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(Topic ID: 239460)

Why did JJP remove the monkey on WOZ YBR?


By spinal

1 year ago



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  • 148 posts
  • 67 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by VolunteerPin
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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There are 148 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.
#101 1 year ago
Quoted from spinal:

OK, but you have to agree that to go through the trouble of taking a mech out after 8 years means they must at least think there is something left to be desired about the monkey mech.
Again, follow carefully here... the main point is not that the mech was removed but that they removed it for reliability reasons YET are releasing it in future RR versions.
Yelobird, do you think that that what I wrote in the preceding sentence is a good plan moving forward for JJP or not? Yes or no

As I said several times it feels more like your trying to Sell me and others Your opinion. I gave mine, you gave yours seems like not much to debate? I like my RR and that was my decision.

#102 1 year ago

I don't buy the "monkey is unreliable" line from JJP. WOZ has been out for 7 years and all of sudden the mech is unreliable? Come on. Maybe for some route owners with 50k plays on their games but YBR isn't targeted to be a routed game. The decision to remove the mech doesn't make any sense unless it was a cost reason. Same goes for YBR not coming with a mirrored backglass.

If anything I think the removal of the money mech from YBR may signal the shift to future JJP pins being slightly scaled down back in terms of features.

#103 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

As we don’t have any Factual information on why they removed it I will vote “yes” I am fine with the company making a product change that will make the game more reliable.

Quoted from Yelobird:

As I said several times it feels more like your trying to Sell me and others Your opinion. I gave mine, you gave yours seems like not much to debate? I like my RR and that was my decision.

Looking back through your posts, you are answering a different question. Your answer is you like your RR. So do I but that's not what I asked. But that's OK, I understand your conflict of interest here as you are part of the industry.

#104 1 year ago
Quoted from spinal:

Thanks iceman. With regard to changing gameplay, JJP have been precisely the company that stated they would never do that across different versions of their games (whereas Stern has different gameplay across versions). For example, Jack has stated this as a founding principle of JJP since the beginning and Eric Meunier stated this in his reveal vids for POTC. YBR is the first pin where they are going against this principle.

But does removing the monkey actually affect game play at all? I haven't played so don't know, but from what I've been hearing on podcasts and reading on Pindside I thought this was effectively a cosmetic change.

#105 1 year ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

But does removing the monkey actually affect game play at all? I haven't played so don't know, but from what I've been hearing on podcasts and reading on Pindside I thought this was effectively a cosmetic change.

It is as cosmetic as a virtual ball lock in a Stern pro replacing a physical lock mech in a premium. I guess you could say that but not sure everyone would agree that virtual ball locks vs physical are 'cosmetic'.

#106 1 year ago

Think of this:

POTC was too costly and problematic, so they had cabinets (widebody) that were originally supposed to be for POTC. They’ve also talked about having millions tied up in spare parts (possibly WOZ). There were no monkey mechs left and having more done might be too costly for a small run, so they shitcanned it. Did a small custom run on armor, pf, and rascals, etc. Presto...one last and final cash grab on WOZ. This also keeps the line going very profitably until WW.

It only makes sense for removing the monkey. WOZ will probably never see another RR run, but Jack seems like he can’t say no when he’s put on the spot.

#107 1 year ago

So I have been following the WOZ fan club for a bit and have seen outside of light boards the number of problems related to the doors as being number 1 and the Monkey number 2 - with that being said the number of issues is very low. I also assume that this game is being sold to non pin folks than others games so they are going for the collector who does not play but when they do can't take off the glass so they are bulletproofing the design a tad more, going for the cash grab and calling it a day.

#108 1 year ago
Quoted from adol75:

What if they simply couldn’t get monkeys delivered on time, had an empty production line and needed to sell machines quickly to keep the business going.

As good of a guess as anyone's at this point.

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

The decision to remove the mech doesn't make any sense unless it was a cost reason.

I think they've got any associated costs under control with the $2K price increase!

Quoted from flynnibus:

It makes no sense to remove it from YBR, but keep it in a later RR run that is getting engineering updates as well. Re-running RR and saying so.. only stands to stall YBR sales which are priced way higher.

