(Topic ID: 225124)

Why dmd's are so expensive?

By ViperVS

5 years ago


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  • 45 posts
  • 19 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Pin_Guy
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    #1 5 years ago

    Why isn't anyone producing cheaper (non color) lcd alternatives to very old tech gas dmd's (which are now banned in europe anyway)? Demand for B/W machines is obviously there.

    You would think that a basic modern lcd display that size could be sold at 50-100$. But all I can find online are 250$ gas DMD's or 400$ color dmd.

    #2 5 years ago

    Probably bc they are obsolete and are rarely used anymore other than pinball and few other things . Odd size and not many made equals expensive product?

    #3 5 years ago

    Also there are orange lcds made by a few companies but most people probably want full color now...especially for not much more money

    #4 5 years ago
    Quoted from bigd1979:

    Probably bc they are obsolete and are rarely used anymore other than pinball and few other things . Odd size and not many made equals expensive product?

    Rarely used in new machines yes. But used in every machine produced from -91 to 2010? That's a lot of potential buyers. And currently people are not buying them because of the price. If new ones were around 80$, they would sell like hot cupcakes.

    Producing LCD display in modern age costs pennies compared to that old gas DMD.

    #5 5 years ago

    http://www.drpinball.co.uk/

    DMD extender. Expensive a bit in the end. But lets you use any size LCD monitor. And cheaper than plasma. Or color DMD.

    60 GBP. + A raspberry Pi. And the cost of a monitor.

    #6 5 years ago
    Quoted from bigd1979:

    Also there are orange lcds made by a few companies but most people probably want full color now...especially for not much more money

    If the price difference is 100$ then yes. Color DMD is 400$. So this brings as back to the original question about that price.

    I mean you can get 7" full color touch screen LCD for rasperry PI for 55€:
    https://www.dx.com/p/elecrow-raspberry-pi-3-display-7-inch-touch-screen-hdmi-hd-lcd-tft-1024-x-600-monitor-for-raspberry-pi-3-2b-b-pcduino-win7-8-white-495964#.W5dYaV4zbyQ

    What is there I don't get?

    #7 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    Rarely used in new machines yes. But used in every machine produced from -91 to 2010? That's a lot of potential buyers. And currently people are not buying them because of the price. If new ones were around 80$, they would sell like hot cupcakes.
    Producing LCD display in modern age costs pennies compared to that old gas DMD.

    Possibly but most people i think will just go with full color these days and seems alot of dmd pins are allready converted to color dmd. I believe the stern lcd displays are 150-195 but they just dont look good bc of the multiple lcd blocks used imo. Plus plenty of nice basically new lcd displays can b bought for 100.00

    #8 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    If the price differance is 100$ then yes. Color DMD is 400$. So this brings as back to the original question about that price.
    I mean you can get 7" full color touch screen LCD for rasperry PI for 55€:
    https://www.dx.com/p/elecrow-raspberry-pi-3-display-7-inch-touch-screen-hdmi-hd-lcd-tft-1024-x-600-monitor-for-raspberry-pi-3-2b-b-pcduino-win7-8-white-495964#.W5dYaV4zbyQ
    What is there I don't get?

    I mainly think its just bc of the odd size and low demand for them this day in age.

    #9 5 years ago
    Quoted from erak:

    http://www.drpinball.co.uk/
    DMD extender. Expensive a bit in the end. But lets you use any size LCD monitor. And cheaper than plasma. Or color DMD.
    60 GBP. + A raspberry Pi. And the cost of a monitor.

    Not exactly a plug-and-play replacement option is it?
    Where do you get a spare LCD display of a size of original Pinball DMD? Or cheap. You end up with a 200$ components and a lot of work.

    There are LED OCD boards and 100 other MODs (that cost 100-200$) which are sold in very small numbers. And no one bothers to reproduce something as essential as a replacement DMD screen?

    #10 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    Not exactly a plug-and-play replacement option is it?
    Where do you get a spare LCD display of a size of original Pinball DMD? Or cheap. You end up with a 200$ components and a lot of work.

    I have the DMD extender in my TZ and it is great. I have it hooked up to an LCD screen as per the instructions and it works perfectly. I wanted it to create
    A black & white display like the tv show. It works perfectly and if I still want to hook up the DMD I can do that as well.
    But I thin you answered your own question here. It is Expensive to do this stuff. It's not like a pinball machine has an HDMI out you can just plug into. Someone has to write code to translate the DMD pins and signals to display it on the screen. And the components needed are expensive! This is why ColorDMD is so costly

    #11 5 years ago
    Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

    And the components needed are expensive! This is why ColorDMD is so costly

    Color DMD is expensive because of the complexity. It needs software to produce colors (that are not there to begin with) and is programmable etc.

