Jjp doesn't do pros... heck even the standard offers more than sterns premium and the le are about the same price also. Also have you seen all the issues with stern pins lately? They all lose about the same percentage wise from my experience and the stern pros I have bought were actually a bigger hit for me. Jjp Potc was notorious for issues and look where they have went on price?. Even used wonka le are still getting 8500-8900 which is awesome considering its 9500 nib. . I also much perfer jjp pins and have had to do less fixes on them than any other and they are so great in the code department for home use. I like the stern pins also but they really need to stop being cheap and stop releasing them with bare minimum code. They also need to test things better bc stranger things had so man issues out of the box and no one wants to tear a brand new game apart to fix it.
Overall we are super lucky we can recoup what we do and its a huge reason why the hobby is so strong and popular at the moment. What other hobby can you get 75 percent of cost back after playing it for months/years and in some cases you can make money if you buy smart huo. I have made thousands selling my used jjp pins and thats not including potc
In the end many factors play into where the used price is but overall most lose between 400-1750 depending on the model.

Interesting viewpoint. However, in reality:

Stern Pro $5500 equals a JJP Standard $7500
Stern Pre $7500 equals a JJP LE $9500 (I know the name LE is used by JJP, but you and I know, 5,000 of anything in pinball is not really limited)
Stern LE $9000 equals a JJP CE $12500 (both machines are truly limited to 500 units that’s it and is their top of the line offering.)

People may say one has more than the other, but buyers don’t associate bullet points with fun. Bullet points do not keep resale values high, fun gaming experience does. That’s why a Stern Pro with less, but has a top tier IP, will always sell better than an equivalent JJP standard even though some think it has more. I would argue that WW, mech wise is about the same as Jurassic Park Pro feature wise. One example: WW has 2 ramps. JP2 has 4 ramps.

JJP machines are priced $2k too high against their competition. WW is pretty slim in mechs, compared to DI for example. JJP is beginning to see the light, but price is still the major issue.

JJP doesn't do Pros. Comparing a stripped out bare Stern pro to a JJP Standard is idiotic. If you're going to be that ridiculous, why not compare JJP Standard to Stern home pins?

Stern Pre $7,500 = JJP Standard $7,500.
Stern LE $9,000 = JJP LE $9,500
Stern SLE $15,000 = JJP CE $12,500

THAT is the correct comparison chart.

How is this correct??? That is not comparing apples to apples and is idiotic. Reread post above.

Some try to rationalize that JJP doesn’t do Pros, but their standard offering is indeed in the Pro position and WW does not offer that much more than JP2. Do the bullet points if you think otherwise. They’re pretty equal. And certainly art wise there is zero comparison between WW standard and JP2 Pro. JP2 has vastly superior Pro art package over WW standard art package.

Stern SLE comparing is really idiotic, as those have only been made twice in the whole history of Stern. Batman SLE limited to 80, not 500 like JJP CEs. Or Elvira limited to 50. You’re up in the night with that false notion. JJP CEs are the most overpriced machines on the market period. Only Beatles Diamonds were more ridiculously priced and Elvira SLE (Batman SLE have increased in value many times original price - no JJP CE compares at all to these and do not hold used market value, except maybe POTC CE).

You're severely out of touch or just trolling.

Just because JJP doesn't OFFER a completely stripped out model of their machines doesn't mean you should compare a Stern Pro to a JJP Standard. A JJP Standard is feature-wise much closer to (and still above) a Stern Premium.

Here's a quick comparison I did. Stern Pro is superior to a JJP Standard in 0% of the categories, losing most of them by 50-100% less of that item category on the BOM. I did this from memory, but it's pretty close and the POINT is clear. Your comparison is moronic. You don't have a leg to stand on, except for something subjective like "I like it better" which is the only point you can't be challenged on. But if that's your criteria, just admit it and stop pressing a point that has no basis in reality.

Was hoping you’d take the time to compare (fun discussion - thanks!). No used JJP buyer cares about those bullet points. Reread what I said about the 2 points. It appears you’re JJP bias is not allowing you to fully comprehend.

But we are discussing resale value and why JJP machines all plummet in value. There are differences for sure, but my point is the used buying public doesn’t care one has 24 coils and the other half. They look at gaming experience. Just like Apple phones don’t have the big specs of an android phone, but user experience is considered superior by many, so on the used market Iphones hold value, while double or triple spec points on Androids plummet in value on the used market.

