Serious question. Other threads are covering price increase, color and delivery etc so no need to bring these gripes up here.

After their pirates disc and box mech removal debacle, JJP thought it a good idea to remove the monkey mech from WOZ YBR edition.

Was it save money? Why save just a bit if there is such a large increase in price? Was the mech really that expensive?

Was the monkey mech broken? Mine (RR) has always worked fine. If flawed, why not fix after 8 years?

Anyway, I am a JJP fan so not trying to trash for no reason. Just want to know WHY they removed the monkey mech. Serious question.

Your thoughts?

I agree. It makes absolutely no sense to me that they would remove a mech prone to issues on route on a pin that is clearly marketed only for low-play, high end buyers at $11,500.

Does anyone have any insight into this decision?

Even more baffling is that they came up with the YBR monkey removal idea and implemented it AFTER the pirates disc and trunk mech removal PR disaster.

It really is spectacular.

It’s like they think we love mechs being removed. Perhaps, as part of their upcoming WW marketing campaingn, they’ll release a list of removed mechs.

This would have helped for sure. But there is no way to spin the removal of a mech that is part of the theme integration that everyone has seen and played for 8 years. It’s not a prototype disk that didn’t work - it’s a mech we’ve seen working for 8 years. And people went nuts about pirates disk we never played. Here they took away something we already had.

Another point, WOZ to me is the ‘no compromizes’ pin, I mean the wicked witch of the East’s feet pop out of the spinning house. Jack built a business on this principle and this is what JJP is known for. How does this guiding principle sit next to their flagship release having mechs removed instead of fixing them? It’s not Rudy from Funhouse either so are they saying in 8 years the monkey is unfixable? Like the pirates trunk they couldn’t open and close?

JJP should let us know exactly what are they trying to say with YBR.

Just had a thought that no monkey in YBR probably means no monkey in any other future releases of WOZ moving forward.

If that’s the case, then this YBR monkey removal seems even more nuts!! If the mech is flawed then the RR cabs will change but the broken mech is OK for JJPs RR customers! If the mech is not flawed, then why would you remove from YBR unless you had to.

This is madness! JJP, at least inform the pinball community of what is going on here.

How do you know that Ruby Red’s will have the monkey?

Hi Levi, thanks for posting.

So please describe how it makes sense to you that a company who has always stuck firmly to the principle that every version will have the exact gameplay experience, now alternates between releasing multiple versions of their cornerstone pin, with the most expensive elite version having less mechs than the lower version. I’m serious, please respond how this makes sense to you - thanks

Oh and if the mech is flawed, then Levi, how does it makes sense for a company to release pins with the flawed version to some customers and not to others? Remember we are discussing that future RR editions will have the mech.

Your post contains no point. We are discussing a company removing a mech because it is flawed and then reintroducing it as RR in new cab and hardware in the future and whether this makes sense. Or trying to figure out why it makes sense to JJP.

Hi Pinballomatic, thanks for your post. Do you personally feel it’s OK for a company to remove a mech for reliability reasons from one version and include it in other versions that they sell? I think this is the first time for this industry. What is your honest opinion on this Pinballomatic?

I guess not everyone is following the plot here which is OK.

What I’m saying is that when a company removes a mech for reliability reasons they are stating that it is a piece of hardware that does not work and is not good enough to be released to the public. If this is the stance JJP are taking, then they can no longer in good conscience release this mech to the public in the future. I am also saying that this is the first time that a company has suggested they will do this. (Please don’t make me type here that I am advocating for monkey mech removal for RR - that is not at all my point. OK I had to type it)

Otherwise they have to state that it is not defective which is fine. But JJP can’t it both ways at least not with pinball enthusiasts.

FWIW, I'm not talking about price.

jawjaw, thanks for your post.

What are your thoughts on a company removing a mech because of reliability reasons from one version and having another version (RR) that they sell at the same or future time that has the mech?

