JJP just hasn't made a game I care to own yet. It's a shame because they build some of the nicest machines.

Woz, Wonka, and DI are themes I don't care to own.

Hobbit layout was a letdown.

POTC lacks assests and after you pick a character feels like you are playing a generic pirates game aka TWD

These are just my opinions and here is for hoping GnR knocks it out of the park.

Location, build dates, condition, etc can affect resale value. For example one game sold lower in one area can go higher in another.

Read your JJP reviews. You have either never played them, have some lame as bias against them, or they touched you inappropriately. Repetitive AND random code? Clunky. Unbalanced code? lol

It would drop soon, with newer titles coming in.

Too much variety out there for NIB. Lets see whats coming up next in the next few months is now the norm. Ah I'll just dump what I bought NIB, take a hit, and pick up the next new bling.

Because they are the Mercedes Benz/Land Rover of pinball. Look like a million bucks with a whole bunch of gee wiz shit but at the end of the day are big turd just like everything else if not bigger!

If I had to guess, it’s because the price for NIB JJP games is just too high for a lot of people. There aren’t as many people able to buy games at that price point. So when it comes time to sell, there aren’t as many buyers in the secondary market either.

There’s also the feeling that you need a decent deal to buy used vs new. And I believe that amount changes based on what you can afford.

For people that have $5k to spend on a game, maybe $500 in their pocket is more beneficial to their financial situation than $1000 is to someone in the market for a $10k game.

always works that way.

I think another thing that hurts JJP resale is warranty coverage. I've never had an issue with Stern replacing a defective part even if I was the 2nd or 3rd owner years down the line, whereas you hear stories about people shelling out $$$ for light boards on games like WOZ and getting stuck paying for parts if they aren't the original owner of JJP games. I think most people with lots of disposable income would rather just buy NIB than pay $1K less for a HUO.

JJP...

I've read they're expensive, late AF to ship, perceived as unreliable, theme choices are undesirable & employee behavior in the early years burned some bridges.

Who knows if that's an accurate summary?

Perhaps GNR will turn things around?

This is it for me as well. I got a WOZ out of the gate and kept it for 5 years or so, but I own three other Keefer games (TSPP, LOTR WPT) and enjoyed playing all of them more than the WOZ, despite the fact WOZ was the best built, newest, RGB LEDs, LCD screen, etc. It just didn't shoot as well as the others and I didn't care for the music and theme, so I eventually sold it.

Hobbit theme is great but I can't stand the playfield-by-committee design, just an awful shooting game IMHO. DI is pretty darn fun but too many cheaper games that are just as fun. Same with Wonka, that one shoots great but the theme is too meh to consider $7K+. I liked and was thinking of getting a Pirates, then suddenly they were NLA/$10K. Nope.

Hoping GnR steps things up. Give me JJP quality with Elwin-level rules and design

I expect depreciation when buying new. How do the JJP's LE's relate to Stern's LE's ? They probably go down about the same. ( I wouldn't know because I only buy Stern Pro's except SMVE.) However this pales in comparison to my 401K drops this week. At least with pinball it's something I can put my hands on and enjoy.

Cheers.

Yeah if you're a pinhead, you can "get it." The casual person, no. Shouldn't have to explain a theme, IMO. Would have been received and thought of much differently if they gave it some sort of "edge." But they didn't. Can't separate the pin from the theme, sounds, etc. though.

(Yes I owned DI LE too for like 10 days and was done.)

The only one that lost a ton of value is The Hobbit, and in my opinion it's because it's simply not a good game. There isn't much to shoot, there isn't much on the playfield, I still don't get how they allowed that one to be released.

I'm still waiting for my Whoa Nellie to go up in value. Come on, baby!

The price difference between HUO and NIB has to be big enough for someone to be worth giving up the NIB experience. And if NIB pricing is too high for me, then I'm going to wait until prices drop enough to be in my price range and that is not going to be a couple of hundred dollars.

There was one on Marketplace in NY for $6k last week...may even still be there.

The games start at what....8K....starting price....

And they depreciate more than cheaper games. Holy shit. Stop the presses!!!!!

GNR might turn it around for them?

With every new release of every game from any manufacturer its gonna cause more and more stress on the secondary market.

Most people are moving out games to get the shiny new object. It's just supply and demand.

The truth is that we are all overpaying for these NIB games. The companies can't sell enough to spread out the fixed overhead to get the cost down. Especially JJP due to less overall sales.

It's just becoming a tough cycle. Now throw in a massive stock market downturn and potential recession?

