This is all over Stern selfishly withholding proper full coding from the machine. Stern should be beat with a cat of nine tails for this. It’s inexcusable there is so little code in that game. They should hang their heads in shame for what they’ve done to those owners. At those prices, it deserves lots more depth of coding.

They all seem to be on a depreciation down spiral....Its definitely not limited to JJP games. Most if not all Stern games have depreciated as much if not more. Just look at Munster LE's .... every now and then u get a great game thats pretty limited like POTC, which as we know has increased in price 30%+

This thread is funny it's all the usual suspects spewing all the same shit

I think it was more than timing... it had to be fiscal pressure too. I don't think its a coincidence that the next game in the pipe was Wonka... which was expected to be a big draw as a lawlor title.. and internally they were shooting for a different price point with wonka.

It's my speculation that the game was too expensive to build and when faced with the decision to commit to the next round of parts and production time... they looked at the soft sales of POTC and opt'd to push forward with Wonka as a better margin build and better forecast for sales. Basically... commit to another 4+ months of trying to build a lower margin game... with a very soft sales outlook... or pull the plug and race to the title they think would sell better and actually be able to make money on. They picked the latter.

The reaction and tone when it went public that they weren't building more POTC was pretty telling IMO. I don't think it was a choice Jack or Eric agreed with... I speculate they got overridden and told to shelf the game to get Wonka out and in volume. That's me reading tea leaves tho...

Yeah. Only games with low production counts that have near universal praise will go up in value when they cost $9k-$10k to begin with. If Pirates and Batman 66 LE's were in made in much greater quantities then resale value would be lower.

Yep.....and frankly its all luck on the consumers part as we never really know production plans let alone if a game will have universal praise...in my mind the big difference between JJP and Stern is most JJP games ship fairly complete with code. It could be years before Stern finishes code

First comment on the question for me and I did not read through the thread so forgive me if this is redundant. JJP has zero credibility when it comes to LE runs. After Woz and Hobbit sold multiple versions of LE's, they are more trim options than actual LE's which cause price drops. CE's are are stretch for customers to justify - meaning they offer little for the cost difference - but they tend to hold MSRP much better than an LE versions.

Jack needs to realize they are not Stern nor do they need to be. They build the best machines but need to rebuild consumer confidence with the LE run totals.
Set a number and stick to it. I believe they will stick to Wonka LE numbers only because it will be years before they sell 5000 if they reach that mark. If they ever reach 5k LE sold mark my words they will make another "golden ticket edition". Last I had heard, 8 months or so into selling Wonka LE's, they are stills shipping LE numbers under 1k.

Love my Wonka LE - liked my Wonka SE but do I think its rare or limited - absolutely not....and that is why the prices drop IMO.
POTC will continue to flounder up and down on speculation JJP will ramp up and make it again. If it is ever remade prices will drop to or below original MSRP and that is when I will get my POTC LE.

Tell your friend probably not...it's pretty much at the top of "prehype, then hate " heap at the moment.

I love the thing, and in Stern fashion ( aka KISS) code will come someday, making the game more appealing to the masses. A very fun pin, despite popular opinion...

The theory that it will not be remade is foolish. Stern does vault and different runs, Munsters premium color and Star Wars comic are just a couple recent ones. Even if a company stops producing pins doesn’t mean they won’t be remade, see CGC. If there is demand, it will happen. It is silly to point to one manufacture without recognizing the trend in the industry. BTW even Spooky has said if there are enough orders they will do another run of TNA.

When was the last time a manufacturer re-released a pin for less? All of the vaults are higher than the originals, the vault of the vault Ironman is more than the vault. CGC re-re-released Medival Madness it is more than the re-released version. JJP Ruby Red and the YBR are both more than the original.If a manufacturer is going to offer another version it will cost more than the original.

Translation, truly limited matters.

And those game will drop significantly over time.

Essentially, any game purchased NIB today is a BAD proposition for resale value. Period.

If JJP can get $12.5K for a rerun of POTCLE than they will probably do it at some point (if they have the cash to do it)....ZERO chance it will sell at its original price of $9500

If they do a simple change to the lower playfield to make it more of the cast and less of a giant johnny depp they would get $12,500 all day long and sell at least 500, if not 1000 or more. That wouldn't dilute the pool of jjPotC LEs out there already, either.