Some of your chart is subjective and you know it. Come on, coil stops? I’ve got over a 1,000 plays on my JP2 with no coil stop issues for example and the cabinet is just as heavy duty. LCD is a non issue. 2nd screen is almost useless on WW, just like it is on Batman. Sculpts, that is laughable, as the ompa lompa breaks off on air ball hits. Spinning gobbstopper sculp? Lol! Full RGB lighting is very confusing to most players and harms JJP machines than helps. Players don’t know what to shoot. Could go on and on with the holes in your chart. Lol.

Quite accusing of trolling, as we are discussing used pricing issues here and I’ve stayed on topic. Moronic is the point of much of your posts. It is your life and you feel threatened by the truth being presented here. To that, don’t feel bad, keep on posting. Sometimes you make some good points I enjoy reading.

Absolutes are almost never true, and neither is this ridiculous statement of yours. Period. But such a crazy statment disconnected from reality is not surprising looking at your pinside pinball machine sales history. ZERO listed. ZERO sold. Apparently you are drawing on a depth of non-firsthand and fantasy knowledge. Your completely out of touch opinions about resale values all make sense now.

Check out my sales history. I've listed 40 on pinside, many of which were sold here. I've probably bought and sold well over 100 pins from all eras combining on pinside and off sales. Here's an example or two: We sold jjPotC for $3000 more than we bought it for new. People that bought jjPotC CEs are selling them used for about $6000-$8000 more than they paid. That's nothing to sneeze at. I've never had a pinball machine depreciate as fast as Stern Munsters. We sold it in its first month and ate $600. Ask the Stern Beatles Diamond buyers about their depreciation. It's around 50%. JJP has some pins that are better than others, but only Hobbit is a resale dud. Most JJP are about in the middle of the resale road compared to Stern Premiums. Your theory simply is wrong.

Most owners seem to think/boast the “it will never be made again bs”

Reality is that all JJP games are fair game to be remade and JJPPOTC has good chance of seeing another run.

I still firmly believe another jjPotC run will happen sometime after jjGnR with YBR pricing. There's just too much money on the table.

Nope, not making the mistake of putting that history in there for you to use as a battering ram! Lol You’re taking issues with the title of this thread. Why do JJP NIB depreciate faster than the rest? That seems to mean they all have that issue (except for the POTC machines which are truly limited - which I’ve already acknowledged), go down in value. Lol

Stop reaching so hard. I said Beatles machines were a huge blunder by Stern. Munsters is a frustration for sure, because Stern really cheated buyers on the lack of code so far. So we are agreeing on that. Hold your chin up and be calm, this is just a discussion of viewpoints. Not going to compare my sales history with yours, as you want a “my dog is bigger than your dog” discussion. Stay on the topic of this thread and stop with the nonsense and insults. Is this a trend of you full time posters on Pinside, to denigrate others to prop up your own viewpoints??? Growing up might be in order for you.

It is obvious to all minus any current owners or those that paid 12.5k and don’t like the idea of a second run with better QC taking their resell options down to 8k overnight.

If Jack re-runs jjPotC, it will be for YBR money, which is $11,500 for an LE, and he'll sell 500 or more no problem. That will keep existing LE pricing in that ballpark - they're not going down to $8k.

You can't say ALL and then EXCEPT - once you say "EXCEPT" it's AUTOMATICALLY not "ALL." I'm done. You're living in a different reality with no expertise and lots of opinions that make no sense.

You’re dreaming about selling out of new POTC, unless they fix the myriad of issues they currently have. You might read the owners threads to find out. Loaded with nightmare problems. That doesn’t usually indicate a sell out of new machines will happen. Rarity means sell out and higher prices. Hope you get that much...

Is put down the best defense you always return to? Very sad my friend, very sad and so shallow. Let’s keep discussing as I do enjoy some of your points.

Rarity evaporates with another run.

The next batch will be better QC for less NIB. From what I am told it also will be less than YBR prices.

Maybe not 8k, but sub 9 for sure

We'll see where the pricing falls, but we are in agreement that we both believe another jjPotC run will happen in the future.

Nah, I sell games just like anyone else, advertise on pinside, word of mouth, nothing to do with “being in the business”. Timing helps, but in general I don’t think price drops are specific to one manufacturer. Some titles go down more than others, but stern pros percentage wise and even in terms of nominal dollars, do tend to fall pretty significantly and almost never recover.

A Stern premium is nearly equivalent in price to a JJP standard. Stern LE’s are similar in price to JJP LE’s. Stern signature editions and JJP Collector editions are in their own bucket. Compare the models that are in the same price range.

JJP has never lowered their prices. If they did rerun Pirates it wouldn’t cost less then what it was announced at over 2 years ago. With that being said I still think Pirates is done as JJP seems to want to focus on putting out 2 games a year with slightly less features (like Wonka).

