(Topic ID: 226379)

Why Did Pinball Die In The 1990s?

By SantaEatsCheese

5 years ago


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    There are 213 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 5.
    #51 5 years ago
    Quoted from RatShack:

    I remember people lining up to play the latest Street Fighter 2 or Mortal Kombat, but never saw anyone waiting to play Addams Family or Twilight Zone.

    Sadly it still happens today. My friends came to my home last Saturday with their kids. They were lining up to play NBA Jam as well as OutRun. No kids wanted to play pinball that included their parents. I were trying to teach them how to play pinball but they all lost interest very quickly.

    #52 5 years ago
    Quoted from Pinrookie:

    Sadly it still happens today. My friends came to my home last Saturday with their kids. They were lining up to play NBA Jam as well as OutRun. No kids wanted to play pinball that included their parents. I were trying to teach them how to play pinball but they all lost interest very quickly.

    In the cargument terms pinabll is the stick shift (manual transmission) among the automatic transmissions of the world.

    #53 5 years ago
    Quoted from modfather:

    Nintendo killed it for the pinball industry. With plenty of games to play sitting on the living room , Momma didnt have to drive you to the gameroom with a pocket full of quarters. Once Sony playstation hit the market, it looked just as good as the arcade versions. Mortal Kombat was Hot because of the ultra violence it delivered and kids ate it up. It looked and played just as good as the arcade version, thus saving plenty of quarters for me. Pinballs didnt deliver the blood and gore kids really clammered for. Plus the really good players would post up and challenge any new comers, and get destroyed within minutes. To rub in the insulting defeat, FATALITY !! ..and rip your spine clean out of your body.

    Just to add to that...MK2 was incredible on Super Nintendo!

    #54 5 years ago
    Quoted from rai:

    In the cargument terms pinabll is the stick shift (manual transmission) among the automatic transmissions of the world.

    In 'Merica, not the world.

    -1
    #55 5 years ago
    Quoted from rai:

    In the cargument terms pinabll is the stick shift (manual transmission) among the automatic transmissions of the world.

    Very well said!

    #56 5 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    In 'Merica, not the world.

    Touché.

    In USA less than 4% cars sold with MT in Europe said to be 80%.

    My two personal cars are manual and I used to own a car that was *only* sold with MT (S2000).

    #57 5 years ago

    Easy. They built them too good. So many bonafide hits were created in that short period of time that still earn legit money 20+ year later. Titles from then were built more durable than ever so they looked better longer than ever before. So take those 2 things and the fact that operators do not replace games that make money and it turned into a disaster by the late 90s.

    #58 5 years ago

    Another piece is supply and demand. It is hard to believe now, but before tablets, phones etc. The demand was low. Digital pinball exposed tons of new people to the hobby who in turn wanted the real thing. In the 90's and early 2000's games were everywhere and dirt cheap. Having multiple companies all battling for the small markets dollar is why the early 90's is a golden era with stellar quality and games.

    #59 5 years ago
    Quoted from rai:

    In the cargument terms pinabll is the stick shift (manual transmission) among the automatic transmissions of the world.

    This makes even less sense than your average cargument.

    I’m trying to massage this into something coherent...uhh..I think EM games would be the stick shift in this equation?

    #60 5 years ago

    The last nail in the cargument coffin already happened. Every argument now will be decided by picking a Beatle and talking aboot how they all jerked off together.

    Oh haven't you heard yet?

    #61 5 years ago
    Quoted from spazzman90:

    Easy. They built them too good. So many bonafide hits were created in that short period of time that still earn legit money 20+ year later. Titles from then were built more durable than ever so they looked better longer than ever before. So take those 2 things and the fact that operators do not replace games that make money and it turned into a disaster by the late 90s.

    Reminds me of the "Diamond Plate Killed Pinball" theory which does make sense!

    Forced obsolescence is how companies like Apple hit 1 trillion market caps.

    #62 5 years ago

    Simplest explanation is that the cost of VDUs (and large ones at that) and computing power (particularly graphics chips) fell dramatically.

