However, this is not 1999. Point I was making as Lloyd did earlier is game prices were going up in a relatively stagnant economy. I'm not sure what the P2K game cost new, but they had to cost more to make than the regular games. While some of the other machines were being blown out at fire sale prices.

Players like myself had gotten used to seeing one regular game after another with more features and other entertaining elements that kind of peaked when MM came out. It was always like , OK what can they do next? The follow up games from them were spotty with games like CV and CC being almost unplayable because of code issues and whatnot.

I played the P2K games, but it was always "nice, but when will we see the next real pinball machine?" It never happened from Williams, and I went on a surfing safari anyway, so was totally unaware at the time that pinball had almost died, as it had done this before and I wasn't really into researching it at the time. And there were still new routed games to play like South Park, but not as many places left to play them.

I think pinball really reached its peak popularity in the late 1970's and 1980's but most of the best pins came out in the 1990's. I remember going to arcades and there was mostly pinball machines and over a few years time it became mostly video arcade machines, and the generation after me slowly lost interest in playing pinball. i would go in an arcade 20-25 years ago and it was all video, there might be a couple of pins that would be mostly unplayable.

You are correct. They added significant cost and weight to devices operators didn’t want to buy anyway.

As I recall. A game like MM about $3600, P2K about $4200. Plus $2400 for kit to make it a SWE1. $6600 in a dying industry.

LTG : )

I agree with all the comments. But as has been said before, PB2K will forever be judged on the only 2 games that made it to production. All the cool features (particularly the game/cabinet swapping) might have taken off in an environment where the production lasted longer than 18 months. As I remember WMS had no problems selling either title, folks were initially receptive even with the price increase.

How much did South Park cost? That thing, even today I hear, is and was a quarter eater.

Come to think of it, Taxi was removed around the time they introduced the Double Gulp!

Coincidence?

(The Super Big Gulp (44 oz.) appeared in 1986; the Double Gulp (64 oz.) in 1989)

An article from Oct. 1999 pretty much sizes it up

https://www.nytimes.com/1999/10/28/technology/pinball-line-closing-down.html

The Williams and Bally machines are being retired in part because of the success of the company's line of slot and video gambling machines.

''Ultimately, it comes down to how much these games earn,'' said Kevin Verner, chief operating officer of WMS Industries. ''Even 10 years ago, a successful game could sell 10,000 to 15,000 units. We haven't sold 15,000 units in a long time.''

The sound at FREE GOLD WATCH shouldn’t be low on POTC. I just turned it up. Done by the silkscreen crew during the day. Feel free to nail that bell and ask them to crank it next time. Apologies!

If this has already been covered I apologize, but the versatility and cost of not just arcade cabs but the boards was likely a huge factor. As an operator, you could (and can still today) buy a board or a kit and essentially pop it into any cabinet you want. Tempest stop earning for you? Buy the major havoc board and marquee and toss it into the same cabinet. Turn that game into something else in a year and rinse and repeat for fractions of the cost of what it would take to rotate the newest pins out at that pace.

Just today I saw an "Atari Street Fighter" on the local CL that was a SF in an Asteroids cabinet that was painted all black.

Obviously this wasn't the only reason but pins just weren't and still aren't this versatile and cheap where you dont have to buy a whole game everytime you need something fresh.

"The Super Big Gulp (44 oz.) appeared in 1986; the Double Gulp (64 oz.) in 1989; the X-Treme Gulp (52 oz.) in 2001; and finally, in 2006, came the Team Gulp. It holds 128 ounces—one gallon—of soda."

7-11 had me hooked on these monster cups pre super big gulp I think.

Not my picture.

image (resized).jpeg

I never bought one when new. Still a good earner today.

LTG : )

Oh thanks ! I was so happy to play POTC and already so wowed by how many pinballs you have there, not mentioning their great condition that I didn't want to sound like a spoiled brat !

Not could its just a matter of time, I just don't see the kids of today buying or even going out to play pinball. Video games will be so advanced by the time they are 30/40 that pinball will be ancient history. I know u pinball geeks of which I am one would like to think otherwise but in my opinion its unavoidable.

