(Topic ID: 319141)

Why do 90s Data East and Sega Pins get so much hate?

By Wiggles

1 year ago


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  • 162 posts
  • 70 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by RyanStl
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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    There are 162 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 4.
    #151 1 year ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    ...was no internet in my life to tell me what to think.
    Not buying the snobbery thing.

    They always bring it up.
    We certainly weren't buying pinball machines back then, just playing them.

    #152 1 year ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    While true for a few games, not all of them and again I can't speak for the Sega stuff. Some of the DE games have surprisingly deep rules behind a simple facade.
    Like Williams Blackout; On the face it seems simple enough, knock down the drops and light the side targets and whack the saucer. You start looking at the rules and there is a whole 'nother layer behind that to expand out what you can explore and do in the game. Up to the player if they wish to do the exploration or not.

    My point was that data East/sega games are somewhat shallow rule wise. Wouldn’t Williams blackout having a deeper rule set add to this point?

    #153 1 year ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    I have owned 17 Data East, the only cab repairs I had to do was minor on a "container game" from Spain that had impact damage.
    That's it. Gottlieb is notorious for their particle board swelling monsters like Gold Wings and Hollywood Heat. The backside of Bally's and Williams also suffer the same way. I have a Mr & Mrs Pacman, Flash Gordon and Blackout with particle board backs that were just disintegrating.
    Can you point out to me which model DE you noted this problem so I can compare to the ones I have on hand? CrazyLevi (whom I respect quite a bit) is always saying bad things about DE cabs but I have yet to find a single one that isn't stout and in good condition. So much so that Seawitch from Scratch was assembled from a spare Laser War cabinet.

    My first and only DE is a Torpedo Alley, whose head was somehow warped. The sides of the head pushed down such that the outboard ends of bottom panel deflected downward about 3/8". The resultant bow was such that the speaker panel wouldn't sit flush across the bottom, the backglass could be tricky to remove, etc. When the head was unsecured you could cause it to flex by pivoting the hinge. It was so odd! I think my first post in the TA club thread shows this if you look close enough.

    Now given the general wear throughout the rest of the game I wondered if somehow the head bottom had ever been wet or suffered other damage, but the rest of the cabinet and head - including the bottom of the side panels - was solid and secure, nothing flaking, nothing loose, no complaints.

    Rather than disassemble the entire head to replace its randomly defective bottom panel, I had a 1/4" thick metal plate fabricated to size (with holes for the hinges, bolts, etc) and bent with an L-channel at the rear; I screwed that into the bottom & lower back of the head, to draw and keep wood panel flat and flush against it.

    #154 1 year ago
    Quoted from vikingerik:

    I think this "magic" is about 90% the sound and voice callout package. TAF, AFM, MM, MB, the big thing in common with them is how they *scream* encouragement to the player on just about every shot. DE/Sega never quite nailed this (and Gottlieb was terrible.) Stern did briefly with LOTR and TSPP but then slumped for quite a few years with lackluster announcers and phoned-in movie quotes, before finally recovering.
    Whitewater is my best example of this. It really should be a mediocre tier game by its design - the scoring is one-dimensionally dominated by 5x multiball, the flow isn't as good as it looks, the progression to the wizard award is weird (do everything else *then* get multiball, plus the class-6 river award comes only by luck), the layout has a nasty bumper exit right by the outlane and other hard-to-handle returns and kickouts. But it always ranks almost right up there with the other B/W titans. I'm convinced it's almost entirely due to the audio package of screaming encouragement.
    Theater of Magic is similar - unbalanced design (bonus X dominates), bad modes (most aren't worth shooting for), underwhelming wizard mode... but the irresistible exuberant female voice cheering you on never gets old.
    If you want that magic, get your voice package right.
    Anyway, while we're in the thread citing underrated Sega pins: Space Jam hasn't come up yet. That's a totally buried gem, that would have fit right in to the B/W lineup, complete with a solid audio package.

    I’m sorry but you are wrong. Whitewater is just pure fun that with all elements coming together is a masterpiece.

    DE doesn’t have a title even close to it.

    TOM I’d agree with, all show.

    #155 1 year ago
    Quoted from doublestack:

    I’m sorry but you are wrong. Whitewater is just pure fun that with all elements coming together is a masterpiece.
    DE doesn’t have a title even close to it.
    TOM I’d agree with, all show.

    Whitewater is a great pin.

    #156 1 year ago
    Quoted from pins4u:

    It really irks me when people call pinball machines - tables!
    A table is an entirely different thing from a pinball machine.

    Or calling them pinballs.

    "I have a new pinball."

    "Cool. Do you have a machine to put it in?"

    #157 1 year ago
    Quoted from Tommy_Pins:

    My point was that data East/sega games are somewhat shallow rule wise. Wouldn’t Williams blackout having a deeper rule set add to this point?

    I was using Blackout as an illustration because on its face it looks simple.

    Also: How many people open the manual and check the rules? Not many. Simpsons, which just came home, has a few features I had to look up in the manual as the apron cards can only hold so much usable info on them.