Maybe, reality will set in at some point, kind of stupid where prices are. Jjpotc is not better than two stern pros like jp and dp. Much rather have those two for $10k than a jjpotc at $12k, and have money left over.

Add $300 to the JJPs for shipping. Wonka has removed mechs for the standard, Stern Pros have removed mechs. Pro to Standard is the correct comparison.

Pretty sure we all see through the real reason for starting this thread.
I honestly have zero interest in JJPPOTC at anything over wonka std prices; hence why I did not buy one when they were readily available.
You are delusional and obviously pumping, but to each their own. Your excuses and reasons fro why they will never build it again are silly.

If there is money to be made, then it will get built.

Even if they priced at YBR prices, your precious commodity will tank. Why would anyone buy your mutliple transported used game for more than a NIB delivered to them using current build QC and parts. Not even sure what could possibly be stripped. They pulled everything they could from the prototypes to make the build and still maintain the vision. From what I have heard, it may be different when they make it but was told to expect improvements not striped back.

I will take my downvotes from all the owner pumpers. They are like badges of honor for telling the truth

Wonka SE was after Pirates and has significantly less in it compared to past JJP SE's. Starting with Wonka it seems like the new direction at JJP is to release slightly less feature packed games at lower prices (at least for SE's) to be more competitive.

Why did you come here to insult Pirates owners? Seems like you are just bitter that Pirates owners not only enjoy their games, but also that it's gone up in value.

"Truth" lol.

Personal take on Op's question -

a) Low # of titles and pricey to begin with
b) Limited audience - w fewer titles, the pool of interested buyers is also smaller. WOZ was (is) their only true cornerstone pin, hence the many iterations, zero "LE" value (YBR was more costly and had fewer components).
c) POTC can't even factor, as there was mild interest until it vanished. Even then, it was VE'd after being displayed.
d) "Packed" and "best ever built" phrases, comparisons have been run the course, imho. It's amazing how the first true outbreak/ rage over the playfield quality actually started w JJP, but seems to be a Stern thing now. Simply because they produce exponentially more units. Amazing how that whole thing sort of vanished w washers.

I think it is a major buyers market on second-hand machines period, as there are just so many out there.

I'm still always interested in the "new/ shiney", but honestly, I still get an amazing pin experience w my XMENLE Magneto, and BSD, both substantially less $$$ than anything currently out there.

Love my WOZECLE and props to the staff @ JJP, but just is what it is (my most overused phrase).

Hey instead of reading thread titles and just scanning owner threads as your definitive reference point... maybe you should respect people who actually own and sell the games. Crazy thought....

Out of box issues are not things that haunt a pin forever. Instead of relying on “oh look at all these problems” — try building some comprehension of what is actually happening with those games. Your perceptions about these games... both in sales and ownership are pathetically wrong.

The only JJP games anyone needs to avoid or worry about value wise are hobbit and non-2.0 wow machines. The rest have already found their settling points... not wonka... but that’s because there hasn’t been much out there.

No it didn’t vanish... it’s more about “squeaky wheel”. You have a very loud small group beating the drum and echoing anything they can to try to magnify the scope and severity of things. Once JJP finally conceded and the majority of those impacted get their resolution... the fuel for the fire dries up... and when the cheerleaders get their resolution... they tend to put down the drumsticks.

It doesn’t matter if its Stern, JJP, or CGC.... that is the lifecycle of “manufacturing problems” on pinside. Stern failing decals, stern splitting cabinets, CGC miserable inserts, ghosting, JJP lightboards, pooling, etc... the noise level is never really an indicator of severity and extinction status.

The outcomes are not always what people wanted... but once the final outcome (like pfs shipping) is commonplace... the drama-talk fades to zero. Then we just see all the people trying to sell unpopulated pfs...

No, its not. Because Stern Pros today are practically like home editions and JJP Standards - BOM and features wise - are usually better than Stern Premiums.

Funny as crap!!! Thanks for my laugh of the day..

lol, not even close.

The comparison is JJP standard vs Stern premium and JJP LE vs Stern LE as those games are around the same price.

I thought they quit making them early because they were losing money at the price point? Was it quality issues and the costs to fix them? I'm still confused by YBR cost so much more than the older ones.

This is something we will never know

I can't quite align w that....did JJP ever send a populated pf to any of the POTC owners where the good vs bad issue was pretty obvious ( I truly don't know as I abandoned those topics)? This pin is a unique case, for sure, as it's rarity takes priority over any qc issues.

Agree that all pins have problems, but if the buying audience is small to start, then they will want the game at a lower price knowing it's going to come w baggage ( and maybe an unpopulated pf).

That was my only point....

I agree they're similar prices, but you need to compare similar features. The JJP Standard set by Wonka is similar to Stern Pros, JJP LEs compare to Premiums feature wise. Pros and Standards lack mechs and gameplay items.

