They always bring it up.
We certainly weren't buying pinball machines back then, just playing them.

My point was that data East/sega games are somewhat shallow rule wise. Wouldn’t Williams blackout having a deeper rule set add to this point?

My first and only DE is a Torpedo Alley, whose head was somehow warped. The sides of the head pushed down such that the outboard ends of bottom panel deflected downward about 3/8". The resultant bow was such that the speaker panel wouldn't sit flush across the bottom, the backglass could be tricky to remove, etc. When the head was unsecured you could cause it to flex by pivoting the hinge. It was so odd! I think my first post in the TA club thread shows this if you look close enough.

Now given the general wear throughout the rest of the game I wondered if somehow the head bottom had ever been wet or suffered other damage, but the rest of the cabinet and head - including the bottom of the side panels - was solid and secure, nothing flaking, nothing loose, no complaints.

Rather than disassemble the entire head to replace its randomly defective bottom panel, I had a 1/4" thick metal plate fabricated to size (with holes for the hinges, bolts, etc) and bent with an L-channel at the rear; I screwed that into the bottom & lower back of the head, to draw and keep wood panel flat and flush against it.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. Whitewater is just pure fun that with all elements coming together is a masterpiece.

DE doesn’t have a title even close to it.

TOM I’d agree with, all show.

Whitewater is a great pin.

Or calling them pinballs.

"I have a new pinball."

"Cool. Do you have a machine to put it in?"

I was using Blackout as an illustration because on its face it looks simple.

Also: How many people open the manual and check the rules? Not many. Simpsons, which just came home, has a few features I had to look up in the manual as the apron cards can only hold so much usable info on them.

Simpsons is harder than it looks; take multiball for example. To qualify for multiball you have to bring down the 3 center drops without draining which then lights one of the three ball locks. Two of the locks are fairly easy, the bigfoot/spinner lock is not.

On the launch of ball #2, #1 is released. Ready for jackpot shot? Too bad, not happening yet. Now you have to lock balls #1 and #2 to start three ball multiball.

Time for jackpot shot!

NOPE.

Now while you have all three balls rattling around the playfield you have to take out the center drops AGAIN and then make the jackpot shot while all three are in play. The 3 center drops are a stone cold pain in the ass to drop without draining.

I have done it once in 2 weeks of play.

Others like Robocop its a lot easier; lock, lock, multiball, ramp, jackpot.

EDIT: Oh, and there is nothing that keeps you from going into the rules and changing them. There is dozens of adjustments you can make to make the game more harder or easier to your taste. No reason to leave them on the default setting.

I agree, I was just being cheeky. I love pinball for the complex physics interactions of the ball between the player and the mechanical. Not just fancy tables!
But VP (the way we do it, at least) is more of a simulation than a game. A good recreation has realistic ball and material physics, emulated boards, and painstakingly accurate "physical" placement of all parts. A nice vpin cabinet even has real pinball mechs in all the right places and sound transducers so you can feel the ball moving. Not a chair at all!

My real point was to the thread, though: winding through my background (a minority on Pinside, I'm sure) to get to the point that in retrospect DE made good games that can be desirable *because* of their particular..."style."

That's like the people who call records, "vinyl".
"Hey man, i got some new vinyls".
Ugh. Its a record, LP, or an album. Vinyl is what it is made out of...

I've always understood much of the malign for "vinyls" is that the word "vinyl" can be both singular and plural and using the letter 's' at the end is incorrect. I'm not here to rob you of a pet peeve, but I think you may be fringe even in the "don't call them vinyls" crowd. I'd think vinyl, when used in context of a recording, is fairly descriptive because an "album" can describe a CD, a booklet of 78s, etc.

Perhaps I am not articulating my point well as well. Let me try again.

The OP is asking why there appears to be be so much disdain, shade, or "hate" towards DE/SEGA machines.
If he is seeing it, then it is palpable or a reoccurring theme on websites or the internets (what have you). I too have seen this nonsense as well.

I also knew fuck-all about pinball in the 1980's when I was putting quarters in games. Earliest memories playing Time Machine, Bad Cats, Silver Slugger, Cyclone, Escape from Lost World and Back to the future. I could not have cared less who made them and I'm sure folks playing **at the time** couldn't not have cared any less either. Again the poster's question as to why DE is so disparaged. Hence my explanation. Good for people who had/have collections of only A-list B/W machines, Ditto for LE/CE machines. Kind of boring in my book.

People are **currently** buying pinball machines and rating them on IPDB and pinside. I was simply giving evidence to back what I was saying. In one of the reviews of a DE game on IPDB, some jackass used the term "Played the least" (rhymes with Data East, get it?). Yes, I'm a fking mindless idiot on the tic-tok or youtube to inform what is good or not (sarcasm). You can see by my collection that I rather like DEs and other poorly rated games. Minus Sterns, those games are chintzy (now there is some pinball snobbery for you).

Have fun at VFW show and tell Cliff I said hi. It was funny when he made mention that keeping the Annex open for the campers was like giving us the keys to the Ferrari when, in all reality, it was more like giving the keys to the Escort.

I believe the answer is they don't. Maybe if this thread was started about a decade ago, but not now.