The kind of blow. The flippers are terrible. THe sounds packages tend to be annoying. THe art can be awful too, especially the playfields.

Most of the DE come off as bad imitations of the 90s Williams stuff...Tommy, Crypt, JP, LAH etc. etc. they are all copies of Lawlor games except the clunky flippers, pops, and less refined geometry just make you long for the real thing.

I find even the small things annoying to me...like...why are DE default high scores so ridiculously high? It's not easy to get 700 million or whatever on JP. And a lot of their games, they don't have a real flow to the three ball game...it's just kind of, flail as best you can for the first two balls, and then start multiball on ball 3 when it's set to ready and hope you do well in the multiball. You don't get that addictive feeling of "set it up" for ball three, you just kind of endure the first 2 balls and then go for multiball.

I've gone through a bunch of DE games recently and as much as I want to like them they just don't do it for me. A lot of them just feel like a chore to play.

Strangely enough, the DE games I DO like are their simpler, earlier ones, with less annoying sound, and two flipper layouts that seem to suit the limitations and feel of the mechanics better. Stuff like Time Machine or Robocop are fun games that I never mind having in my collection.

The Sega stuff is a bit different than the DE stuff but I've never really found myself enjoying them much. Independence day is ok. Baywatch is ok. But they just don't live up to the standards, or come close, to what Williams was doing.

The artwork for starters.

Speaker hummmmmm

Great avatar

They also don't "get so much hate," at least not like they did 15 years ago when they were truly viewed as third-rate garbage. Never thought I'd see games like Crypt or JP going for the same amount as many Williams titles.

Rising prices of williams stuff and increased scarcity of old games in general has led to an entire new generation of fans of these games.

Terrible flippers? I haven't seen that, they're stern flippers basically. The art is bad, but there's fun games. I like baywatch, and picked up a maverick a couple weeks ago. The sound and music on maverick is pretty damn amazing, gunshot ricochet when hitting drop targets, and the game over tune of amazing grace is cool. Lyman coded it, and the wizard mode seems tough to obtain for that era of a pin. I guess I'll find out how hard it is soon. Almost done with new rubber and comets, still need to rebuild the mechs though

Fact !! This!!

(Agreed)

Love me some DE! Phantom has the best audio of any 80s pin. It sounds spectacular. And DE pins had stereo 30 years before Stern.

Absolutely love my TFTC. Best camp horror pin and best animations.

Seeking a nice Torpedo Alley, but they can be hard to come by. Awesome, underrated pin. If you don't know now you know.

I operated a Royal Rumble once that I literally never had to pull the glass on. It was a tank and played great.

Torpedo Alley is great.

Laser War, Torpedo Alley, Secret Service, Time Machine, RoboCop, Last Action Hero, Star Wars, Lethal Weapon 3, Jurassic Park, Batman, Checkpoint, Simpsons are all here.

Common "problems" after 30+ years of service are the 9 pin GI connections (easily repaired & upgraded) caps failing on power supply board (which is a problem for all pins) I used quotes as I have had the same problems with other brands yet DE gets crapped on.

All the better for me to pick up "cheap DE pins" if there is such a thing anymore.

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I think much of the hate is historical, some of the DE Titles needed some slight code tweaks.. thankfully, many of them have received this. Mechs are not quite as robust as B+W IMHO. This is less important these days as we baby this era quite a bit anyway.

Some of those mechs are still in use today in new Sterns and I'd argue the flipper mechs are utter tanks.

Compare DE mech pictured to a Stern mech. The DE mech has been modified for use in my Seawitch from scratch.

If you played Seawitch at Pintastic last year, you were playing with DE slingshots, poppers and flippers.

500+ games in 48 hours without a single malfunction.

Edit: Agree on the code tweaks, which ChadH has been doing for the DMD titles along with a few other people.

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As far as EMs go, Chicago Coin games were on average the lowest-budget and the clunkiest of the Big Four. So maybe part of it is heredity. -puh-dump-bump-tshh-

I freaking love me some Data East games, but Williams games of the era just had more soul and were more fun to actually play. Case and point... Data East Jurassic Park of 1993 is a complete ripoff of Whirlwind from 1990 with the only real difference being that the second set of pops was replaced by a giant freaking dinosaur. Seriously... the layouts are almost identical so it should shoot the same right? Take one of the best games (to date... Whirlwind) and add on some goodness. Lets add on a DMD with great animations, multiple modes, one of the best toys in pinball (the dinosaur eats the freaking ball), add in a shaker mode, a trigger start, a 6 freaking ball multiball, upfield kickback, other great toys and sculpts, put (terrible) dinosaur art all over it... JP should knock it out of the park right? Well... JP tried harder on art and it sucks... luck at Newmans fingers. Despite being newer and having STEREO sound it does not sound nearly as good as Whirlwind. Finally, it is not NEARLY as fun to shoot despite having many more modes. It just lacks soul.