I thought maybe the recent revelation that Depp was a victim of domestic violence rather than the purveyor may have changed that and made it sociably acceptable again?

https://amp.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/eyp2d3/audio_of_amber_heard_admitting_she_was_the_one/

It's not up to JJP whether it gets remade... it's up to DISNEY. And up to a week ago, bets were.... "not gonna happen". But then as MikeS pointed out, Depp kept his cool by not voicing to the media, and now the revelations are that HE was the victim of domestic violence. There's supposedly even a recording that Amber says "who would believe you against a woman"? So it would be viable it seems that Disney's decision could thaw... and if we see that the Pirates 6 movie get's green lit again (it was in preproduction when Amber filed her suit) then all bets are ON! : )

I suspect if we looked or had the ability to look there are all sorts of fresh potc licensed merch that continues to come out. Why would they stop a pinball from being re-released?

I'm sure your correct, but most likely a problem that can be solved....I think it really comes down to economics....my guess is they made very little money on the initial run of a 1000 units so they would have to convince their capital partners that allocating resources on another run made sense (even at $12K+)....my guess is they won't make another run until they are profitable, which may be several years or never (although I hope I'm wrong)

The same reason they stopped production on pirates 6. But that's all about to change. Here we go!!!!

https://insidethemagic.net/2020/02/rumors-johnny-depp-pirates-of-the-caribbean-ro1/

I'm shocked they would turn off the merchandise cash taps, movie or not.

This is what I think - I think its as simple as market share - how many of them are out there. Stern is the heavy hitter with the most active sales and machines on the market. They have a plethora of parts available, and everybody who has any pinball experience can work on them. I currently own a dozen machines, all on route. But the heavy hitters are Stern, and Chicago Gaming. But in the end I only buy what the average customer wants to play. I also think you guys are missing some of the big companies that are buying pinball. The route operators. This also effects the pricing of games in a big way.

Example: I wouldn't waste money on premium models (unless it was a bargain price), and certainly not an LE - but thats because I am making money with the machines, not hoarding them for collecting purposes. My customers are paying a dollar to play - they won't walk away if it isn't a "premium". That's why I stick with pros. Chances are that the secondary machine market values will go up as the NIB prices climb, and that includes all of the brands. But while you can buy Sterns new for $5500, then that will be your bar set for secondary pricing. The lowest price machines. Plus, most operators are not buying these JJP machines. They are an operator's worst nightmare. They have hard to find parts, they are wide body (which makes it a pain the move around since they are heavy) and they are almost to busy for the average pinball novice. Plus - the more moving components, the more they are broken and not making any coin. JJP has to be the worst of them out there.

They are designed for the pinball players at home - not for the average millennial at a pincade. I get it - pinball has turned into a home hobby lately, but route operators are still the ones buying 10-50 NIB, or even more per year. Most home owners might buy one maybe two games a year? When you are dealing with a company that is aiming for the home use market, thats what will happen - seriously decreased secondary market pricing. It's a pinball machine - play it, enjoy it, maybe make some money on it by introducing it to people in the public. Why people buy these for an investment purpose.. is beyond me. Maybe try investing in real estate instead. They are games at the end of the day after all. I am not saying they don't ascend in value, but in the end it's only worth what people will pay for them.

As a route operator who cleans money out of machines weekly, I know what machines get played the most. Stern is the big winner in the end. They are strong, light, and have familiar titles. Plus Stern takes care of me, with any parts that are broken or defected, they always answer the phone, they are not rude, and they are prompt with shipping. And most important - they have parts availability everywhere. Its like a 350 chevy!

The funny thing is - nobody has mentioned Chicago Gaming on this thread. They have a more expensive machines and they are doing well on the secondary market.. just saying. They have solid machines, they never break down and have titles that are very popular and proven. Operators dream.