I'm looking into it deeper than you that's all. Some look one move ahead in chess and others 5, it's just a hobby afterall. I care about the why. What motivated JJP to remove the mech? That is all. I'm just interested that they think it's OK to release one with a flawed mech (they say) and another (RR) with it still in.

Well I thought we could have a discussion about specific topics which is what the point of a thread is in the first place. If you don't give a shit about any of this why are you posting here? I do give a shit - that's why I'm posting.

I always find it interesting how there are those that want to shut down discussion on specific topics. I'm being respectful and asking very specific questions about JJP that's all. Also interesting that those who are in or connected to the industry or have business relationships with JJP offer their unbiased opinions here.

We are discussing (or I'm trying to have a discussion about) whether it's OK for a pinball manufacturer to remove a mech because of reliability reasons from one version (YBR) and then release another version in the future (RR) that has that 'flawed' mech in the game. Above post stated that Jack said that future RR version will have the mech but in new cabs/hardware.

I'm not trying to stir the pot - asking specific questions which you failed to answer or even give your opinion on.

I have a RR and very happy with it. I just love JJP and just concerned about how they are moving forward that's all. That's why we are discussing this.

Your suggestion is that we should not discuss this point and just buy or not buy. This is besides the point and does not further this specific conversation at all. If all you want to do is shut down this conversation and you 'don't give a shit' then move onto another thread.

Perhaps that's a possibility - thanks for your post.

However, because JJP are saying it's for reliability reasons, they can't expect to switch back and forth on it's reliability - one day it's not reliable and then it is reliable...

Surely you would agree that this is at the very least, a very confusing stance for a company to take on an 8 year old mech.

Hi iceman, what are your thoughts on why they removed the mech? For reliability or to save money? Did they run out of monkey mechs? What do you think?

Maybe but look at the cost of redesigning multiple mechs and new code and now having to manage multiple versions of code etc. I can't be worth the cost of that simple hardware - it's not a Rudy head from Funhouse. It goes up and down with two sensors. My point is how can this be worth it in the end?

And with this spectacular hit to their reputation being increasingly know recently as the company that cuts mechs. And the market confusion with some versions having different mechs than others and switching back and forth. Doesn't seem worth it in the end with regard to saving money so that's why it has to be for reliability IMO. I don't know in the end and that's what this thread is about.

Well, you would be right if there was no such thing as a company's reputation or brand or anything to do with advertising or marketing. Your comments completely ignore the fact that consumers have thoughts about products or companies and that those thoughts have impact on their buying decisions. Do you really believe that a company can do anything, make any decisions and they have no impact? You can't be serious.

Of course this is all decided in the end by consumer's wallets - this is saying nothing. We are discussing how JJP's decisions moving forward affect how consumers spend from their wallets and whether these are good decisions or bad decisions.

Hi Yelobird, thanks for your post. I'm asking other pinsider's opinions on a specific question which you didn't answer. Yelobird, do you think it's reasonable for a company to say a mech is defective so remove it from YBR and then in the future release RR editions with what they said was a defective mech? It's a yes or no question and value your opinion. Thanks.

Thanks iceman. With regard to changing gameplay, JJP have been precisely the company that stated they would never do that across different versions of their games (whereas Stern has different gameplay across versions). For example, Jack has stated this as a founding principle of JJP since the beginning and Eric Meunier stated this in his reveal vids for POTC. YBR is the first pin where they are going against this principle.

Let's zoom out for a second. The mechanical theme integration of the plotline where Dorothy is captured and then saved plays out as follows. To get Rescue multiball you must first get Dorothy captured and the monkey mech takes Dorothy away to the castle (actually in hardware so this is what makes this great). The ball is Dorothy and she is actually captured and physically locked in the castle. When she is rescued, the ball is released which makes sense. Now in YBR, all this is taken out with a virtual-lock type implementation I'm presuming. I'm not bashing JJP here, it is a compliment, how fantastic this mechanical theme integration was implemented. I'm saying that it's great so there must be very good reasons why it was taken out. This thread is a discussion of trying to figure out why all this brilliant design was taken out. When JJP would have never considered taking out this mech in the early days of the company (and in fact the first 8 years).

