That's pretty awesome..

For sure. That game is 1000% theme.

I think Tommy & JP are are both standard Lawlor PF rips. JP is one of the biggest licenses ever & Tommy is a Lyman game. TFTC is a horrible layout and the only thing really good aboot it is the crypt keeper and chainsawing someones face off. The fact it's at the same level as the first 2 kind of show me the theme is carrying it.

I simply stated it is in this case, (though not to me) I have no opinion on horror pinball in general. People who own them generally love the theme.

I'll point out though against all odds that "The Walking Dead" is still in production and everyone around here was watching it when it debuted.

So there is a market. Women most of all love horror movies and such, I have no clue why.

Why "X" didn't do better in sales? TFTC only moved about 4500 units but the pinball market was clearly on a downhill slide at that point in time.

I played BSD for the first time at pintastic, very fun game and I'm not a fan of the genre. I'd consider owning one.

And Data East survived to become Stern while Williams is making gambling devices.

One can argue hamburger vs steak but Williams made its share of stinkers too.

Has nothing to do with that at all. Those teams did what they were required to do... push the games out the door with what they had in front of them. Not much differs from today except the groups of people buying the machines. Some of those DE titles were great for their time. But there are facts you can't ignore. DE sound is the worst. It was partially the hardware. They just had to try and "make it work" and not sound horrible. Also, DE pinball "borrowed" as much as they could from the industry to start their business. Hell, Laser War was a chopped up Road Kings machine and that's how DE was started in the first place. Gary S. and Joe K. built the game using a system 11 board set and just cut and pasted the playfield around until it worked the way they wanted.

I have listened to hours and hours of seminars from former employees of these companies talking about designing pinball machines in the 80's and 90's. Does not make me an expert but, the design teams never kept secrets about what they were trying to do and why they made the choices they did.

Nearly everything I mentioned here is simply information I remember from those presentations. That includes the "rushed and careless comment". It came directly from those Expo seminars, spoken directly from former designers/employees of Data East, Bally, and Williams.

I'm sure David Thiel daudioguy is crushed by your opinion, he designed the hardware and did the early sound work. You know the guy who did Hobbit, Alien, Pirates of the Caribbean, Star Trek, Tron, Iron Man, AC/DC, etc etc.

Gary Stern had legal ownership of rights to the Williams hardware, it would have been stupid not to use them you think?

Perhaps you missed daudioguy videos, several were posted and he discusses the early hardware and challenges bringing the first stereo pinball games to market, years ahead of everyone else.

Was anyone impressed hearing the worst fucking audio ever in stereo?

I’m sure these guys don’t take it personally. As has been stated many times they did the best they could and nobody is holding it against them personally.

It’s not like it’s some huge secret that data East/sega sound was total garbage compared to Williams stuff throughout the 80s and 90s.

total garbage seems harsh.. I figured the capabilities were lesser than DCS for sure.. but it seems like people complain mostly of a hum which relates to the power somehow, such that running filters, or a separate power to the sound board can mitigate it mostly?

An issue that has little to do with the sound board and is fixed with a plug in filter. Noisy power line from supply board.

That has not been my experience. Repetitive horrible sounds are what most people talk aboot.

On the other hand I've heard around 4-5 people, in 30 years, talk aboot the excitement of stereo sounds from the time period. 1 here, I think CaptainNeo is another.

DCS did not come out till 1993, by which point DE was using Brian Schmit's BSMT sound board for a few years.

lol.. that seems fair. Once I had evil cackling coming in stereo from my D&D and TFTC

It's cool that he tried to make it a success for DE. I'm sorry if I don't share the same enthusiasms as you. I love the early DE games a lot. But it has almost nothing to do with their sound design.

Mentioning some of the original designed hardware is one thing... the later, much improved hardware designs have little to do with this conversation. Just because someone designs something first does not immediately make it great. In fact, quite the opposite is typically the case. Hardware design and being a sound artist are obviously not the same things.