Yet a JJP standard such as Wonka SE has more features in it then Stern premiums.

Not that I know of.. but like I said "The outcomes are not always what people wanted... but once the final outcome (like pfs shipping) is commonplace... the drama-talk fades to zero." -- Basically people make a ton of noise while waiting for resolution or fighting for one.. and once the resolution is out there, things simmer down to what they really are.. the net result. This cycle repeats itself everytime a new issue of some sort appears. I don't agree with how JJP handled this latest issue - especially with the blame game early on. But your comment about 'number of units' is why I countered. I don't think it has to do with the overall number of shipping units - it has to do more with where things are in terms of people having a resolution and 'who' is in the mix when we are talking about pinside noise levels.

I mean when we look at it objectively.. I think the biggest difference was 'time to resolution' and percentage affected. Stern had the issue in smaller amounts well before JJP, but the # of impacted units seemed small and spread out. JJP POTC brought the issue to the front given the severity and that such a high percentage of units were impacted. When it hit JP2 pros hard... stern was quick to adjust production so they weren't shipping a ton of these bad PFs. While JJP was putzing around with bandaids and denials. Stern's quick action compartmentalized the issue.. while JJP had a cloud of uncertainty over them for a long time. Neither outcome was great for those impacted - but I think Stern weathered the storm better (relative) due to their quick production changes that were obvious for people to see and track.

That's funny

Wua? You guys seem to be so hung up on both having 3 tiers and therefore they must match up or something.

Wonka was JJP's attempt at driving prices down... and it still had a second screen, camera, 3 ramps, motorized mech, subway, a ton of magnet effects, and FOUR flippers flippers. It only has one PF mech less than the LEs and above.

Meanwhile we look at Stranger Things Pro and the big deal is it has a drop target bank and a moving ramp. Take away Elwin's games and look at Stern Pros..

You don't see JJP using target plates to cut down on the number of switches... or using saucers exclusively instead of scoops and subways... and other gimmics on their standards.

JJP's vision was to build games targeted at the high end collectors... there is no shame in the reality that they aimed HIGH while Stern was aiming lower. It's the whole premise why Jack started the company...

There are more features and actual 3D molds versus flat plastics with a ton of exposed screw heads on a Wonka SE compared to your typical Stern premium.

You’re either ignorant or trolling. One is fixable, so hopefully you can get your learning on and reason more effectively moving forward. Or, troll away!

This I can agree with...maybe not # of units, but rather timing. Regardless, it didn't help ...that was a tough stretch for me on the pinball journey...

JJP quit making jjPotC prematurely because of really bad timing.

JJP was HAMMERED everywhere for taking out the multi-disc wheel and trunk open/close functionality after promoting it for like 6 months, and not adjusting the price to compensate. LOTS of negative posting, nonstop. The machines trickled out and buzz started to build about the game being a feature-packed masterpiece, but it wasn't strong enough fast enough to overcome the (lagging reality) negative hype leftover from the discgate/trunkgate, which was going strong for months after release since so few people complaining had actually PLAYED the revised game. So Jack threw in the towel RIGHT AS enough people were finally getting hands on to realize how great it was and wanted to buy one or reinstate cancelled preorders.

It was just terrifically bad timing. It's potentially JJP's 2nd best selling pin once they start making more.

Interesting. I was vaguely aware of those changes, but as I had no interest in the theme I didn't pay much attention to it.

I've played it a number of times, and while it's not the worst game out there, it really didn't appeal to me. Yes, it has a lot of stuff, but so did WoZ, which also didn't really do much for me. I can't really put my finger on it. Clunky is the first word that comes to mind, but that could be said for many games until you get 'good' at them. It's more than that. It felt like 'something new' that just didn't quite work yet. What is interesting is Dialed In gameplay grabbed me immediately even though initially the theme kind of turned me off. I imagine it's probably because it's a Lawler game and I tend to really like his games (note that I didn't know it was a Lawler game until after I had played i). I haven't had a chance to try Wonka yet, but it's another theme that I'm just kind of meh on.

Did any title depreciate faster than Stern Munsters LE/Pre? Asking for a friend......

In 30 years, that machine will be 31 years old. You mark my words.

I didn't care at all about the missing spinning disk or trunk lid

My lack of interest was entirely based on the extremely high price. It wasn't until I played the game that I became interested.

And it wasn't until production ceased that I acted to buy one. Had Jack not thrown in the towel, I'd be happily waiting for a used game and would not have bought one NIB.

The game was good which created interest, but I believe the immediate increased demand was because production stopped. It's their only true limited edition game. For now.