    Singlecolor dots could be converted in a chip. I don't think original plasma DMD has any software on it.
    So you need a correct size LCD, converter and a connector. Sure as hell would not cost more than 30$ if produced in quantities of 5000 or 10,000.

    Am I sensing a potential market gap here?

    #12 5 years ago

    $60 GBP $35 raspberry Pi and a 15" computer monitor from a thrift store or AliExpress and your good to go. $10 GBP for the LCD mounting hardware.
    If you can't build one yourself.

    15.6" screens on AliExpress $42 U.S

    My local thrift store $10 cdn.

    Remember color DMD is just a standard decased laptop monitor. Not a custom thin plasma sized.

    Should cost you under $200 U.S total.

    #13 5 years ago
    Quoted from erak:

    $60 GBP $35 raspberry Pi and a 15" computer monitor from a thrift store and your good to go. $10 GBP for the LCD mounting hardware.
    If you can't build one yourself.
    Remember color DMD is just a standard decased monitor. Not a custom thin plasma sized.
    Should cost you under $200 U.S total.

    I'm not looking for a project to create a frankenstein that would take hours and cost 50$ less than a new DMD.

    I'm asking why there isn't a plug-and-play (single color) LCD or LED for 100$ available?

    #14 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    I'm not looking for a project to create a frankenstein that would take hours and cost 50$ less than a new DMD.
    I'm asking why there isn't a plug-and-play (single color) LCD for 100$ available?

    Because it takes all the things I listed above to build one. And companies need to make a profit. If you could get monitors custom made from China. And a knock off raspberry Pi. To interpret the DMD signal. It may end up someday costing $100 for one.
    But I wouldn't hold my breath, pinball is a niche market. And that means pay more $.

    But untill then, everything available currently the best and cheapest plug and play solution.

    #15 5 years ago

    I can almost say for certain that when Stern dumped the dmd in favor of the LED display, it was because it was much cheaper. Stern pays very little in bulk for many of the high priced items we pay hundreds for.

    #16 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    If new ones were around 80$, they would sell like hot cupcakes.

    Mmmmm, hot cupcakes.8F0AE235-8524-4063-98C5-DFD4D59F7FEA (resized).png8F0AE235-8524-4063-98C5-DFD4D59F7FEA (resized).png

    #17 5 years ago
    Quoted from erak:

    Because it takes all the things I listed above to build one. And companies need to make a profit. If you could get monitors custom made from China. And a knock off raspberry Pi. To interpret the DMD signal.

    Not really. For single color, you don't need a PC, operating system and complicated software. That's a huge overkill. Original DMD and Stern LED's are not using any software either.

    Just a simple onboard decoder would do the job.
    That "drPinball DMD extender" is halfway there. If it could drop the need for rasberry PI nonsense and have a video output of it's own, then it would be decent product.

    #19 5 years ago
    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    Two words,
    Aspect ratio.

    I know. Different size screens would be out of the question. That would require one standard size LCD. Or led matrix board (as display), that would not need a video signal. It would simplify things even more.
    And if you are going for all-in-one/plug-and-play product then you don't need a support for various display sizes.

    #20 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    I'm not looking for a project to create a frankenstein that would take hours and cost 50$ less than a new DMD.
    I'm asking why there isn't a plug-and-play (single color) LCD or LED for 100$ available?

    Dr pinball is putting together a new LED DMD that should be pretty plug and play, I believe the initial batch will be $250 a- that is about as good as it will get as far as know. There are
    Also the x-pin LEDs which are $250 as well I believe

    #21 5 years ago

    Pinball is expensive. Deal with it or make your own. It's a luxury hobby.

    #22 5 years ago

    If it were easy and cheap it would be done already.

    If you still think it is then make them yourself and start selling them.

    #23 5 years ago

    So you think the existing options are either too DIY or too expensive.

    Sort of answering your own question aren’t you?

    #24 5 years ago
    Quoted from bigd1979:

    I believe the stern lcd displays are 150-195 but they just dont look good bc of the multiple lcd blocks used imo.

    Stern games like ACDC, GOT, and GB used a red LED display, not LCD.

    #25 5 years ago

    LED ColorDMD is $369 vs the LCD ColorDMD $399. http://shop.colordmd.com/led-displays/

    #26 5 years ago

    Why is the product you want not $100?
    Because companies that could have them need higher volume beyond what you think,
    Companies that would service customers here, would need to make money.
    (That $15 Pasta dish at dinner costs around $.86 to make)
    After sales and before sales, service, emails, and support in this hobby are very time consuming,
    along with employee costs, insurance, overhead, etc.

    Your estimate is real, only with large numbers, and no service.....

    IMHO.