    They've continued to fall in price relative to mechanical stuff and things built from wood, metal and plastic ever since. Silicon and LCDs are cheap and reliable.

    #63 5 years ago
    Quoted from HighProtein:

    Who else was addicted to fps like me in the 90s? Doom 1 and 2, Quake 1, 2 and 3? Great bang for buck gaming vs arcade/pinball then.
    If a Quake or Doom pinball were made, yeah I would have ventured to play them.

    And, don’t forget the Duke!

    When we first saw Doom, we damn neared peed our pants and fainted we were so excited. Doom was it man. It was a level a thousand times higher than anything before. So awesome. I still play it to this day.

    And later in the 90s Half Life set the bar so high it hasn’t been beaten since.

    #64 5 years ago
    Quoted from Pinrookie:

    Sadly it still happens today. My friends came to my home last Saturday with their kids. They were lining up to play NBA Jam as well as OutRun. No kids wanted to play pinball that included their parents. I were trying to teach them how to play pinball but they all lost interest very quickly.

    I was gonna ask if you had any EMs in your collection, but then I remembered I can actually look at what you have listed. Much easier to get people interested in pinball when you have easier games. EBD hooked me. Bally Freedom hooked two of my friends.

    If you want people to like a game, they need to feel a sense of accomplishment. Tight shots and complex/cryptic rules are a newbie's worst enemies.

    #65 5 years ago
    Quoted from chad:

    Cassettes coming back to.

    In a fringey way other than the TNA soundtrack.

    #66 5 years ago
    Quoted from xsvtoys:

    And, don’t forget the Duke!
    When we first saw Doom, we damn neared peed our pants and fainted we were so excited. Doom was it man. It was a level a thousand times higher than anything before. So awesome. I still play it to this day.
    And later in the 90s Half Life set the bar so high it hasn’t been beaten since.

    I was a BBS kid, duke didn't make a good multiplayer game but was groovy.

    #67 5 years ago
    Quoted from xsvtoys:

    And, don’t forget the Duke!
    When we first saw Doom, we damn neared peed our pants and fainted we were so excited. Doom was it man. It was a level a thousand times higher than anything before. So awesome. I still play it to this day.
    And later in the 90s Half Life set the bar so high it hasn’t been beaten since.

    Counter-Strike !!! Played for years, and I was good!

    #68 5 years ago

    Poor Sega. Not only did they push the advances of early broadband and streaming services with the Sega Channel (did anyone else have this? It was awesome!), but lost out in the home console wars despite putting out some pretty impressive hardware and getting to market first in the next gen with the Dreamcast. Other than maybe Atari, I can't think of any other companies that competed in BOTH the home and vid/pin space at that time or any. I'm not a businessman but I can't imagine enabling the home market to thrive was too good for the coin-op biz.

    Not directly related, but it's a piece of fascinating history since the spirit of Sega pinball survived in the form of Stern, which thrives today.

    #69 5 years ago
    Quoted from HighProtein:

    In a fringey way other than the TNA soundtrack.

    Super fringey.

    The cassette comeback, as tiny and limited as it is, is one of the dumbest in pop culture history.

    Cassettes sound terrible, are easily prone to damage, and have the worst artwork display format save I guess the minidisc? I simply cannot fathom what about them would appeal to real or imagined nostalgia.

    There was never an 8-track comeback when I was younger, for the same reasons. I guess all the old guys are rignt when they say kids ARE dumber than ever!

    #70 5 years ago

    WE CAN WORK IT OUTWE CAN WORK IT OUT

    #71 5 years ago

    The home console videogame market has basically caught up in terms of technology to what arcade manufacturers were able to produce. That was the beginning of the end for arcades as we knew them in the 70's, 80's & early 90's. Once you could play an arcade perfect port on a home console like Sony's PlayStation it was the beginning of the end for the classic arcades as we knew them. All of a sudden you had an arcade manufacturer like NAMCO jump ship to the home console market and fully support PlayStation with arcade perfect ports of games like Ridge Racer and many others the writing was on the wall. Pinball gave way to videogames in the late 70's and had a bit of a resurgence in the early 90's with the DMD games however arcade were starting to really loose market-share to the console industry. Even as the technology for pinball continued to move forward with Pinball 2000 the rapidly decaying arcade marketplace also negatively effected the pinball market. Now most arcades are all ticket redemption machines and skee ball.....and that is what kids today will remember as arcades. Of course you have Dave & Busters today with the remnants of the late Williams arcade games in the form of Raw Thrills but it'll never be like it was in the 80's & early 90's.