I told Jack I was interested in YBR, that I wanted the new cabinet and hardware upgrades, but that I couldn't quite pull the trigger because of the missing monkey and, without having seen it in person, unsure about whether it was going to end up looking like a flaming banana (as per some of the comments here on Pinside). That's when he told me that they'd be doing another run of Ruby Reds, with the new hardware, and the monkey, and that I could wait for one of those. He did not mention a specific timeframe, just that it would be sometime later this year. I asked if this was something he wanted me to stay quiet about, but he gave me no indication that I needed to keep anything a secret. I'd have to watch the TPF reveal again, but Jack may have mentioned more Ruby Reds during that as well. I do agree that this info could stall YBR sales. In my case, I'm at least waiting to see how it goes with Wonka before making a final decision on YBR vs RR.

Quoted from fosaisu:

But does removing the monkey actually affect game play at all?.

This is something I asked Jack about, too. I was told they were going to try to get some gameplay video out shortly. In truth, I'm surprised that no one at TPF saw fit to film anything other than a few flyovers of the glitter. Everyone on here is up in arms about the monkey, yet no one filmed anything having to do with the little guy?! LOL!

#109 1 year ago
Quoted from billyboy:

Think of this:
POTC was too costly and problematic, so they had cabinets (widebody) that were originally supposed to be for POTC. They’ve also talked about having millions tied up in spare parts (possibly WOZ). There were no monkey mechs left and having more done might be too costly for a small run, so they shitcanned it. Did a small custom run on armor, pf, and rascals, etc. Presto...one last and final cash grab on WOZ. This also keeps the line going very profitably until WW.
It only makes sense for removing the monkey. WOZ will probably never see another RR run, but Jack seems like he can’t say no when he’s put on the spot.

We're over a 100 posts in and you are one of the few pinsiders who posted some actual content. Others either didn't understand the the questions, were in the industry (so can't post their opinions anyway), posted pics of monkeys or just that "they don't care about anything either way" or telling me to stop the discussion. Frustrating but I guess I'm learning more about lowering expectations here on pinside - sheesh!

Anyway, your post was a breath of fresh air so thanks.

What do others think? Do you think they ran out of monkeys? But then what about the posts stating that future RR's will have the mechs installed? Maybe by then they will have the mechs again. Not sure. Any other pinsiders have any inside info on this? It's definitely possible.

#110 1 year ago

Does anybody like asking questions more than spinal? Do you think he's getting the answers he wants? Will JJP bow to this rhetorical pressure and reinstate the monkey?

#111 1 year ago
Quoted from Amused_to_Death:

That's when <Jack> told me that they'd be doing another run of Ruby Reds, with the new hardware, and the monkey, and that I could wait for one of those. He did not mention a specific timeframe, just that it would be sometime later this year.

Thanks for confirming this.

Since I think this is the first time in the history of pinball (that I know of) that a company selectively pulling out and later putting back in a mech over stretches of time, what are your thoughts about the optics of this for pinball enthusiasts who follow the hobby?

#112 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Does anybody like asking questions more than spinal? Do you think he's getting the answers he wants? Will JJP bow to this rhetorical pressure and reinstate the monkey?

Will Levi finally admit his posts contain only criticisms about the fact that people are discussing stuff as well as wanting to shut down the conversation? There is no content in your posts regarding this thread, no opinions. Find another thread as we are striving to have an actual conversation here.

#113 1 year ago
Quoted from spinal:

Since I think this is the first time in the history of pinball (that I know of) that a company selectively pulling out and later putting back in a mech over stretches of time

But that's not what they're doing. I know you see it that way, but I don't. Ruby Red has always had the monkey. They'd have to produce a number of Ruby Reds without the monkey and then put it back in to line up with your thinking. YBR and RR are two different products. One has glitter, the other has a monkey. Choose your poison. Or choose nothing. End of argument.

#114 1 year ago
Quoted from Amused_to_Death:

But that's not what they're doing. I know you see it that way, but I don't. Ruby Red has always had the monkey. They'd have to produce a number of Ruby Reds without the monkey and then put it back in to line up with your thinking. YBR and RR are two different products. One has glitter, the other has a monkey. Choose your poison. Or choose nothing. End of argument.