    #27 5 years ago
    Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

    Why is the product you want not $100?
    Because companies that could have them need higher volume beyond what you think,
    Companies that would service customers here, would need to make money.
    (That $15 Pasta dish at dinner costs around $.86 to make)
    After sales and before sales, service, emails, and support in this hobby are very time consuming,
    along with employee costs, insurance, overhead, etc.
    Your estimate is real, only with large numbers, and no service.....
    IMHO.

    This must be the reason.

    Product itself would not be very complex. A single board of 128x32 smd leds with a decoder chip. All using already available 12V power.

    I guess the volumes are just not there. Or we would have Samsung and Sony already involved in this

    #28 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    This must be the reason.
    Product itself would not be very complex. A single board of 128x32 smd leds with a decoder chip. All using already available 12V power.
    I guess the volumes are just not there. Or we would have Samsung and Sony already involved in this

    I MAKE a custom DMD for my DMD aprons. 4096 individual LEDs. It’s a freaking nightmare. Yeah, it’s simple in theory, but unless you’re going to run 10000 of them they are going to be expensive. For me to get them made at a level just so that I can sell them at a reasonable price and make NO money I have to order $10,000.00 worth at a clip.

    #29 5 years ago

    And it’s not just “a decoder chip”.

    This is what you need.

    33899137-241B-4C20-B8BC-3125CF4CFFB7 (resized).jpeg33899137-241B-4C20-B8BC-3125CF4CFFB7 (resized).jpegD8DC0498-EC12-422E-BD52-FE1DAEFC6B4C (resized).jpegD8DC0498-EC12-422E-BD52-FE1DAEFC6B4C (resized).jpeg
    #30 5 years ago
    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    I MAKE a custom DMD for my DMD aprons. 4096 individual LEDs. It’s a freaking nightmare. Yeah, it’s simple in theory, but unless you’re going to run 10000 of them they are going to be expensive. For me to get them made at a level just so that I can sell them at a reasonable price and make NO money I have to order $10,000.00 worth at a clip.

    Yup, when I looked into this...Vishay, China, Taiwan....10,000 units was the amount needed to start.
    $50 was a target. All said and done, freight, advertising, storage, close to 1 Million dollars to start
    this business! Break even would be by my estimates, 10-12 years, if lucky.

    #31 5 years ago

    I build large LED displays for promotion, billboards, rock bands, etc. The cheapest we could find from a wholesaler for 32x32 panels (at 6mm which is way too large for pinball) was $18, even when I buy 200 of them; we don’t build more than 2 at a time and I can’t justify a warehouse so we do JIT ordering. Anyway that is JUST the panel, not any custom processing going on, no special brackets that have to be formed, etc. And no “decoder chip”. Perhaps the OP is assuming that h264 decoding that is built into many computers-on-a-chip now is the same as DMD signalling? Plus you have to pay people to assemble them.

    #32 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    You would think that a basic modern lcd display that size could be sold at 50-100$.

    With all due respect, your premise is wrong. Commodity consumer products are only as low-cost as they are because of the huge volumes. You need quantities of millions to get manufacturing costs as low as they are for lcd panels. The ColorDMD idea of using a commodity 15.6" display and hiding most of it behind the backglass was simply brilliant.

    A related question that I haven't been able to answer is, Where are all the used DMDs that were replaced by ColorDMDs? You think you'd see them for sale all over.

    #33 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    I'm not looking for a project to create a frankenstein that would take hours and cost 50$ less than a new DMD.
    I'm asking why there isn't a plug-and-play (single color) LCD or LED for 100$ available?

    Because very few people want one, and the market is too small...

    #34 5 years ago
    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    This is what you need.

    That is awesome, even if it's not practical. I'm guessing you didn't hand assemble it.

    #35 5 years ago
    Quoted from KerryImming:

    With all due respect, your premise is wrong. Commodity consumer products are only as low-cost as they are because of the huge volumes. You need quantities of millions to get manufacturing costs as low as they are for lcd panels. The ColorDMD idea of using a commodity 15.6" display and hiding most of it behind the backglass was simply brilliant.
    A related question that I haven't been able to answer is, Where are all the used DMDs that were replaced by ColorDMDs? You think you'd see them for sale all over.

    I usually keep mine in case the ColorDMD craps out (even though none to date ever have)

    #36 5 years ago
    Quoted from herg:

    That is awesome, even if it's not practical. I'm guessing you didn't hand assemble it.

    Imagine the “tweezer cramp”!
    No, my friends at Itead studio did my production run. I will be doing them in the lab from now on though given I have the pick and place.

    #37 5 years ago
    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    And it’s not just “a decoder chip”.
    This is what you need.[quoted image][quoted image]

    Now that is a very nicely layed out board. Please take note pinballsp fan boys THIS is how you layout / route a pcb.

