.

#193 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

No I watched it and I recall the discussions from the time. You're also talking about statements made before reality hit. That video was from Nov 2011 - they were nearly a year and half from actual production shipping and they only had a whitewood at that point. Jack even says at that point he didn't even have an idea what his BOM was. He was still in his 'make the best game possible, no limits' phase where the sky was the limit. He was trying to enable his team to just make the best thing possible and had a "if you build it, they will come..." mindset. He knew from his route experience that high prices don't deter Ops if the earnings are there. They still had their ticket redemption effort in front of them, etc.
Look, I'm not saying Jack didn't want the Operators or didn't think WoZ was for them -- but what I'm saying is they didn't put the Ops first and since have exaggerated that difference with their product strategy. He had this vision of a Cadillac game that Stern was going AWAY from at an accelerated pace. He felt there was a market from the loaded games.. and he proved it and changed the way everyone markets pinball. And in doing so, they focused more and more on that Trophy Game as the centerpiece of the JJP brand identity. That was reflected in their products released from Ruby Red all the way until the Wonka launch.
With Wonka we saw a change in the messaging and focus... an attempt at making statements that this game is BUILT to be a coin eater, reliable on site, focus on 'fun', etc. I don't think we have enough reference points yet to see just how far those changes have really gone into the design principles governing JJP choices.
It's one thing to SAY something - It's another thing to support it with your actions and sacrifice something to stay true to that. JJP wanted to build Cadillac games and since the reality of what WOZ really would take... has been whale hunting ever since. Now we have Lawlor not just building games, but driving the bus... it will be interesting to see if the focus changes they communicated with Wonka continue in earnest.

You should write Jack’s/JJPs biography, you write with such devoted

“Jack even says at that point he didn't even have an idea what his BOM was.” This is the core issue I’m talking about. If you have no idea what your BOM is all about, you don’t have an idea what any budgets are about operations wise either, which causes all kinds of domino effects system wide. It is this reckless abandon to business fundamentals that has harmed JJP over the years and caused such high MSRP pricing (It’s not the actual BOM that apologist like to point to causing such high MSRP, because we all know the BOM is not that high to make a’s because someone has to pay for all the blunders...yes, it’s us the consumer). This principle is at the core of the end result of why resale values fall. The market factors this in naturally. If you try to make a Mercedes, but in reality it is a Delorean...well you know the rest of the story. They went out of business...

#195 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

More grabbing at straws. Its already been shown that JJP games don’t keep falling. Second... you already outlined your justifications and never mentioned this until now..l so that’s changing your story. Three... you are apparently completely oblivious that this hobby will throw money at any company regardless of the viability (or even complete lack of) of their business plan.
Name a price and product strategy that can never work? Sure..take my money (jpop)
Put out a prototype and have no story or credibility to actually produce games? Take our money! (Jpop)
Pay a premium to Buy a game from a completely bankrupt company? Take our money! (Hwp, jpop)
Promise to deliver unicorns and rainbows? We are ready to believe! (Deeproot)
Promise to deliver products everyone knows are illegal copies and could be shutdown or blocked? I don’t care..l take our money!
Promise to deliver products with zero track record or even know who the people are? Shut up and take our money! (Book deals, countless mods)
The majority of the games in the market are from games that are no longer in business
Every pinball startup has come to market without any form of confidence in their long term viability. Even stern was operating with the fear of shutting down. The speculation on rarity has actually driven most of those games up in value... not down.
TLDR - this hobby has shown over and over it doesn’t care one bit about company longevity as long as they get what they want now.

Throwing you gold grabbing needed, lol. All from JW University.

#196 7 months ago

Jack’s latest interview about moving to Chicago because they outgrew their NJ building is the biggest load of crock ever. Everyone sees through that. No way that is the reason or even true. Like Kaneda said, he’s lying and not telling us the real reasons we all know, which is to save the company. This kind of stuff sure doesn’t help resale prices on JJP machines.

#199 7 months ago

Did Pinside censor Icemans thread from yesterday and take it down?

#215 7 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

Everybody is if they turn it on in their settings.
PM Robin to find out if there is an issue.
LTG : )

Please tell us where you turn it on in settings? I go to the place to find the basement in the left colum like thelaw’s screen shot, but no setting grayed out. Where can we change this in settings?

It is despicable that Robin is censoring adults and making iceman44 thread difficult to find. One of the more interesting threads and would say most people would like to see it, not be forced to be left out.

#220 7 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

Go to your own page. Dig around in there for Forum Settings. Hiding Content From View.
Two choices - check the one you want. Hide Basement. Or Include Basement.
When you include it. It appears on the forum page for you on the left side.
Robin isn't censoring it. You censored yourself.
LTG : )

Pretty sure I did not censure myself. Still have not found where to view so called basement after checking box saying to unhide default setting. Robin has created a forum where we cannot fully use it, unless we get a Pinside degree. That is censoring us adults and uncalled for. He has purposely made it difficult, which is plain to see and complete rubbish for an open forum of mostly adults I assume. Very irritated by this and still cannot find the thread. Where is the basement sub cat. after unchecking the hide button? Does not show up anywhere that I can find...

Any other ideas? And thanks for your help, I know you did not create this obnoxious roadblock. Pinside needs to really change this from a default setting that is so difficult to implement, if they wish for us users to continue our financial support.
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#223 7 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

Refresh your browser or page, see if it pops up on the left.
If not send Robin a PM for more help.
And would you knock it off with the censure shit. The basement was created as a place for certain threads many would take offense to. Trying to make Pinside a friendlier place for all. So you don't have a free for all on the forum.

It feels like censoring to have a thread discussing a company going to the basement, making it very difficult to find. Cannot see anything anyone other than JJP would take offense to in iceman44 thread. That’s part of being a company, to be able to take customer scrutiny. All customers do this with all companies. No company is exempt. Piling on Stern happens all the time and you don’t see those threads going to the “basement”.

I do agree, we need to keep this a more friendly place. It is understandable that crude, lewd, and disgusting topics should be put in the basement. That is a good place for them, where many would and should take offense. They in fact should be censored that way.

Thanks for the suggestions on refreshing the browser, will try it. And do appreciate your support here on Pinside. Keep the “knock it offs” to yourself, although...

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