The point is, and you're missing it again (sorry), is that JJP are implying that they removed the monkey from YBR for reliability reasons. If that is the case, then why would they later accept it being in the RR?

#115 1 year ago
Quoted from spinal:

Again, follow carefully here... the main point is not that the mech was removed but that they removed it for what they said were reliability reasons for YBR, YET are releasing it in future RR versions.

Let's hope the YBR is the final version of this game, period. I love WOZ and know Jack does too, but I think there are enough flavors to go around. Time to focus on other things.

#116 1 year ago
Quoted from spinal:

The point is, and you're missing it again

I’m not missing your point. I just don’t agree with it.

Jack has not actually said why the monkey is missing in YBR, by the way. He’s made jokes about the monkey being a pain in his side, but he has not expressly stated anything about it being a maintenance concern. I got the same joke from him, nothing new.

#117 1 year ago
Quoted from Amused_to_Death:

I'd have to watch the TPF reveal again, but Jack may have mentioned more Ruby Reds during that as well

I was there.. he didn't.

If they really are to build more RR... I'd expect it to be like 10.5 or 11k. They can't undercut their even limited YBR run with a full featured version for 2k less that simply doesn't have the flecked PF, apron, and different color.

#118 1 year ago
Quoted from Amused_to_Death:

Jack has not actually said why the monkey is missing in YBR, by the way. He’s made jokes about the monkey being a pain in his side, but he has not expressly stated anything about it being a maintenance concern. I got the same joke from him, nothing new.

Except the reasons for the engineering changes were mentioned as to improve reliability and service... and they elaborated on tales of pain about the doors and switches.

#119 1 year ago

The monkey was individually stupid and bad, so they shipped it off to Smokery Farms. You will feel no guilt when you soak him in milk and feed him to your children. Monkey problems are a thing of the past.

#120 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

If they really are to build more RR... I'd expect it to be like 10.5 or 11k. They can't undercut their even limited YBR run with a full featured version for 2k less that simply doesn't have the flecked PF, apron, and different color.

Agreed. I didn’t ask if the price would be going up; I assumed it would be.

#121 1 year ago
Quoted from Amused_to_Death:

I’m not missing your point. I just don’t agree with it.
Jack has not actually said why the monkey is missing in YBR, by the way. He’s made jokes about the monkey being a pain in his side, but he has not expressly stated anything about it being a maintenance concern. I got the same joke from him, nothing new.

Ha, thanks for typing in your viewpoint. I understand where you’re coming from now.

OK, so the monkey mech was not removed by JJP because of maintenance. Let’s go with that for the sake of discussion. Mine (RR) has always worked fine so I’m inclined to go along with that.

So then why do you think they removed it from YBR?

#122 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Except the reasons for the engineering changes were mentioned as to improve reliability and service... and they elaborated on tales of pain about the doors and switches.

Thanks, see here again we’re back to the monkey being removed because of reliability issues. I did think JJP were implying that - it was written on their info poster.

#123 1 year ago

fargo.gif
"There's more to life than a little monkey, you know. Don't you know that? And here ya are, and it's a beautiful day. Well, I just don't understand it."

#124 1 year ago

Well I’ll send someone my old monkey when I install Steve Gs monkey!

You gotta love some monkey

#125 1 year ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

If anything I think the removal of the money mech from YBR may signal the shift to future JJP pins being slightly scaled down back in terms of features.

I'm sure JJP is watching to see what the reaction is (sales wise)... can they remove features and charge more? If it turns out the answer is yes, them I think we all know what the future holds.

#126 1 year ago
Quoted from Amused_to_Death:

Incorrect. JJ is planning to make more Ruby Reds, with monkeys, later this year. They will be in the new cabinets, with the updated hardware, etc.
knowing this is making it hard for me to choose. I like the backglass, art blades, glitter, and apron on YBR, but I really don’t want to give up the monkey.
Jack needs to do a YBR+ version!

That's next. He will market a 2 monkey version in Red and Yellow with Gold flaked monkey's. It's gone silly!!!.... Actually I heard PETA was pissed for having locked up Monkey's in pinball machines. LOL!!!