    #38 5 years ago

    I have a plasma for sale but they are getting harder to get rid of. I think the market is reaching saturation. Every new ColorDMD produces a used plasma that shows up, often in groups. And even though they go for $100 vs $200+ new, they are still for sale.

    #39 5 years ago
    Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

    Yup, when I looked into this...Vishay, China, Taiwan....10,000 units was the amount needed to start.
    $50 was a target. All said and done, freight, advertising, storage, close to 1 Million dollars to start
    this business! Break even would be by my estimates, 10-12 years, if lucky.

    The purpose of the thread was to get comments from people that have better knowledge and have thought this further.
    And I got the answer.

    It's just hard to understand when you see all those online stores (ebay, Dealextreme, Wish etc) full of pirate and knock-off electronics sold for few dollars. Some are quite a lot more complex. Like mobile phones. Hell I can buy a new legit 32" LED TV (with remote, speakers, user interface, antennae and cable receiver, image processor, USB media recorder support, ok you got the idea) for 150€ from an actual walk in store here in Finland. And that includes 24% tax + seller's cut 30%? = 80€ TV. Which costs 20e to produce.

    TL;DR - Conclusion: It's should be made in China and in very large quantities.

    #40 5 years ago

    There is almost zero chance anyone is going to put up the capital to make 10K units for a product is becoming obsolete...that being said I am a bit surprised there aren't more dmd's on the secondary market as many are upgrading to color dmd, which is 100x the product. I suspect many like myself keep the dmd's in case they sell the machine and the new buyer doesn't want to pay for the color dmd.

    #41 5 years ago
    Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

    I usually keep mine in case the ColorDMD craps out (even though none to date ever have)

    Same here, or at least one of each type. 1 Plasma, 1 Stern LED, etc.

    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    I will be doing them in the lab from now on though given I have the pick and place.

    That's really cool. All the stuff you're doing, I don't know how you have the time. I'm trying to limit my projects, and you just keep adding them. I did, however, get wrapped up in a new project a couple of weeks ago. I'd love to have a pick and place and an oven to do a small, less expensive run of those.

    Quoted from Crash:

    even though they go for $100

    Sounds like they don't go for $100 anymore. There seems to be a glut of used DMDs, and they all have an unknown remaining lifetime.

    #42 5 years ago
    Quoted from PtownPin:

    There is almost zero chance anyone is going to put up the capital to make 10K units for a product is becoming obsolete...that being said I am a bit surprised there aren't more dmd's on the secondary market as many are upgrading to color dmd, which is 100x the product. I suspect many like myself keep the dmd's in case they sell the machine and the new buyer doesn't want to pay for the color dmd.

    Problem is that a used dmd is worth 75 to 100 for most people. A new dmd is 175 or so. A color dmd is what 400? Yet people expect to get exactly 400 more for their game with it, despite it being used and not discounting the value of a normal dmd. Kinda baffling really.

    #43 5 years ago
    Quoted from KerryImming:

    A related question that I haven't been able to answer is, Where are all the used DMDs that were replaced by ColorDMDs? You think you'd see them for sale all over.

    The simple answer...Pinball people are parts hoarders.

    I have 4 of them, most have less than 100 hours run time. But why would I sell them? There is no way they are going to get cheaper and even if they do the price people want to pay for a used DMD panel gives me 0 incentive to sell any of them. This was mentioned before, pinball isn't a cheap hobby to be in, TBH most people in the hobby that would have these displays either consider $100 to be a fairly insignificant amount of money, or retain their original display to re-install in the pin at a later time if they decide to sell the machine as they can transfer the ColorDMD to another machine they acquire.

    I know it sucks...$400 for a color DMD! Fact is you aren't paying for a DMD panel or an LCD panel you are paying for the costs associated with the development and colorizing of the original displays. I personally was happy to pay $400 for a color DMD panel to put in my Stern Star Trek LE since I am getting a fantastic upgrade at what I consider to be a reasonable cost.

    #44 5 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    Problem is that a used dmd is worth 75 to 100 for most people. A new dmd is 175 or so. A color dmd is what 400? Yet people expect to get exactly 400 more for their game with it, despite it being used and not discounting the value of a normal dmd. Kinda baffling really.

    $450 if u live in California...the great thing about the color dmd is that you can remove it and use it on another game...that being said most buyers are willing to pay up for the color dmd (I certainly have)...if they don't want it I just install the old crappy one and call it a day.

    #45 5 years ago
    Quoted from ViperVS:

    Conclusion: It's should be made in China and in very large quantities.

    And if the very large quantities could be sold fast enough to show profit on a quarterly earnings report they would be ... fact is, it's just never going to happen.

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