    Simpsons is harder than it looks; take multiball for example. To qualify for multiball you have to bring down the 3 center drops without draining which then lights one of the three ball locks. Two of the locks are fairly easy, the bigfoot/spinner lock is not.

    On the launch of ball #2, #1 is released. Ready for jackpot shot? Too bad, not happening yet. Now you have to lock balls #1 and #2 to start three ball multiball.

    Time for jackpot shot!

    NOPE.

    Now while you have all three balls rattling around the playfield you have to take out the center drops AGAIN and then make the jackpot shot while all three are in play. The 3 center drops are a stone cold pain in the ass to drop without draining.

    I have done it once in 2 weeks of play.

    Others like Robocop its a lot easier; lock, lock, multiball, ramp, jackpot.

    EDIT: Oh, and there is nothing that keeps you from going into the rules and changing them. There is dozens of adjustments you can make to make the game more harder or easier to your taste. No reason to leave them on the default setting.

    #158 1 year ago
    Quoted from pins4u:

    "Virtual Pinball" - basically a video game - IS NOT a pinball "MACHINE". It is a video representation of a pinball MACHINE and therefore could certainly be called a table, a chair, a dishwasher or anything else you like.
    However, a pinball machine that has mechanisms, clanks, whirs and flings balls around is most definitely a "mechanical machine" no matter which way you want to look at it and is not a table by any logical reasoning.

    I agree, I was just being cheeky. I love pinball for the complex physics interactions of the ball between the player and the mechanical. Not just fancy tables!
    But VP (the way we do it, at least) is more of a simulation than a game. A good recreation has realistic ball and material physics, emulated boards, and painstakingly accurate "physical" placement of all parts. A nice vpin cabinet even has real pinball mechs in all the right places and sound transducers so you can feel the ball moving. Not a chair at all!

    My real point was to the thread, though: winding through my background (a minority on Pinside, I'm sure) to get to the point that in retrospect DE made good games that can be desirable *because* of their particular..."style."

    #159 1 year ago
    Quoted from Tranquilize:

    Or calling them pinballs.
    "I have a new pinball."
    "Cool. Do you have a machine to put it in?"

    That's like the people who call records, "vinyl".
    "Hey man, i got some new vinyls".
    Ugh. Its a record, LP, or an album. Vinyl is what it is made out of...

    #160 1 year ago
    Quoted from ScottThePhotog:

    That's like the people who call records, "vinyl".
    "Hey man, i got some new vinyls".
    Ugh. Its a record, LP, or an album. Vinyl is what it is made out of...

    I've always understood much of the malign for "vinyls" is that the word "vinyl" can be both singular and plural and using the letter 's' at the end is incorrect. I'm not here to rob you of a pet peeve, but I think you may be fringe even in the "don't call them vinyls" crowd. I'd think vinyl, when used in context of a recording, is fairly descriptive because an "album" can describe a CD, a booklet of 78s, etc.

    2 weeks later
    #161 1 year ago

    Perhaps I am not articulating my point well as well. Let me try again.

    The OP is asking why there appears to be be so much disdain, shade, or "hate" towards DE/SEGA machines.
    If he is seeing it, then it is palpable or a reoccurring theme on websites or the internets (what have you). I too have seen this nonsense as well.

    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I didn’t know anything about pinball in 1993/1994.
    There was a theater, creature, Addams, gottlieb 1812 and de JP in the college game room.
    I played the gottlieb and DE once or twice. The other games got a lot of my money.
    Was it “snobbery?” I had zero idea what I was “supposed” to like. And there was no internet in my life to tell me what to think.
    Not buying the snobbery thing.

    I also knew fuck-all about pinball in the 1980's when I was putting quarters in games. Earliest memories playing Time Machine, Bad Cats, Silver Slugger, Cyclone, Escape from Lost World and Back to the future. I could not have cared less who made them and I'm sure folks playing **at the time** couldn't not have cared any less either. Again the poster's question as to why DE is so disparaged. Hence my explanation. Good for people who had/have collections of only A-list B/W machines, Ditto for LE/CE machines. Kind of boring in my book.

    Quoted from TheLaw:

    They always bring it up.
    We certainly weren't buying pinball machines back then, just playing them.

    People are **currently** buying pinball machines and rating them on IPDB and pinside. I was simply giving evidence to back what I was saying. In one of the reviews of a DE game on IPDB, some jackass used the term "Played the least" (rhymes with Data East, get it?). Yes, I'm a fking mindless idiot on the tic-tok or youtube to inform what is good or not (sarcasm). You can see by my collection that I rather like DEs and other poorly rated games. Minus Sterns, those games are chintzy (now there is some pinball snobbery for you).

    Have fun at VFW show and tell Cliff I said hi. It was funny when he made mention that keeping the Annex open for the campers was like giving us the keys to the Ferrari when, in all reality, it was more like giving the keys to the Escort.

    2 weeks later
    #162 1 year ago

    I believe the answer is they don't. Maybe if this thread was started about a decade ago, but not now.

    There are 162 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 4.

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