I was following JJpotc closely at the time (even went to play a demo of the 3 disc prototype) and seem to recall that the delays in actually getting it out to customers put it close to their next title announcement. I figured why not wait to see the new game, (which I wrongly thought would be even more innovative) and if I don’t like it then i’ll order a Pirates. By the time of the Wonka (a theme I was highly interested in) reveal they had stopped making jjpotc and only standards were still available, which at the time seemed like a mistake to not spend a grand more and get (I think it was) 5 enhanced options.

Now of course I’m bummed I Hesitated on a Pirates LE and even if they rerelease, 12 grand means I’m probably out. I had bought a TAF before JJP4 was announced just to have one game until I decided which JJP to get, and now I’m appreciating it more and more. However I still would still someday like to find that one deep ruled, fully packed game to keep in my living room as I only have space for one machine.

There's that, but then there's just the fact that it's too much face for that area. It's not Angus Young bad, but it's just too much.

You bring up great points about routing them. The availability of parts from more than just the company themselves should not be overlooked. The JJP games my peers have had on route had had good reliability (hobbit,di,wonka) but their earnings rarely justify the 50%+ unit cost.

I can only speak for Hobbit. The answer is because its a turd.

If I didn't know better, I'd ask you if you're new to the hobby.

"I'm not building a home game. I'm not not building a game for us. It's not built for that. This is built as a commercial game to go out on location".

jjPotC destroyed everything else on the route I helped with at $1.50/play with 4 balls. Instantly went to #1 earner and stayed there the whole time. It was fluctuating between 50% and 100% more than the next highest pin on a monthly basis. The 4 balls per game seemed to give enough value that no one complained about the $1.50/play.

We were at Disney World at New Years, and while there was LOADS of POTC merch for sale at the ride.... we didn't see any with Depp's Captain Jack likeness. The wheels were in motion. There was even talk in late 2019 that Depp's likeness "may" be removed from the ride itself. Thank goodness the truth has won... as far as we know it. But regarding your comment... the tap wasn't turned off... it was just a different flavor. ; )

Come on... you know that was just sales talk. That was classic "yes its for everyone.." (dont niche yourself) posturing.

They make sure it can be a commercial piece... but it was never in the design DNA that steered their decision making. Concepts like pure cosmetic upgrades, collector editions, black arrow, YBR... none of that is operator focused design.

JJP from the outset set out to make that premium, top shelf type of game. That... not roi or earnings reports seem to drive their design choices. They want their games on location... but its not their primary customer. Otherwise they wouldn't be pushing 11k games knowing they can't earn enough to justify tgat price point vs a game costing less than half of that.

They dont aim to compete with a stern pro

I can’t speak for the pinball scene in Wyoming, but...oh hell, sure I will. I’ll bet Stern’s are more popular out there, on theme alone. Won’t go in to my theories as to why.

Also, ya got a lot of location pinball out there? Because if you don’t, customers are going to play what’s in front of them and like it. My guess is, ya don’t. But I hope I’m wrong.

In NYC area, I decide what I want to play and then go to the locations that have those games. JJPs and Stern Premiums and LEs are often very much part of that equation. Maybe route operators out here are just cooler? Because we have JJPs and Stern LEs all over the place. And Spooky and CGC. But more like they realize that offering a lot of options is good for business, and keeps people coming in the door. That and, I’ve heard, JJPs frequently kill on route.

Reliability, hmm, for as many problems as Stern has, I imagine a Stern pro is more reliable. When there’s nothing in the game there’s nothing to break. Genius move.

Well you left out the mafia style sales tactics(exaggeration) from Stern to Ops.

Yeah but locations like sunshine, jackbar, etc are not typical. They also aren’t necessarily running things as a for profit, but often as a passion with something else carrying the bag. Like Moms Organic in DC area... nearly 50 games... many A titles, all on 50c. Its not because that’s the best business but because the owner can afford to run his passion project how he wants.

TLDR - make sure you’re looking at something trying to run profitable when talking what works or not in operating pins

I knew I could count on you to pull this again

Add another thread to the LONG list

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/search?s=1&what=posts&q=Hobbit&topic-machine=&pinsider=CSCMTP&age_days=&subforum=0&sort_by=date&sort_order=DESC#results

I'm not sure how "I'm not building a home game" is a yes to everyone. You obviously didn't watch the video.