#127 1 year ago

An important post that seems like the best explanation so far about why JJP removed the monkey from YBR:

Quoted from Ballypinball:

My take on YBR and monkey
The Cabinets being used are the new cabinets used on Pirates and DI, the Pat Lawlor designed ones
And guess what, the monkey mech doesn't fit, no way there is room for it.
Probably uses the longer Dialed in Pirates legs as well?
Why touch what isn't broke no idea, but this would be the real reason
How do I know this, I was bored and put a WOZ playfield in a pirates cabinet

#128 1 year ago

Since JJP didn’t just come clean about this, we JJP fans had to bash our heads against the wall for awhile in bewilderment.

This reason makes the most sense in light of the fact that future RR will have the monkey put back in. But then this would mean that those future RR versions will not be in the new pat lawlor cabs. Which means they will make old cabs again in the future? Then why not make old cabs for YBR? Who knows?

I’m guessing from the inside this all makes perfect sense but certainly this is leading to a lot of confusion from the perspective of an enthusiast like myself.

#129 1 year ago
Quoted from spinal:

Since JJP didn’t just come clean about this, we JJP fans had to bash our heads against the wall for awhile in bewilderment.
This reason makes the most sense in light of the fact that future RR will have the monkey put back in. But then this would mean that those future RR versions will not be in the new pat lawlor cabs. Which means they will make old cabs again in the future? Then why not make old cabs for YBR? Who knows?
I’m guessing from the inside this all makes perfect sense but certainly this is leading to a lot of confusion from the perspective of an enthusiast like myself.

I don't see JJP ever making Ruby Reds using the older style cabinets. At TPF Jack didn't say that RR WOZ's would be made again but rather said "never say never" which was what he said with Pirates as well.

I seriously doubt JJP will go back to the old cabinet design as it requires a lot of hardware components to be in a large aluminum cabinet under the playfield. The new cabinet design is likely cheaper and makes service easier.

#130 1 year ago

Monkey or no monkey. I'm not paying 11.5k for any pinball. I thought prices got stupid when they crossed the 6500 mark. Now its just ridiculous. I can see a premium price for a rare game in pristine condition. But all of these "limited edition" reds and yellows and emeralds, with sparkly paint, without sparkly paint, with painted rails, without painted rails, with a wooden apron, without?? Who's kidding who? All of those variations cost nothing in the manufacturing process. It's just an attempt to make something ordinary seem special somehow. Just remember an old saying in the antiques field - "nothing sold as a "collectible" will ever be"!

#131 1 year ago
Quoted from spinal:

Since JJP didn’t just come clean about this,

Sometimes things are better left unsaid .... If Jack came "clean about this", if in fact this is the reason, everyone would be bitching about "how could your lead designer design a new cabinet and not take into consideration past games".

#132 1 year ago

Better than saying they removed the monkey for reliability reasons and that future RRs will have the unreliable monkey back in.

#133 1 year ago
Quoted from spinal:

Better than saying they removed the monkey for reliability reasons and that future RRs will have the unreliable monkey back in.

Yeah agree

#134 1 year ago
Quoted from meSz:

Sometimes things are better left unsaid .... If Jack came "clean about this", if in fact this is the reason, everyone would be bitching about "how could your lead designer design a new cabinet and not take into consideration past games".

Honestly always works better than inconsistent lies. Because while people may not agree with the resulting choice, the claims can't be torn apart as contradictory and misleading.

When they did the DI cabinet, they may not have had requirements to fit woz... who knew that after games 2,3,4 that they'd still want to go back to game 1..

#135 1 year ago

Agree, just tell the truth unless you think a few moves ahead to make sure that the consequences of not telling the truth don't lead to even more confusion and inconsistencies. JJP did not think this YBR release through - very rushed with no thought to how it would affect their brand down the road. Business is like chess, short-term moves may look great but even good short-term moves can have negative long-term consequences sometimes so think this stuff through.

Anyway, hopefully WW happiness will just wash this all away in the near future.