I don't want to make this a tech argument so let's not even go there. Data East branded "Digital stereo"... [The center speaker under the playfield runs in mono that reproduces the full sine wave. In the backglass the left speaker reproduces the left sine while the right speaker reproduces the right sine. The ROM contains the stereo information.]

Besides, pinball nerds didn't care much back in 87 about stereo marketing gimmicks in pinball, why should they now? It really has nothing to do with the silver ball. I'd rather the game actually have a mic on the PF relay the inside sounds and just amplify them so I can better hear all the actual action instead of some fantastically overlay-ed theme.

1) Never heard a great sounding one then. Time Machine might be one of the best and has distinct sound tracks for each time period. All written and orchestrated by David Thiel.

Only quibbles I have with early units is some of the cheese voice acting in Laser War and in Monday Night Football they had to compress the snot out of voices to cram in all the calls the game required.

2) David owned a company who designed the hardware, it's right in the games credits and if you watched any of his videos he talks at length about it.

Holy crap, I always knew there was something weird and hollow about DE's sound, but I never knew the actual, technical reason why. I suspect this is related.

I don't know if it still stands but the DE Pins used to be a score as far as features. What you get in the box compared to other pins you got more for your money. That is why I like them, I have moved on a little but when you are starting out in the hobby you can't beat them.

But the audio is so compressed, it sounds like dirty ass even without the hum. I have owned 4, and that is my #1 complaint. Other than Twister that only has 3 shots in the game.

Be specific, what timeframe? The early sound boards are noted for having limited storage space for voice (ram was VERY EXPENSIVE) but the other sounds were generated onboard. Later BSMT 2000 boards had more available space.

Personally I see a difference in pins between Data East and Sega. Sega did some brutal cost cutting at one point to stay alive, I had an X-files and it only had one speaker in the head even though it had spots for two! They simply omitted one speaker and left the sound board PCB unpopulated for the right channel.

After Maverick and Frankenstein Sega was fully in control, every once in awhile you see those two titles pop up with Data East cabinet art. They were truly the last of the DE titles.

My 1997 lost world still sounds compressed. Great call outs but the quality of sound is lacking.

Sound for one thing then the art. As far as DE they felt like a chore to play. I guess they have Pinsound now to help out in the sound and music department. SW and JP I quickly moved on. I really have no input for Sega as never owned one. Think only one I ever flipped was SW trilogy but don’t remember too much from that.

sPoiler alert: Trilogy is bad. Really bad.

I’ll admit baywatch is pretty solid! Horrible music and sound of course.

Damn......I really have fun with those games.

I have every DMD B/W (except non standard format pins like Safe Cracker and the speaker over top Ballys like Gilligans Island). Not a stinker among them.

I even put our Popeye on the floor and I'll be damned if it isn't our coin drop leader (for now).

hurricane
party zone
popeye

and plenty of games that if I never played again, I would never miss

WMS was on a roll.. with a whole herd of strong titles. That made the comparison for hobbyists all that much worse for DE/Sega at the time. We all loved our cheap date playing JP or whatever on location... but when faced with what people really wanted for their own.. the DE games tended to be less desirable. They didn't always hold up mechanically or PF wise as their peers either.

The days of DE titles just clogging up the forsale areas at shows trying to get them sold. Of course they also sat there with the inevitable flood of space shuttles and pinbots, and mario andretti's you could pretty much guarantee you'd see multiples of each for sale at every show

Pinball snobbery. Nothing more. Was DE a bit of a laggard to B/W? yes. Were they fun to play? Fk yeah. I do like the stereo sound of DE and the EVEN power of the front speakers. Were the games derivative? Some, yes. B/W had their playfield and back glass GI separated and WPC with dimming GI, okay cool. But the nose in the air to them is a real turn off. Some times I just want a fking burger and don't need or want filet mignon. I'm still impressed DE was able to create games with a minimal system 11 knock off and have some semblance of a WPC with rule set. Yes, B/W had a much more advanced chassis with the WPC with more intricate controls and presentation but pinball is pinball I have just as much fun, if not more playing LW3 as I do HS2. DE was fast and loose, look up why Slash went to DE for a pinball machine and not Williams. They each had their niche, some people just can't lower themselves.