    12
    #72 5 years ago

    Don't forget the economics going on.

    First 50¢ a game pin 1981 Black Knight. 1991 the price per play should have gone up to 75¢ a game to have the same buying power. According to the US Government cost of living indexes. The price per play didn't go up.

    Ops were losing ground, and I think many like me didn't know why. Rent goes up, utilities goes up, food goes up, but we were taking in good numbers, not realizing the money coming in was buying less. We were losing ground.

    Ops start buying less. Distributors start ordering less. Manufacturers start building less. By 1995 we were on the roller coaster to hell. And all the kings horses and all the kings men, could never make pinball what it once was ever again.

    Pinball exists today at 10% give or take of it's former glory. The only thing really improved today is because of the collectors/hobby. There are way more parts available today than in the mid 1990's when things were rolling.

    LTG : )

    -1
    #73 5 years ago

    Difficult to maintain games and "old school" lazy operators didn't help

    #74 5 years ago
    Quoted from pinaholic:

    "old school" lazy operators didn't help

    Then where's all the young motivated operators??? Oh yea there aren't any.

    #75 5 years ago

    Where is xTheBlacKnightx ? I'm pretty sure he could write a book on this topic.

    #76 5 years ago

    My quarters started going here in the 80s. The restaurant that my friends and I hung out at switched over to video games, and we started dumping our quarters into them. That started a 20 year affair with video games. I never even thought about owning pins until I walked into my girlfriend’s brother’s basement and he had a couple pins. And then my new addiction started.

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    #77 5 years ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    My quarters started going here in the 80s. The restaurant that my friends and I hung out at switched over to video games, and we started dumping our quarters into them. That started a 20 year affair with video games. I never even thought about owning pins until I walked into my girlfriend’s brother’s basement and he had a couple pins. And then my new addiction started.
    [quoted image]

    Same here, arcades in my area growing did not have pins. About the only place you could find a pin in my area was the kwik shop or 7-11. All the bars had them but there was that whole age problem! Lot of pac-man, Donkey Kong and all the other classics is where all my quarters went! Wasn't till my father bought a pin back in the mid 90's did I start getting into them!

    10
    #78 5 years ago

    A new school Operator

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    #79 5 years ago

    No pinball boom has ever lasted more than 10 years. Games were more complicated and pricier than ever in an economy that was just trudging along.

    P2K didn't help. Players I knew including myself thought they were a novelty at best even though they got decent coin drop, and a few of the last real games being released like Cactus Canyon were lackluster at best, with bare bones code and bugs that were not being addressed or updated so players were not wasting money on them and sticking with older games that they knew worked.

    #80 5 years ago

    Much like the Terminator movie. A good pin head travelled back in time to kill pinball while it was still great to prevent terminator Kaneda and terminator Whysnow from terrorizing the hobby. Unfortunately, they did not succeed.
    However, they did manage to manipulate terminator, Gary Stern in to survival and grow the hobby. So, in the end it did work for pinball! Long live the new pinball!

    #81 5 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I simply cannot fathom what about them would appeal to real or imagined nostalgia.

    pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
    #82 5 years ago

    The US dollar was fairly weak in late 80’s early 90’s. Production for pins made in Chicago were huge driven by huge exports.

    In 1995 the EU forced the CE mark on all electronics and prices to sell a pin over seas rose. At the same time the US dollar got strong. Europe was stuffed with great pins from the early 90’s. Importers from the US brought great games like TAF, IJ, TZ, and others back to the states and people bought these over new games as they were less than half the price.