Most arcades had at least one .... And it was almost always broken.

Not sure if you were alive and just don’t remember but tapes allowed you to listen to what you wanted to in your car or while walking around. You could also make your own mix tapes instead of waiting for K-Tel to release the perfect mix on vinyl. It’s convenience far surpassed it’s lack of quality. Unless you were playing LPs in your Caddie or something not sure how you would do better.

I remember going to chuck-e-cheeses about 1980 for my birthday party. There was a ‘79 playboy in the pin lineup.

Can you imagine the complaints today??
Never happen today

Yeah I played wolf3d in middleschool, very educational.

The Southland Corporation threw out pins once their scientific analysis determined they made ore money per square foot renting/selling Videos

Almost every single pinhead I know did not grow up playing pinball - that includes guys like me in our 40s. We all came to it later.

There’s a few old cuckers but it’s mostly people in their late 20s, early 30s at league now. None of them ever played location pinball.

Ops stopped operating pins because video was easier, people stopped playing pins because there were less of them, plus vids were more compelling at the time. Feedback loop, pinball dies out for 20 years.

You're probably right, but I started at 9 years old in Denver at Celebrity Lanes. I loved electronic stuff, mostly from my R/C interests and pinball was the coolest thing around.

I definitely think pins are more of an adult thing. Video games are much more attractive to kids. Easier to understand, more interactive, and less skills involved. Pins are not much fun if you drain all the time and cannot get anything going. Rules get complicated and most novices are just focused on keeping the ball from draining. My kids rarely play but will play video stupid phone video games all day. I don't get it but have to say I was the same back when I was young.

Here in the Midwest 1980s-1990s 7-11 really served as the community arcade. This is where everyone gathered to play.
There was a corner convenience store that usually featured 2 pins and 1 arcade, or 2 arcades 1 pin or just 2 machines.
I would go get a Big Gulp, couple comics and play until I had to turn back around and ride home.
Even when I got older same crowd would huddle around the MK2, KI or SF games and play for quarters. There would be
some WPC era pin on location that would rotate out every couple months.

For most of us in the Midwest getting to a mall, chuck cheese or other destination required mom and dad.
Convenience store just require a lot of foot power and hustling neighbors for lawn mowing or raking jobs.

Clerks pretty much summed up our culture.

We would pay pinball with all the cops when they came in for a break. Sometimes they'd try to work intel out of us.

When we got old enough to drive we would cruise to all the billiards and play there but 7-11s were always close by.

I think 1991-1994 7-11 and convenience stores stopped letting operators move machines in. Think ownership may
of changed hands and Clerks culture stopped. You'd find more offshore operators who didn't want us pesky kids there.

Maybe there was local ordinances. Regardless no more games at 7-11.

We had no 7-11s here,but luckily we had a bunch of arcades. I remember every once in awHile my parents would drive us to the next town to get a slushie.

Thats a good thing and I hope it doesn't die but I wouldn't put my money on its survival in the long run.

Survive? I'd lay money on that. There is enough of an influx into the community that it's not going anywhere anytime soon. It will certainly outlive me.
Thrive? Depends on what you mean. I think it's arguably "thriving" now.
Rise up to its former glory? Probably not.

Nobody cares about "former glory." None of us will EVER return to our "former glory," in that we'll never be stoned teenagers in the 70s and 80s again with low body fat, lots of hair, and zero obligations and enough free time and money to spend our days at the skanky arcade smoking cigs, goofing off with our friends, and trying to convince everybody we were getting laid. That shit ain't coming back for anybody or anything - it's a different world. It's 2018 now.

Pinball IS thriving. It's kicking absolute ass, more than it has, ever, since I started collecting in 2002.

The idea that "the bubble will burst," or some kind of reckoning is on the horizon that will blow up pinball like a nuclear blast is absolutely ridiculous and based upon nothing but wishful thinking by people who have managed to convince themselves that someday soon they can get a TAF for $1,500.

AINT GONNA HAPPEN.

Pinball is back. It's here to stay. It aint going anywhere for a very long time. The current model is sustainable in the hobby and the industry. It may change, there may be bumps one way or the other but the proclaimations of doom are laughable and have been making people look stupid for well over a decade.