As much as it’d be the first game of theirs I’d be into, I hope they don’t. The original gnr is great, and would likely play better. Yea, sure it could be improved on code, but gnr shoots awesome for a WB. I’d rather they focus on something that hasn’t been done before. I am all for their take on a music pin tho!

7.5k now, at least Wonka was.

Plus shipping, at least shipping its included with Stern. Stern Pro for $5500 shipped vs Wonka standard for $7800 shipped is a no brainer for me. I only have 2 Sterns in my lineup but they make great products.

The only JJP I've liked is WoZ, mainly for theme, rules are alright. I sold my NIB Wonka after 3 weeks(terrible game) luckily for minimal loss as the demand was still high. Maintenance on both has been worse than the 6 NIB Sterns I've owned before them. Unfortunately Toy Story is my grail theme and JJP has the license, hopefully it's not like Wonka.

I read this and agree and also disagree. I really like Willy Wonka, one of my favorite movies!! I am very tired of the Jurassic Park movies, they have been around for decades.

When I have played Wonks, I was expecting Hobbit theming with Pats design. It missed IMOP. I played JP with no expectation and was amazed. At the barcade I will play JP all day, WONKA not so much.

I can’t explain why I like JP more, but it is definitely not because of the title.

Wonka is too generic, nothing exciting or new. The code feels like a jumble.

I made money on a Woz , and got offered
$6K more than I paid for a Pirates CE Hobbit , DI & YBR I will
Loose some money so now I’m even

The more expensive the toys
Most likely the more depreciation
It’s only money

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It's all about the same from my experience buying nib I lose about the same percentage on sterns and jjp. Just need to follow the market closely and see what the pins are doing and know when to get out if the pin is not a keeper. Overall I've did very well with jjp pins and buying huo with mods has made me some good money . I love jjp pins and dile and wonka le are very long term keepers... I'd keep them all if I had room but unfortunately if I want something new I have to make tough decisions .

It's all over the place I know of a few le that have sold for 7700 over the past month and some that were 7200. Jjp announced they are not gonna be making any more in the near future so as more people start to love it and want to own it I suppose it cld creep up some. Its a excellent super loaded pin and I think down the road many people cld want one long term. Also they were 9 k and under nib.. I got mine for 8700 I believe but it doesn't matter bc it's a keeper as is wonka...such great games .

I think its important to note the observation about these prices is not as much about games depreciating MORE... but its more about the deprecation CURVE for these titles.

They lose a lot of money 'fast' or 'faster' than other titles... but unsaid here in this discussion is that they level off and then hold value well.

I think this more indicative of the price of the games new vs the pricing of other available titles.

Once the games drop to the 6-7k price band shared with many other titles... they bottom out and don't drop lower typically.

So the high NIB price is willing to be paid by some... but not everyone. So once the games dip into a more 'accepted' price range.. they stop depreciating at the same rate as before.

So my .02c to the discussion is they drop in price 'more' early because of the pricing vs other similar offers... plus the availability generally exceeds the demand for games at those higher prices. So the bulls run out and pay the full NIB prices.... and then have to take their losses to sell at a price a wider audience is willing to pay.

Most generation of titles would depreciate and then settle into a price bracket of similar games..

JJP is doing similar from my observations... it's just the initial price is high.. but the band they settle into is high too.

Pre 2010 sterns would kind of bottom out at about 2800-3000.. mid2010 sterns would tend to bottom out at about 4000.. JJP seemed to settle in the low to mid 6000s.

If you paid 8500 for dialed in, and sold it for 7300 or so.. it's a big raw number drop, but not really when you look percentage wise. The bigger hit comes the more you pay up for LE, CE, etc. And that's because for the most part much of the 'exclusivity' just doesn't really resonate once the FOMO wears off. Used market buyers aren't as eager as the NIB buyers.

All the reasons below might sum up why resale is so low on JJP machines:

1. They are the most overpriced machines on the market, (except Stern Beatles, Stern Elvira) JJP MSRP is way too high to the end buyer. Come on WOZ jumping from $6.5k to $11.5k with monkey mech removed? Apologist say they couldn’t make any money at those prices. JJP could not make money not because of low pricing of WOZ, but because of out of control company spending, by trying to maintain 2 separate operations far apart. Plus tons of after sales support issues eating up profits.

2. Like the game or not, Stern just made SW HE for a street price of $3,995.00. That is almost half the price of a JJP standard edition. Many buyers will not go for a $7.5k JJP Standard over a SW HE sold for $3.9k in general, although some pinheads don’t like SW. JJP pricing has been out of whack since WOZ was raised so high. WOZ was killing it when properly priced. Let’s face it, we the consumer of JJP products are paying for very poor spending habits and bloated budgets trying to run a split operation hundreds of miles a part. Full color printed owners Manuel’s? With tons of pages that were outdated the minute the next code release happened? 1 small example of bloated pricing.