OK, but you have to agree that to go through the trouble of taking a mech out after 8 years means they must at least think there is something left to be desired about the monkey mech.

Again, follow carefully here... the main point is not that the mech was removed but that they removed it for what they said were reliability reasons for YBR, YET are releasing it in future RR versions.

Yelobird, do you think that what I wrote in the preceding sentence is a good plan moving forward for JJP or not? Yes or no

Looking back through your posts, you are answering a different question. Your answer is you like your RR. So do I but that's not what I asked. But that's OK, I understand your conflict of interest here as you are part of the industry.

It is as cosmetic as a virtual ball lock in a Stern pro replacing a physical lock mech in a premium. I guess you could say that but not sure everyone would agree that virtual ball locks vs physical are 'cosmetic'.

We're over a 100 posts in and you are one of the few pinsiders who posted some actual content. Others either didn't understand the the questions, were in the industry (so can't post their opinions anyway), posted pics of monkeys or just that "they don't care about anything either way" or telling me to stop the discussion. Frustrating but I guess I'm learning more about lowering expectations here on pinside - sheesh!

Anyway, your post was a breath of fresh air so thanks.

What do others think? Do you think they ran out of monkeys? But then what about the posts stating that future RR's will have the mechs installed? Maybe by then they will have the mechs again. Not sure. Any other pinsiders have any inside info on this? It's definitely possible.

Thanks for confirming this.

Since I think this is the first time in the history of pinball (that I know of) that a company selectively pulling out and later putting back in a mech over stretches of time, what are your thoughts about the optics of this for pinball enthusiasts who follow the hobby?

Will Levi finally admit his posts contain only criticisms about the fact that people are discussing stuff as well as wanting to shut down the conversation? There is no content in your posts regarding this thread, no opinions. Find another thread as we are striving to have an actual conversation here.

The point is, and you're missing it again (sorry), is that JJP are implying that they removed the monkey from YBR for reliability reasons. If that is the case, then why would they later accept it being in the RR?

Ha, thanks for typing in your viewpoint. I understand where you’re coming from now.

OK, so the monkey mech was not removed by JJP because of maintenance. Let’s go with that for the sake of discussion. Mine (RR) has always worked fine so I’m inclined to go along with that.

So then why do you think they removed it from YBR?

Thanks, see here again we’re back to the monkey being removed because of reliability issues. I did think JJP were implying that - it was written on their info poster.

An important post that seems like the best explanation so far about why JJP removed the monkey from YBR:

Since JJP didn’t just come clean about this, we JJP fans had to bash our heads against the wall for awhile in bewilderment.

This reason makes the most sense in light of the fact that future RR will have the monkey put back in. But then this would mean that those future RR versions will not be in the new pat lawlor cabs. Which means they will make old cabs again in the future? Then why not make old cabs for YBR? Who knows?

I’m guessing from the inside this all makes perfect sense but certainly this is leading to a lot of confusion from the perspective of an enthusiast like myself.

Better than saying they removed the monkey for reliability reasons and that future RRs will have the unreliable monkey back in.

Agree, just tell the truth unless you think a few moves ahead to make sure that the consequences of not telling the truth don't lead to even more confusion and inconsistencies. JJP did not think this YBR release through - very rushed with no thought to how it would affect their brand down the road. Business is like chess, short-term moves may look great but even good short-term moves can have negative long-term consequences sometimes so think this stuff through.

Anyway, hopefully WW happiness will just wash this all away in the near future.

The mystery continues...

The monkey mech doesn’t fit in the new cabinets yet will be released as RR in the new cabinets