Again, watch the video. Operators and ROI were Jack's primary targets. He literally uses the term primarily. He said basically the same thing at all the seminars. Jack has worn a lot of hats in his career, but he's most proud of being a former operator. I understand this as I'm a former operator. I got a lot of enjoyment from providing games for people to have fun with. Jack was riding the high from his WOZ pusher being a success with the public and operators and he thought he could do the same with a WOZ pin.

He talked trash about Stern at seminars. Seems like some of those videos are deleted now. He wanted to compete with Stern, but found out it wasn't as easy as he thought. I believed what he said and I hoped he would be successful. Steve Ritchie told me he thought Jack could start his own pin company long before JJP was announced. I'm disappointed they've pretty much abandoned the operator market due to pricing, but I understand why it happened. They're making amazing games, but it's going to tough for them (and everyone else but Stern) if (when) a recession happens.

You are proving all my points right down the line of why JJP games plummet on the used market. I was down voted at saying how heavy they are and all the issues with wide bodies. If JJP would only really listen to what we are saying here and change direction, they could become a true competitor in the market place. I know some distributors are constantly telling them they need to bring down prices and improve quality, even if it means making games with a few less mechs in them. But mechs and coils are not the issue here, they don’t cost that much, it has been JJPs bloated irresponsible operational spending habits and poor IPs.

JJP games are in fact an “operator’s worst nightmare”, but they are also a home owner’s worst nightmare too! Not trying to put down JJP, rather tell it like it really is. JJP fanboys cannot stand to hear the truth, but they all know how difficult they are to maintain and so does JJP. This is exactly why WW is so stripped down compared to the other offerings.

Until JJP wakes up and brings pricing down and realizes that their 3 tier system is just like their competitors (Stern), except they use different naming nomenclature is the only real difference. Sure WW has a few more coils, but coils only cost a few dollars each. Mushy flippers, ramps and habit trail issues (the ball settling in the middle of a habit trail and not moving), mechs that don’t work properly, etc. I had to take the Quantum theater completely apart and rig a way to keep the optos in place, so it would function for example. Most owners have to do this too. On WOZ, so many issues too numerous to detail here. POTC manufacturing was stopped because of all the mechanical issues. It was breaking JJP to do all of the after market support on them. Cannot see JJP making another run, unless all the issues POTC has, received reworked engineering made to last.

Stern has their issues too, but for the most part, they just work and keep on working, is what all my operator friends tell me. Stern’s distributor network is vast and well stocked with parts for support. JJP can turn this all around with new centralized direction, much lower pricing and smarter more lean operating budgets like Stern has. That way, JJP won’t have to add a bloated operational tax of $2,000.00 to $3,500.00 additional pricing (compared to similar Stern 3 tier offerings) on each machine to cover those costs. They aren’t adding $2k because the actual BOM is so much greater, it’s the bloated operation budget losses, we are paying for when we buy one of their machines.

All reasons why JJP machines go down in value on the secondary market, as being discussed in this thread.

No I watched it and I recall the discussions from the time. You're also talking about statements made before reality hit. That video was from Nov 2011 - they were nearly a year and half from actual production shipping and they only had a whitewood at that point. Jack even says at that point he didn't even have an idea what his BOM was. He was still in his 'make the best game possible, no limits' phase where the sky was the limit. He was trying to enable his team to just make the best thing possible and had a "if you build it, they will come..." mindset. He knew from his route experience that high prices don't deter Ops if the earnings are there. They still had their ticket redemption effort in front of them, etc.

Look, I'm not saying Jack didn't want the Operators or didn't think WoZ was for them -- but what I'm saying is they didn't put the Ops first and since have exaggerated that difference with their product strategy. He had this vision of a Cadillac game that Stern was going AWAY from at an accelerated pace. He felt there was a market from the loaded games.. and he proved it and changed the way everyone markets pinball. And in doing so, they focused more and more on that Trophy Game as the centerpiece of the JJP brand identity. That was reflected in their products released from Ruby Red all the way until the Wonka launch.

With Wonka we saw a change in the messaging and focus... an attempt at making statements that this game is BUILT to be a coin eater, reliable on site, focus on 'fun', etc. I don't think we have enough reference points yet to see just how far those changes have really gone into the design principles governing JJP choices.