So hey, keep at it!

No wonder this hobby and industry are going to hell in a hand basket.

When I was growing up, pinball arcades are where all the cool kids and hot chicks hung out.
601a6878c1904dd25b5f77f2818c4a02--arcade-games-pinball-games (resized).jpg

I was trying to say nowadays you have to go out of your way to buy a manual transmission car. Used to be standard shift was common but now it’s the odd duck. Something like 3-4% of cars are sold with MT in the US. Nowadays you have to go out of your way to find pinabll machines and they are not universally bought or appreciated like they might have been 20-30 years ago.

People who like MT cars, like them because you have to move a lever and be engaged somewhat in driving a car. Now we have cars that can drive by themselves heck without even a drive in the car.

So I was saying pinball folks like them because you have to do something physical, you are actually connected to the game experience (apologies to DI with it’s Bluetooth connect to try to woo the younger generation).

To me a pinball machine is not about Bluetooth connection and even video modes are viewed as suspect.

Playing pinball with gloves, now that's fancy !

I knew the geeks would pounce a little, all I said was that it won't last and I stick to it, 30 40 years and I think long before that it will return to people trading whats out there. R u guys really so optimistic that you can't see where home console/VR video games will be in just 10 years? Ah who cares anyway

Wouldn't want to get anything gooey on those lovely hands, now would she?

Take it easy Levi its just a game.

The 7-11 theory of the decline of western civilization. It has legs, this one.....

The real issue is all of those games look the same. 2 ramps, a shitty orange display, irrelevant pop bumpers, two slings near the flippers, plunge to the right hand side. I know there are exceptions, but pinball is pretty boring after a few games. Been there, done it, flipped it. B/W dmd wasn’t the golden age, it killed pinball.

Damn. Gauntlet thrown down.

I think pinball machine will still be around for another 20 years. However, my view at pinball is bit pessimistic. Since my family members have no interest in pinball machine. So I always told my wife how much I paid for in each pinball machine. Just in case something happened to me. She won’t exchange my whole collection for a washing machine and a dishwasher (Just kidding).

I think that's a bandage you fuckin' perverts. She's like 14 also.

So was I. The 70s had their own rules anyway that most now would not not understand.

Yeah but you don't live in the past remember?

So as it is you are a disgusting old man oggling a 14-year old.

That is a great book though - really the only good pinball book ever put out in my opinion. Great writing and photos.

I don't live in the past, I fondly remember it. It must have been a way better time to be growing up than it is now.

And you can give your judgmental, holier than thou attitude a rest.

People keep saying that but it's impossible for us to know because we're not growing up now. You just assume because even gets a trophy for everything g that it's bad... But maybe if you were getting the rewards you'd like it.
When you guys where a young a picture like that was porn, that doesn't sound better.

Hard to tell if it's a bandage, and hard to tell if she is 14.

Google found the picture, it's the cover for a song Little Debbie. The band is Surgery, so it could be a bandage (but that doesn't tell us anything about her age !)

Well, I can think of quite a few things, and raising a kid you get a pretty good sense of what is different now, but for one we actually hung out at arcades and played pinball, which is what started this little conversation before it got sidetracked.

There are social scientists who are saying now that, kids are so protected now that they don't understand problem resolution. They need to have an adult fix everything for them, rather than fix it within their peer group. This is leading to big problems as this generation of kids grow up. It's a very interesting topic.

https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Generation-ebook/dp/B076NVFT5P

Going on now.

Look how many people asking for help here and get it and respond with "I don't know how".

Basic stuff. Solder, use a meter, check continuity. And with so many resources to learn, even short videos on Youtube.

When I didn't know something, I sat down and figured it out. I didn't ask for help. Didn't even think of asking.

LTG : )

Yes and I can think of quite a few things the other way

Raising a kid now? How old is your daughter...like 25?

Indeed those were good times. Now you can't even put a drink near one of grind it too hard becasue they're all in diaper rubbers basements.

Pic is actually from roger sharpe’s book Pinball! Highly recommended.

Just don’t get anything “gooey” on the pages!