    So, manufacturers were cutting cost and having to compete with what they sold just a few years earlier.
    It took over a decade to work out this excess inventory from the early 90’s.
    Here we are today

    #83 5 years ago

    Think about it if you could buy an IJ, SC, TAF, Next Gen for $2k how many new Sterns would you buy. Not nearly as many
    That was the market in early 2k, and new games like Harley, first, second, third were much more $$. Was an easy choice

    #84 5 years ago

    All of the above plus Home Personal Computers hitting the scene....

    #85 5 years ago

    On the video side game comes out and say 3 months later it arrives in home version. Operator never has a chance to try to get his roi .

    #86 5 years ago
    Quoted from xsvtoys:

    And, don’t forget the Duke!
    When we first saw Doom, we damn neared peed our pants and fainted we were so excited. Doom was it man. It was a level a thousand times higher than anything before. So awesome. I still play it to this day.
    And later in the 90s Half Life set the bar so high it hasn’t been beaten since.

    Doom was a game changer, but Wolfenstein 3D was what started it for me. ID software RULED!

    I remember playing Wolfy 3D on my 386DX-40 back in the day, then DOOM came out & I had to play it in a tiny shrunk down screensize to get it to play at a decent frame rate. Finished it though... them's were the days!

    #87 5 years ago

    It died because I bought all the pinball machines to horde in my massive collection.

    #88 5 years ago

    I wonder if some 20 years in the future someone might initiate a forum topic “Why did redemption games die in the 2010s ?”

    Well I hope that’s what they write because I can’t wait for those awful machines to all be buried in a landfill.

    #89 5 years ago

    On the flip side the question is why are arcades and pinball coming back.

    My take:
    1. Nostalgia
    2. Offering something you can’t replicate on a home television... novelty

    That is to say video games on a PS4 box are now all acquiring a sameness to them. Dare I say perhaps owners are getting a little bored ?

    Perhaps back then an arcade and even pinball were sorta “been there, done that”. Novelty got lost.

    When I built my current arcade of course I got the standard Asteroids, Dig Dug and Pac Man (see nostalgia above). But really you could just get the same on a PS4 emulator.

    In addition I got all sorts games with unique controllers (fishing rod, steering wheels, dance pads, claws, guns, trackballs, spinners, 4 player). And I got lots of pinball machines because no video version of this is close to reality.

    For now that offers something different. And I think that’s why people come. Eventually though novelty and nostalgia may both wear off and we go back to no arcades and little in way of public pinball. Hope not, but won’t be unexpected if it happens again.

    #90 5 years ago
    Quoted from Gunske:

    Watch barcades, now popular, but wait when people realize that for the amount of money you put in a pin, you can have a couple of extra drinks. Some places in belgium ask 1.5€/3ball game... The 5-6k pin must be payed.

    Where is a good place to play in Belgium?
    I go to Brussels once a year and the only thing I could find were pinball machines that were some kind of gambling machine and they told me you had to be a resident to gamble.

    #91 5 years ago

    I don't know what's wrong with you Doom-playing weirdos. I always liked pinball and never forsook it for some dumb PC game!!

    11
    #92 5 years ago

    Pinball could die again if they don't stop making dinosaur themes like Munsters and Grandpa Rock Bands.

    We need more young designers like Scott and Eric.

    #93 5 years ago
    Quoted from benheck:

    Pinball could die again if they don't stop making dinosaur themes like Munsters and Grandpa Rock Bands.
    We need more young designers like Scott and Eric.

    Nah. Pinball will not die, obviously. If it survived 1982-1985 and 1998-2010 it can survive Aerosmith.

    Absolutely unkillable. Tired of hearing otherwise when it's obviously bullshit. The theory is just a springboard for the usual tired side-rants.