It's one thing to SAY something - It's another thing to support it with your actions and sacrifice something to stay true to that. JJP wanted to build Cadillac games and since the reality of what WOZ really would take... has been whale hunting ever since. Now we have Lawlor not just building games, but driving the bus... it will be interesting to see if the focus changes they communicated with Wonka continue in earnest.

It's my belief (interpretation, opinion, postulation...) that the new price point for Wonka and rotation away from what was POTC is not driven by wanting to make the games more operator focused -- but changes the management pushed to make to improve the viability of the product period. Route friendly comes as a benefit of doing so -- but they still aimed to sell CEs, LEs, etc.

If we carry forward my postulation that POTC was killed because it had unacceptable margins... Wonka is the 'solution' to that. A game with better forecasted demand and better margins due to simplification and BOM. Bring out a new lower price point to improve your product's reach and focus on ensuring minimun margins in your build.

But Lawlor did specifically call out making the game more location friendly... I think we need to see the next titles to see where they are really heading. I think we'll see more like Wonka... a cost conscious standard, and luxury targeted LE/CEs. But I hope they are learning how their moves are received and we see even more change.

I just hope they can trim 5-10lbs off the next game. That is what is what is really killing sales.

I can see why operators wouldn't like JJP games....they are far more complicated than most Sterns thus are more prone to issues. I've owned all the JJP games, and they all required tweaking quite a bit (especially WOZ), although they have all been very reliable for me. I can see why putting a stern pro on location for a little over $5K makes perfect sense..tough to make any money on a game thats 50% more unless u hit a home run like POTC.

You should write Jack’s/JJPs biography, you write with such devoted fervor...lol.

“Jack even says at that point he didn't even have an idea what his BOM was.” This is the core issue I’m talking about. If you have no idea what your BOM is all about, you don’t have an idea what any budgets are about operations wise either, which causes all kinds of domino effects system wide. It is this reckless abandon to business fundamentals that has harmed JJP over the years and caused such high MSRP pricing (It’s not the actual BOM that apologist like to point to causing such high MSRP, because we all know the BOM is not that high to make a profit...it’s because someone has to pay for all the blunders...yes, it’s us the consumer). This principle is at the core of the end result of why resale values fall. The market factors this in naturally. If you try to make a Mercedes, but in reality it is a Delorean...well you know the rest of the story. They went out of business...

More grabbing at straws. Its already been shown that JJP games don’t keep falling. Second... you already outlined your justifications and never mentioned this until now..l so that’s changing your story. Three... you are apparently completely oblivious that this hobby will throw money at any company regardless of the viability (or even complete lack of) of their business plan.

Name a price and product strategy that can never work? Sure..take my money (jpop)
Put out a prototype and have no story or credibility to actually produce games? Take our money! (Jpop)
Pay a premium to Buy a game from a completely bankrupt company? Take our money! (Hwp, jpop)
Promise to deliver unicorns and rainbows? We are ready to believe! (Deeproot)
Promise to deliver products everyone knows are illegal copies and could be shutdown or blocked? I don’t care..l take our money!
Promise to deliver products with zero track record or even know who the people are? Shut up and take our money! (Book deals, countless mods)
The majority of the games in the market are from games that are no longer in business

Every pinball startup has come to market without any form of confidence in their long term viability. Even stern was operating with the fear of shutting down. The speculation on rarity has actually driven most of those games up in value... not down.

TLDR - this hobby has shown over and over it doesn’t care one bit about company longevity as long as they get what they want now.

Throwing you gold nuggets...no grabbing needed, lol. All from JW University.

Jack’s latest interview about moving to Chicago because they outgrew their NJ building is the biggest load of crock ever. Everyone sees through that. No way that is the reason or even true. Like Kaneda said, he’s lying and not telling us the real reasons we all know, which is to save the company. This kind of stuff sure doesn’t help resale prices on JJP machines.

JJP is now dead man walking.

Coronavirus freaks and recession will doom them

There is no recession it just feels that way as the market drops 1000 points a day

Did Pinside censor Icemans thread from yesterday and take it down?

Perfect.
-Kyros