With that said both are freaking amazing games and I highly recommend everyone rotate them through their collections if possible. Both are top 5 game picks for first time pin buyers in my opinion, but Whirlwind is more for the pinball afficianado and DE JP more for the casual family man.

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At the pinball convention last weekend Royal Rumble was one of my favorite games to play. It at least made me want to get a DMD game if not a DE one.

I never understood it, always viewed it as "fanboys" whining and complaining. I have owned my MSF, BTTF, and TFTC for years. I would take any of them over a few of the "A list" titles.

Also, what flipper issues? The power suppliers are usually garbage, but they have zero flipper issues.

The power supplies are usually caps failing which are far, far past their rated life.

Again I'm not sure how this is a DE specific issue. Go to Mouser and look up new caps and spec out by rated lifespan. Some are rated for as little as 500 hours with the vast majority under 5000 hours.

Maverick is the only Data East I have owned so far. It's a very solid game. Flippers were fantastic. No automatic multi-ball on ball 3. The 17 drop targets functioned perfectly like a dream. Lyman code. I only had to fiddle with the paddle boat optos once or twice and once I reflowed the tiny circuit boards, they were fine. I would definitely own that machine again. The only annoying thing was the speaker hum....and Mel Gibson on the back glass. I'm open to owning other Data East machines if the price is right. Would love a Tommy.

"Lesser rated" is not necessarily "hated".

I Love Data East games, especially the early ones. They were copying system 11 big time. One interesting thing that I have always been curious about is the cheese eater mech. in Mousin Around is the exact same mech. as the secret hideout mech. in Secret Service but....... Secret Service came out first ??

Stern had legal rights to the "Williams hardware" which is why a good deal of boards will interchange on the early DE platform. The software on the MPU is different for this reason and had to be made from scratch.

Displays, power supply boards, early 50V flipper supply board all interchange perfectly. When I was troubleshooting Space Shuttle I swapped around all three items from Laser War and Secret Service.

Hunted for Secret Service. Finally nabbed one, had a few minor fixes needed. Really enjoyed it!

That said, compared to my Taxi, the "clunkiness" was definitely noticeable. I didn't necessarily enjoy the game any less, but I would have enjoyed it that much more, if that makes sense.

I'm also a fan of cheesy artwork (Torpedo Alley, Secret Service) but not photo art (Twister). But hey, that goes for Spider-Man too!

So long as the DE games are a little less costly, I think they're a great toy. When priced the same as a B/W, that's where the scrutiny comes in. At least for me.

Yes, DE/Sega are a bit clunky. Particularly the pop bumpers, which are weird and just irritating on nearly every such game I've played. Why do they feel like they're putting SO much effort into pulling the pop ring down, yet move the ball so weakly?

That said, there were a few DE games that I went back to every time I encountered them years ago, chief among them being LAH, LW3, and Hook, and despite their many flaws, I do hold a nostalgic love for them. Sound and rules do feel a little primitive - although flashing GI in tune with the music was pretty clever in my opinion. But there are a few moments where all the sound and dot design comes together in perfect harmony. Play these back in your head and tell me they aren't just a slight bit iconic:

- Bonus count on LAH, feeding into lit multiball on ball 3... "Jack Slater can't LOSE!" ... and then starting it
- "You can FLY! You can FIGHT! You can--" ROOSTER CROWING
- *TCHK-TCHK* "Loaded...." "GRAB THE GUN AND FIRE!"

The de flippers are plenty reliable and strong (ask anybody who had replaced all 3 center drop targets on a Simpsons) but they have a crummy, clunky feel that doesn’t complement their lawlor ripoff layouts.

The early ones without EOS switches are really bad. I think that changed around late 1990? Gary listened to the people!

Nah, some guys on Pinside shat on Data East given any opportunity.

The masses have been shitting on DE games since the Rgp days so it’s really nothing new. Like I said before, the rep of DE games has actually improved - a lot! - during the Pinside era.

Are Bally flippers too strong? Had to replace all the drops on my Centaur, broke every single one except the Queens chamber.

The stuff is 30+ years old, its going to break.

I love underrated B and C pins - have had quite a few DE and Sega games over the years. Completely agree with the "Alphanumeric DE has more charm than the DMD era" argument but it's mostly because they had original themes in that era before they sold out and went all licensed. That being said, I think Sega games are super underrated as a lot of them shoot well, are relatively deep and still had some cool toys/mechs on them even when the pinball era was dying. I mean, Goldeneye has a freakin' launch ramp into a satellite dish.

I didn’t say they were too strong. I said they were plenty strong.

LW3 is truly the best DE game- so cheesy, such a great multiball start, everything about it is in the "so bad it's good category"

Agree with the cool toys/mechs.