OP asked for reasons why people generally don't care for DE games that much (Hate is a strong word, not going to use that).
No one said that you can't buy or enjoy one.

Sega = cost cutting.

It really irks me when people call pinball machines - tables!

A table is an entirely different thing from a pinball machine.

Like I always say: If you play it, it's a pinball machine. If you stack dirty clothes, crafts, pizza boxes, cat litter, etc,. on it, it's a table.

Correct, and I gave my short answer. I don't think anyone is going to argue that Bally/Williams put out a better machine than Data East did. Be at artwork, MPU, audio (dcs sound), and derivative tables. For said reasons people like to bash Data East machines. Hence my answer. That said, it seems that some folks sentiments are that they cannot be enjoyed because of mentioned reasons. There are reviews on ipdb that state as such.

.

People love Flash and Gorgar despite the most horrendous art.

I think for me the biggest turn away for DE/Sega games was the feel and gameplay experience on the later games in the DMD era. I've played several of the DE DMD games and the cabinet construction just felt cheap compared to Bally/Williams and Gottlieb. The stupid plastic shooter handle on Star Wars just felt bad to use. The gameplay was lacking and the cheapness feeling was made worse by silly plastic toys on the playfield (JP, SW, and Star Trek) meant to distract you from lacking gameplay.

The earlier DE games felt better built and more fun to play. They have that classic System 11 charm that just got lost in the DMD era.

Now I do love my Checkpoint and I don't think I would ever sell it. Mainly due to the theme, but the game play is fun and it does have great music. The artwork, especially the backglass, is on a completely different level than some of the other DE games. It looks fantastic and much more polished. I know the game was originally designed 2 years earlier than it's actual release. Perhaps a longer development time and being a non tv/movie theme is why it feels more polished? The cabinet build feels nice and solid like the earlier pre-DMD games and B/W and still has some of that late System 11 feel. It also has some consistently nice feeling shots (like the ramp, the right scoop, and the left spinner) that the later DMD DE games seem to lack.

The solid state flipper feel is definitely different and not necessarily a bad thing. They are certainly quite strong.

My biggest complaint with my Checkpoint is definitely the soundboard issue that plagued DE games. The hum is very noticeable and there is a buzz that pulses with the controlled lights during attract mode. I've never played a DE game that doesn't have the infamous sound board hums and buzzes. The pop bumpers feel kind of anemic as well.

... and terrible drop target mechs and poor flippers ..

I have owned 17 Data East, the only cab repairs I had to do was minor on a "container game" from Spain that had impact damage.

That's it. Gottlieb is notorious for their particle board swelling monsters like Gold Wings and Hollywood Heat. The backside of Bally's and Williams also suffer the same way. I have a Mr & Mrs Pacman, Flash Gordon and Blackout with particle board backs that were just disintegrating.

Can you point out to me which model DE you noted this problem so I can compare to the ones I have on hand? CrazyLevi (whom I respect quite a bit) is always saying bad things about DE cabs but I have yet to find a single one that isn't stout and in good condition. So much so that Seawitch from Scratch was assembled from a spare Laser War cabinet.

You can thank Williams for that, they sued Data East over mini-games on the DMD and they had to be removed at the last minute. There was a DMD speeder game that was suppose to be there where you navigated through the forest moon of Endor using the handle.

Unless I'm missing something Star Trek has no playfield toys at all and Jurassic Park is universally lauded for its ball eating dinosaur. People go nuts over that thing! The only beef I have with Star Wars is the optional topper looks like a cheap POS my game never came with and it has no shaker which is a crime in my opinion.

It still is the top selling Data East title in its history so perhaps from Gary Stern's point of view it was the right call to make. I'm going to wire one in and program it one of these days.

Virtually no difference in hardware from Torpedo Alley forward to the end of the DE era. Some like the one piece sling mechs are still in use to this day by Stern. Drops are very similar as well.

Now there is a title that people flog for being shallow, it is what it is. If you are a car guy, its a fun pin with well integrated shaker. I don't play mine all the time but it is more to my taste over several other DE titles which is why it is still here.. and they are not.