2. JJP game ratings come from a small niche rating them, with rabid owners giving them all 9s. While Stern has a rabid hating anti fan base giving very low ratings to almost all their offerings.

3. JJP games have ongoing Maintence issues. People know this and therefore don’t want to buy unless the price is quite low. Support is mostly hard to get issues resolved in a timely fashion, if at all. It is well known you might be on your own fixing all the issues on JJP machines. Ask any operator how hard it is to maintain a JJP machine. Out of order more often than working on locations.

4. Manufacturing quality is some of the lowest in the business. (Remember JJP investors looking at Homepin’s manufacturing and saying how they were very impressed with the quality?)

5. Poor theme choices over and over again. Top rated themes sell for better money on the resale market, more than any other factor. (WOZ is very old and more of a child’s pinball theme, Hobbit is based on the poorly received films and not necessarily the book, quite niche to pinball, DI is not a good theme, POTC has been done before and without any real assets, just a good pirates game, WW is arguably good, but the game itself is more about collecting Wonka bars and not much about the actual movie. GNR has been done before & arguably not a great music band choice, Toy Story is the best of the lot theme wise and maybe a killer theme if done right with lots of mechs.)

6. JJP machines are excessively heavy to move.

All these issues drive prices down on the used market place. If I want to buy a JJP game, just wait and there will be plenty on the market used for heavy discounts. More heavily discounted than any other companies offerings. History has proven that.

Think this move to Chicago area could be the best thing for JJP to get lower pricing back inline and hopefully resolve the issues above so us buyers don’t keep taking it on the chin when trying to resell any JJP pin.

Right someone wanted to sell me SW premium. However I was able to buy a nib SW premium comic for $800 more. Delivered to my door. Not worth me driving and buying an out of warranty game for just $800 savings.

So you roll into the hobby a year ago and now already know the full extent of everyone's support history and what it takes to maintain games? You are so full of it you alone are going to make California fall into the ocean.

Support from JJP is no harder to get than the average. Don't confuse "JJP Didn't give me what I want!" with little or no support. JJP support is very good in many fronts... documentation is excellent, firmware support is awesome, diagnostics abilities are high, they have people you can call, they get back to you with tickets. The generalization that their support is bad or 'hard to get issues resolved' is bunkus. That's just regurgitation bullshit.

Their manufacturing quality is very high. Their QC at times has been up and down, but largely only with early shipments.. which is not uncommon elsewhere too. Their materials are usually very good. They don't skimp on engineering.

And FFS... no one is paying less for WOZ or DI because they weigh 60lbs more..... just like no one is paying more for current sterns because the metal backbox and spike board system reduced unit weights. GTFO of here with these ridiculous assessments. You don't know crap.

There you go again with all your pontificating and unkind remarks toward me and Stern. I respect others viewpoints even when they don’t agree with mine, all decent human beings do too. This is a forum where we discuss our opinions, that’s it. Putting down others shows no class at all. Raise your level of decency, please.

JJP support has always been good to me (ESPECIALLY in the Frank era), whether NIB or second owner. They supported WoZ with free out of warranty boards for like THREE YEARS before going to half price boards, before I bit the bullet and went 2.0 lighting.

Got free protectors and then free cliffies for Dialed In almost a year after it came out.

Got some random Hobbit items as second owner.

Free replacement playfield for jjPotC with pooling issue.

They're at least on par with Stern IMO for after purchase support as a first or (sometimes) second owner.

New art on SW also was a factor.

I respect other opinions - I don't respect complete baseless garbage. Bring some credibility and maybe you'll see a different response to your posts. But the type of non-sense you've been spewing over the last week is not worthy of anything but being called out as non-sense.

If you want your 'opinions' respected - make them worthy of it.

And what did I say anything about Stern? You're showing your own biases there..

I don’t agree with the OPs claim. Deadpool LE can be had for $1000 off retail, many other LEs drop that much if not more. Many recent stern pro models are in the mid-4K range off a retail of $5700-5900. Acdc premium seems to go for low 6s to high 5s off retail of over $7. I bought DI nib at retail, sold for same price, potcle price rose sharply. Woz prices seem to hold up fairly well despite repeated runs. Hobbit has held up well in mid to upper 6s to low 7s off a retail of about $7300. I don’t think you can easily find wonka standard for $6500. I had someone offer me 7300 for my standard. I’m less familiar with AP, but hasn’t Houdini fallen sharply?