LAH had a freaking moving crane on it that brought the ball from one side of the playfield to the other. They pioneered toilets in pinball with South Park. The jump rampe to the satellite dish in goldeneye is a God tier toy that ranks as a moment in pinball equal to the "Showtime!" lightshow from Addams Family. The dinosaur eats the freaking ball in Jurassic Park. Unfortunately they just didn't play as well. More fun to watch while others played, but not as fun.

I will say the closest feeling game to a Bally/Williams game that they made was (to me) Torpedo Alley. If you like system 11s I'd highly recommend rotating one through. Great sound, great humor, great gameplay, legendary translite. If there were cartoon animals in a submarine on the translite I would have thought it was a Bally/Williams system 11 game.

Robocop bridge jump so iconic it was reused by Stern complete with sound effect on Jurrasic Park home pin.

Calling on some pinball artist to do a Python esque "Torpedo Alley" translite. That would be sick.

Had one I got in a package deal for a few days. Great but simple game. That bridge jump is also an essentially "free" toy. But ugh that playfield art. I knew kids back in high school that could have done better than this. Check out the amazing theme integration here.

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The best pinballs are magic.

Some kind of combination of the theme, the sound, the graphics, the lighting, the display, the toys, the mechanics, the shots, the rules...

In the top tier of the pinball world, those elements add up to something better than the sum of the parts.

If it were definable, you would just assemble the parts and every single machine made according to the definition would be as good as the Addams Family, Medieval Madness, Attack From Mars, Monster Bash, Twilight Zone.

But just getting the fundamentals right doesn't create magic.

You can have a game with great shots, great rules, interesting toys, great music, etc...

And it still won't be magical.

And it still won't be a top tier pinball.

Data East / Sega pinballs made in the 90's show this VERY EXACTLY.

These machines have the elements of a top tier pinball. Some are better than others (Jurassic Park has magic!), but they all are solid, enjoyable pinball experiences.

But they don't have the MAGIC of the stuff that ends up eternally in the top tier of the pinball lists.

If it were perfectly definable, we could point to it, and say 'this is the reason', but what we can say is...

These machines don't have the magic. Not to the extent that the top tier pinballs do.

Not in my experience, my TFTC had gremlins I couldn't track down for a while, completely rebuilt the PS..zip...Replaced it...gremlins wouldn't go away. Finally threw a RD PS in, been rock solid ever since.

Williams "Junk Yard" from three years prior would like a word with you.

I'd rather have that style art than LW3, it works well with the theme.

Robocop is either you love or hate game and one of the more straightforward DE titles. Have 5 minutes to kill? Fire it up and have the movie one liners flow over you.

I'd buy that for a dollar!

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Robocop takes pinball and boils it down to its bare essence:

Right flipper? Shoot the spinner
Left flipper? Shoot the ramp

Add in some awesome sound, music, and the best film of the 1980s, and you got yourself a halfway decent pinball machine!

My experience are they are generally fun and amusing, ones that aren't head out the door. Playboy, Hook, Star Trek, Phantom of the Opera all didn't make the cut for one reason or another. Secret Service was up for awhile but is shoved into storage for better titles.

Few have a "magic feel" and that goes for all makes.

Agree 100000000% I learned my lesson, went nuts trying to figure that out. First pin I ever dragged to a repair person too. Wasted that money because the fix lasted a month.

I haven’t been in the hobby for as long as the old timers. I started in 2004, and I remember the general sentiment was that “we hate DE/Sega because they’re not Bally/Williams games.” Almost as if they were jealous that they survived through Stern after B/W shuttered their pinball division.

I love B/W as much as anyone, but there’s such a weird cult of personality that surrounds them and their games.

I think stepping back and looking at games objectively, DE/Sega compare very favorably to the B/W stuff.

DE LAH was my first pin. It will never leave. It is solid like a tank. Loaded with "LE" features. I think it is a blast to play. And it was so inexpensive! Had DE SW also solid but sold to get TSPP that has more depth.

There are obnoxious B/W snobs that tanked the reputation of DE/Sega games.

Sure B/W made some of the best games of all time in the 90s and the DEs are a step below for the most part, but there are still some great games they put out over the years.

BayWatch and GNR in particular I think are as good as any 90s B/W.

Batman Forever, LAH, Goldeneye, Tommy, Lazer War, Torpedo Alley, TFTC, Secret Service and Frankenstein are all solid games with some flaws here and there but are very entertaining overall.

It really is too bad many of their designs/code weren't more refined. They had soooo many A list licenses to really shine with. ID4 was a prime example. Great theme, fun to shoot. Even had great callouts from Will Smith and custom from Jeff Goldbloom, but the sound SUCKED ASS. So harsh and compressed sounding really took away from my enjoyment of the pin. It just sounded cheap.

Still regret selling it though. Fun table.