Checkpoint was the last pin to use a backglass, you give disservice to Batman, Phantom of the Opera and several other excellent backglasses DE had done. Once they moved totally into the translite era quality suffered, though Jurassic Park, Guns and Roses looks fine, even Hook is well done.

1) It spent most of that time on a shelf because at test locations it did poor and was canceled.

2) Gary Stern decided to jam it out because they wanted to beat Williams to market with the first DMD title and there was Checkpoint literally sitting on a pallet rack in dead storage.

No other reason.
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The early Data East games are pretty great in my opinion. Some have cheesy art (which I happen to like), but others like Robocop and Phantom are absolutely stunning and have a really nice presentation with their unique speaker panel design. Things definitely went down hill in the 90s. Every game was a license and the art sucked. They are nowhere near the level Williams was producing at the time whereas the early DE machines definitely gave the system 11 games a run for their money.

Wow. That's a lot! I haven't had to do any cabinet repairs on any of my games or family members games that I service. I meant that the later DE/Sega games that I've played on location and in private collections just didn't feel as solidly built when I was playing them. It just felt like the cabinet wood was thinner and had more give to it. Perhaps some of that was how they were set up on location.

That's really interesting. I never knew that.

I thought Star Trek had some moving ship target in the middle. It's been years since I've played it, so I maybe remembering that incorrectly. It's not that I don't like the dinosaur (it's actually kind of hilarious), it's more that it felt like they used gimmicks like that to make up for lack of gameplay. Like that helicopter on Gottlieb's Rescue 911.

I'm definitely not disagreeing that there's not much complexity to the rules on Checkpoint. It's a shoot the ramp over and over game. But I love the theme, it's fun and has that (for me at least) late 80s System 11 charm which makes it enjoyable.

I didn't know it was the last backglass game for DE. I just never really liked the art style on many of the other DE games. Robocop is one that is firmly cemented in my memory, particularly that playfield (which I think has horrible artwork). Simpsons works really well and looks great and some of the other earlier stuff like Time Machine looks alright, but isn't my favorite. I've never been super impressed with some of the later (post small DMD era) games artwork.

Interesting to know the backstory on it's release.

I don't dislike Data East and have enjoyed playing many of the earlier ones. The later ones just left me wanting something more and moving on to a different game.

The DE cabinets from 1990-onward aren't bad, but the late 80s ones don't age well. Those speaker panels become ill fitting as the wood dries, cracks, and warps, and the paint tends to flake easily all over the place. Those display board/panels come loose, scraping against the backglass. I've had a few and they were all pretty bad. The second-gen cabinets fixed these issues though.

I have some bad news about terminology in the virtual pinball community...

25% of recreations (virtual pinball tables) put out by the group I'm in are DE/Sega (TftC, SW, LW3, Maverick, Batman, Tommy, Goldeneye, Hook, Simpsons eventually) and our original creations are directly inspired by them. The bad art is seen as quintessential 90's pinball, the code as simple but engaging, and the layouts being derivative or not perfectly optimized...well, it really doesn't matter, because in virtual you're comparing them to literally every other pin from every era without the limitations of cheap or failing hardware, so you see the stinkers and experiments and celebrate them all as "part of the journey." DE may have been rushed and not desirable compared to their contemporaries, but in the grand scheme of pinball they had some mighty fine...tables

I've got Tommy, myself. Picked it up after updating/modding the virtual version, knowing its warts and which could be fixed with mods. I actually love the speaker hum during attract! ...but I'll happily sacrifice it to upgrade the rest of the sound with a Pinsound setup someday in the future!

1) Only complaint about the speaker panels is the chrome on them tends to go with age, most notably on Time Machine. You can send it out for plastic re-chroming or hit it with paint which 99% of people do.

2) How is the cabinet graphics starting to go better or worse than Williams cabinets? Space Shuttle is notorious for blistering and decals fading to the point they're illegible? I have seen an Indy that one side was completely faded to a uniform pale yellow.

Same solution applies, repaint and re-decal.