    #94 5 years ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    Few different reasons.
    First was Got. after releasing Barb Wire.
    It slowly died. Look at the production numbers for machines form the late 90's. Most of them are much lower numbers from one year to the next.
    Then B/W shut down because the guy running things essentially hated pinball.
    He wanted to focus on slot machines, a much better selling product. So they shut down the pinball division.
    Sega morphed into Stern and to be honest, the first few years Stern was open was not the best years they had. No one even knew if they were going to survive to year #2. They had Harley Davidson (and holding on to South Park) as a solid license and that's about it.
    To be honest, if you look at raw numbers, we have still not come anywhere close to the production year of 1998, in which there were over 20K machines sold across Sega, Midway/Williams in a single year. That will NEVER happen again. Never.
    Big business likes guarantees and products that could never lose money. If you look at Sega/Stern in 1999/2000, there were zero guarantees. Gary kept it going as well as he could and a few talented designers and programmers pulled it from the ashes.

    The death was a little more protracted than that.

    Data East wanted out in the early 90's and sold their part to sega who had been a stakeholder from the start. Sega thought they could maintain by cutting costs as can be seen by their going to the normal sized dmd, showcase 1 and 2 experiments, and through reduced bom. Sega saw the writing on the wall during the late 90's and sold out to Stern who had been running the company. They sold out during south park which was outselling mm at the time.

    Alvin G failed trying to be the cheapest and frankly their experiments failed to sell well. Leading with the head 2 head games which have never done well, attempting redemption games with Dinosaur Eggs and punchy, before finally going with traditional pinball. If they had started with traditional pinball they might have lasted longer but would have still most likely have gone under within a few years. Keep in mind they made mystery in fall 93, pistol starting november, and by 94 were dead. Only al's had time to build and market making about 900 which is similar to capcom in 95/96 when the market was in decline.

    Capcom took too long to market. If they had gotten in earlier and not had python building zingy bingy which scared off capcom's japanese leaders they would have lasted longer, but still failed due to declining sales. This would have happened with or without williams pressuring distributors to not buy capcoms.

    Premier/Gottlieb had a reputation for terrible games both from a reliability standpoint and a ruleset standpoint going back to system 80b. Their 3 month development cycle where everything was done in parallel and lack of updates post release made their games very hit or miss. They latched on to theming their machine off existing ips and it probably kept them alive much longer than it would otherwise. It did have the side effect that if they bet on the wrong ip they would run into a sales problem.

    This is all background and doesn't really explain why the market declined and to that end what really changed was the cost of video game development. In the 70's arcades were top dog. In the 80's consoles exploded, imploded, and came back but arcades were still top dog. This lasted through the mid 90's and then something changed. In the 80's a single person could code a console or arcade game in a short timeframe. By the 90's arcade games now required teams but since consoles couldn't pull off anything close to the power and thus experience there was still a draw to arcades. By the mid 90's consoles and the pc market lagged behind power wise by a number of years, but in order to maintain a lead arcade games required too many resources to justify while consoles ensured better sales.

    Major video game makers started cannibalizing their arcades by porting to less powerful systems. You also see it pre-planned by releasing more arcade hardware that was console based with hardware tweaks. Compare Virtua fighter to its console incarnations. Then compare soul caliber to its console ports. The incentive to go the arcade was gone. Arcades died out and a large market for pins died out. This is without even going into the issues of pinball maintenance or the fact that the public has a problem with paying more than a dollar to play a game despite inflation.

    #95 5 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    P2K didn't help. Players I knew including myself thought they were a novelty at best even though they got decent coin drop, and a few of the last real games being released like Cactus Canyon were lackluster at best, with bare bones code and bugs that were not being addressed or updated so players were not wasting money on them and sticking with older games that they knew worked.

    I find myself in the startling position of being in disagreement with you on this one, which may be a first for me. We operate an arcade in our soft serve ice cream restaurant which is very busy during the summer season. We typically have run around 10 or so pins at a time and I can tell you there has never been a title in that room that has made more than the 2 PB2K machines. And honestly the worst thought of title (STE1) out earns everything else. And we have had some A list stuff pass through, games that are worth triple on the collector market and they still don't compare to the coin drop on STE1.

    Personally I think if WMS had stuck around to make more titles it could have been a game-changer for pinball. We will never know now.