I got my hobbit for 8K NIB and could sell it 4 years later for about 7K - that isn't bad at all

My posts do have credibility from what I’ve learned over time and from business acumen. Again, being nasty appears to be your only recourse when confronted with all your JJP myths disappearing before you. It must be really tough for you to accept. Small mindedness.

You are one of the lucky few that knows how to move a JJP high priced used machine. Being in the business, I’m sure you have connections and skills the rest of us don’t share. I’ve been through attempting to get rid of JJP machines at very discounted prices. Buyers have tried to get rid of 2nd hand after me and one still has it on the market over a year later with no buyers in sight. Even with him willing to take a huge loss.

delt31 premise is unfortunately correct, if you just look at the history of JJP games on the resale market. Used market buyers really hammer over the many issues well known about JJP games. Troubled and lesser titles of Stern games have similar issues. Only top tier licenses like, Batman, JP2, SW, DP, Star Trek, GB etc. generally don’t have these issues.

You keep calling me nasty and call me names... but have you noticed I address the points brought up in the post - not simply attack the person. Funny, your posts never seem to do that? Just try to paint the poster as some skewed thing or call them names.

Keep thinking JJP prices are what they are because the games are too heavy... and they have flaws in their 'balance'. That was some real prime shit!

Lol, you take the cake and focus on only one or two things. Certainly weight is minor, but a big deal for the high costs for JJP. I’ve addressed directly the issues we’ve been discussing. Calling out nasty behavior is simply that, not name calling as you presume. I realize, posting here is your life, so I don’t want to make you feel sad. Carry on, just learn to be nice in so doing. This isn’t a grade school yard, grow up my friend. Foul low gutter language is quite unbecoming don’t you think? Raise your level of civility and you’ll sleep much better. Lol.

This. And the fact that they are such a bitch to buy/sell/move that I really have to feel like I'm getting a good deal to do it. Also, before I buy a game I read the owners thread and see all the issues. Every issue I read makes me want an even better deal to balance the headache. Which leads me to not buy it, which equals less demand for used games. So then I fool myself into waiting for the next NIB thinking they might get quality control right...which they don't. Which makes me want to sell these headaches and be done with it...more supply compounding less demand. Vicious cycle!!!! (Btw... This applies to all manufacturers equally)

Pish Posh

And even if they do, what true pinhead cares really? I buy JJP games for all that they offer (which I appreciate). Not for what they resell for.

Oh thank god you are here to show me the way! How have I survived all these decades without the Jim West School of Internet... thank you thank you!! I can't wait for the associate diploma offer from the Jim West passive aggressive clinics. It really feels great after wandering the desert of hopelessness since the 80s... wondering, why do I feel so empty? To now... since you graced us with your acumen... to finally feel whole. What a week!

Now if you could only explain how things like weight are MINOR... yet at the same time a BIG DEAL for high costs at the same time for JJP... yet NO OTHER PINBALLS. Kaythxbye!

Asking for all those TAF sellers who find they aren't getting their weight reduction bonuses vs their TZ brethren.

Lol, very funny and creative! I graduate you from the Jim West School of Pinball with only an associate degree for the time being. More degrees to follow after showing a willingness to learn and grow from the experience. Lol

Look this is what it boils down to (to get back on the subject matter):
Pinball machines either hold or lose value based on 2 things -

1. Intellectual Property value

2. Machine reputation value

If the title has both those things going for it, then it holds value. If it doesn’t, it plummets in value, hence the discussion in this thread. As another poster said, he looks through the owners threads of IPs that interest him and if the machines reputation is good, he’ll consider a purchase on the used market.

If the owners thread is full of problems, which past JJP machines owners threads are full of and ongoing headaches are apparent, he will not buy or take a chance unless the price is real low. Used buyers are going to use that information to beat down sellers, which brings resale value down considerably. JJP resale history has proven this to be true.

Also, having so many old weak IPs that have not maintained good longevity value with the used buying market, prices are always are going to be much lower than say a Star Wars themed very popular IP. Even though a JJP table may have much better populated playfields with many more mechs and toys. The used market will not recognize that as real value, because they can have just as much fun on a used Stern Pro with a top tier IP for half the price. User experience is part of the reputation.

You and I may really like and prefer the software depth of a JJP machine, but most used buyers don’t care. They look only at numbers 1 & 2 written above and a Stern Pro at half price on the used market looks pretty good to them.

With the new consolidated leaner operation now happening and if JJP pricing would come more inline with a Stern pro, premium and LE, by lowering prices $2k to be inline with their competition, along with obtaining top notch IP’s like Stern has, JJP will soar to new heights.