3) Yup displays pop off the sticking pads holding them in place, just like Williams.

These same complaints can be leveled at Williams or Bally. The reality is all these games are WAY past the point they should have been in a landfill. They had a projected lifespan of 1 to 3 years, 5 at best.

What is better about the later cabs? The cool locking mech. Swing the head up, rotate the allen wrench, done.

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Oh and on that Space Shuttle? I repaired it by hand, it was mine.

It's in some barcade in Maine now.

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Not crushed. There is no accounting for taste.

Clarification: I'm not an EE but I did specify the chips used in the first Data East sound board. I was a founder of Incredible Technologies, not an owner.

The DE sound board was similar to the 1986 Williams board. Both used a Yamaha YM2151 FM synthesizer chip. I spec'd better amp chips than WMS used. I am crushed that the 12 volt supply was corrupted by noise in the DE cabinet implementation.

The DE soundboard uses an OKI ADPCM chip to play back samples. WMS used a different compression technique. Both of them had a lot of artifacts.

I programmed the 2151 driver, sequencer and the sound programming on the soundboard's 6809 which was a good 8-bit cpu for the time.

While it was challenging to create music and three independent sound effects with 8 voices, I am still pleased with the results.

Any attempt at a spacial stereo field coming from a backbox is not easy (and still isn't). Unlike Williams DE directed the L and R outputs of the YM2151 to the respective back box speakers and summed them for the cabinet speaker. I took advantage of that wherever I could. SFXs from hitting targets on the left target back come from the left back box in a not so subtle way. Not a huge feature, but useful if you could hear your game.

ddt

With my limited experience with data east/sega, I get the feeling they were more focused on getting the game on location asap and targeting the casual audience with a few quarters in their pocket. The game features and rules can pretty much be explored in a few games, not leaving much for enthusiasts to come back for.

I know, should have added a /sarc tag. I figured a few items off your resume would get the point across.

Easily fixed too, there is a guy making plug in filters or you can do what I did and make a buck booster adapter.

Very notable on Laser War if you hit the left spinner, the sound effect ONLY comes out the left speaker. Robocop has some directional sound going on as well, easy to tell when the dual speaker pot is getting fussy again.

Thanks for the great videos with the early DE history David!
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While true for a few games, not all of them and again I can't speak for the Sega stuff. Some of the DE games have surprisingly deep rules behind a simple facade.

Like Williams Blackout; On the face it seems simple enough, knock down the drops and light the side targets and whack the saucer. You start looking at the rules and there is a whole 'nother layer behind that to expand out what you can explore and do in the game. Up to the player if they wish to do the exploration or not.

Video with buck booster in operation, virtually silent.

I had to coin up a game to prove it was even on.

To old timers like myself the answer is simply if you were in the hobby in the 90's, it was William's you wanted, Data East/Sega if you couldn't get William's, and Gottlieb if you were desperate there were exceptions to this of course, but in general this was true.

In the early 90's I shared a location with another operator, I put an Addams Family in brand new, which took all the play away from the other operators pins, for the next 2+years he kept bringing in DE games like JP, LW, and R&B trying to knock my TAF out, never was even a close fight. DE and Sega seemed to always be playing catch up to BW's, even when they were actually being innovative, look at the DMD, DE first but with the wrong size, Williams then brings out T2 with the standard DMD and crushes them‍♂️

I didn’t know anything about pinball in 1993/1994.

There was a theater, creature, Addams, gottlieb 1812 and de JP in the college game room.

I played the gottlieb and DE once or twice. The other games got a lot of my money.

Was it “snobbery?” I had zero idea what I was “supposed” to like. And there was no internet in my life to tell me what to think.

Not buying the snobbery thing.

"Virtual Pinball" - basically a video game - IS NOT a pinball "MACHINE". It is a video representation of a pinball MACHINE and therefore could certainly be called a table, a chair, a dishwasher or anything else you like.

However, a pinball machine that has mechanisms, clanks, whirs and flings balls around is most definitely a "mechanical machine" no matter which way you want to look at it and is not a table by any logical reasoning.