    #96 5 years ago

    What killed pinball for us was three things.

    #1. Being able to go to 7-11 and play pinball and hangout stopped happening.
    Vendors just put in video games and pinball was dead for the 18 and under crowd.
    Eventually the pulled those to.
    This killed comic book sales at 7-11 to . Interesting

    #2. Cost of pinball went from 25cents to 50cents a play. This was cost prohibitive to us
    3.75 or whatever minimum wage crowd. Rather play video game for 25 cents and not drain ball with better sound on stand up games.
    Sensory experience just not happening at 7-11 in full sunlight.

    #3. Operators started turning down the sound on the cool games. This still peeves me to no end. If I can't hear it I don't play it
    Taking away most of the sensory experience from playing really made me pause before dropping money.

    I think not being able to become immersed in games sounds is the #1 thing killing pinball. There has to be a solution to this

    #97 5 years ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    #3. Operators started turning down the sound on the cool games. This still peeves me to no end. If I can't hear it I don't play it
    Taking away most of the sensory experience from playing really made me pause before dropping money.
    I think not being able to become immersed in games sounds is the #1 thing killing pinball. There has to be a solution to this

    Spot on ! I played JJPPOTC last week at a location, the sound could barely be heard, and it really killed a lot of my excitment, after watching a bunch of live videos.

    #98 5 years ago
    Quoted from timab2000:

    Music is still around........but LP's are gone (or going maybe making a comeback), Cd's are gone, Cassette are gone. But people found a better way of playing it. I guess that was my point.

    http://www.thefader.com/2018/01/03/2017-was-the-highest-year-for-vinyl-sales-since-1991

    Vinyl sales in 2017 were the highest since 1991 when Nielsen started tracking them. "This is the 12th year in a row vinyl sales have increased, jumping 9 percent from 2016."

    hipsters love their vinyl, but i doubt most of them ever listen to them

    #99 5 years ago

    Let me add some perspective, as a GenX'er.
    I didn't seriously play a pinball until I hit college. I can't remember seeing more than a handful in my life up until then. I can say that the Aladdin's Castles and such didn't have any pinballs when I was growing up in the 80s. I was married in college, and my wife got bored one night bowling and wanted to play pinball. Low and behold, I was introduced to Scared Stiff, and I'm still infatuated.
    Even in the 90s, in a college student union arcade room with tons of cutting edge games, those pinballs had lines, often up until they shut the power off each night. We chased our favorites as the operator moved them from bar to bar. The only time that wasn't happening was when the operator left them broken.
    Fast forward to a few years ago. I played when I found machines, but I was still recovering from the tech bubble, and I couldn't afford big toys. When I hit the Bay area, I was surrounded by games. And, with a few notable exceptions, they are all earning gangbusters. I have introduced literally dozens of people to pinball, many of whom never touched one before. I can't think of one who found it boring, and many of them have become regular players now.
    So, I don't completely buy the idea that those companies couldn't tap these markets. Maybe so, but from my point of view, pinball disappeared because no one was pushing it to the front of the room. When it wasn't the abandoned, half working wretch in the back corner, it was a star.

    #100 5 years ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    What killed pinball for us was three things.
    #1. Being able to go to 7-11 and play pinball and hangout stopped happening.
    Vendors just put in video games and pinball was dead for the 18 and under crowd.
    Eventually the pulled those to.
    This killed comic book sales at 7-11 to . Interesting
    #2. Cost of pinball went from 25cents to 50cents a play. This was cost prohibitive to us
    3.75 or whatever minimum wage crowd. Rather play video game for 25 cents and not drain ball with better sound on stand up games.
    Sensory experience just not happening at 7-11 in full sunlight.
    #3. Operators started turning down the sound on the cool games. This still peeves me to no end. If I can't hear it I don't play it
    Taking away most of the sensory experience from playing really made me pause before dropping money.
    I think not being able to become immersed in games sounds is the #1 thing killing pinball. There has to be a solution to this

    So 7-11 killed pinball.

    Well, it's a new angle I'll give you that.

    There are 213 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 5.

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