#136 1 year ago
Quoted from meSz:

Sometimes things are better left unsaid ...

#137 1 year ago
Quoted from spinal:

An important post that seems like the best explanation so far about why JJP removed the monkey from YBR:

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

At TPF Jack didn't say that RR WOZ's would be made again but rather said "never say never" which was what he said with Pirates as well.

Except that Jack already told me they’d be making more Ruby Reds, with the monkey, and in the new cabinets.

More Ruby Reds have since been confirmed by JJ on their Instagram feed:

More Ruby Reds

#138 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I'm a monkeeee....MAAAN![quoted image]

Funny, but that's not a Monkee, its a Jagger

#139 1 year ago
Quoted from Amused_to_Death:

Except that Jack already told me they’d be making more Ruby Reds, with the monkey, and in the new cabinets.

The mystery continues...

The monkey mech doesn’t fit in the new cabinets yet will be released as RR in the new cabinets

#140 1 year ago

I bought a used routed standard Woz. The monkey mech was noisy and per LTG, I put some white lithium grease on it and and it made it quiet. I don’t think this is a long term solution unless you wipe it clean and reapply every couple of years. Not an issue for me as is, but ymmv...

Manufacturers will make whatever they want and what the market will bear.

We did a tour of the Stern factory when they were just starting the AC/DC prem vaults. I asked our tour guide (a well known personality) if they were going to remake the LUCI edition. “It will Never happen” he said, “Yeah, sure thing bucko”, I thought, so I saved my money and wouldn’t you know, I bought the NIB Luci Vault 6 months later.

If you need the monkey mech now, buy used. Otherwise only a foolish company would remove the mech permanently...

#141 1 year ago
Quoted from spinal:

The mystery continues...
The monkey mech doesn’t fit in the new cabinets yet will be released as RR in the new cabinets

Not Possible, will need to make a smaller monkey mech or shorter Playfield,or cut a hole in the back of the cabinet

#142 1 year ago
Quoted from spinal:

The mystery continues...
The monkey mech doesn’t fit in the new cabinets yet will be released as RR in the new cabinets

Who from JJP has said that RR will be in the new cabinets? We don't know that yet.

Most importantly though, who cares? Buy a RR for $9,500. It's a better value than anything else in the 7-10k price range (as long as you like the game). Until all prices reach some insane amount, we should not care about a manufacturer having an alternate product that has a premium price tag. As long as there is perceived value in their main line products that most people buy, it's not a BFD.

#143 1 year ago

Doesn't anyone have a video of the JJP Q&A and YBR reveal session? I remember Jack answering the monkey question, but I could barely hear him, so I don't know what his answer was.

#144 1 year ago
Quoted from captainBR:

Doesn't anyone have a video of the JJP Q&amp;A and YBR reveal session? I remember Jack answering the monkey question, but I could barely hear him, so I don't know what his answer was.

You mean besides the twitch video?

#145 1 year ago
Quoted from vireland:

You mean besides the twitch video?

Did anyone record it? Link please! I wasn't watching twitch when I was there. :-p If you have a video, I believe the monkey question was answered about 5 minutes before the release for everyone to bum rush the YBR machine up front.

#146 1 year ago
Quoted from captainBR:

Did anyone record it? Link please! I wasn't watching twitch when I was there. :-p If you have a video, I believe the monkey question was answered about 5 minutes before the release for everyone to bum rush the YBR machine up front.

Yeah, all the seminars were recorded. They're here:

https://www.twitch.tv/texas_pinball_seminar/videos

While you're there check out the Alice Cooper death save:

https://www.twitch.tv/texas_pinball_seminar/clip/AbstruseBoringPancakeDatBoi

This didn't even register a little on the tilt. Was there a tiltbob on this machine?!

#147 1 year ago

A quick and dirty transcript of the relevant parts...

34:17

Q. [Inaudible]

Jack: The winged monkey is in it in animation. So the mechanical monkey…

Q. The internet wants to know if the winged monkey is in it.

Jack: The wing-ed monkey. I’m glad that you said it the right way. Nice hat, Charlie. The winged monkey is in there in the animation. So when you see the screen fly down, ah, you know, the monkeys come down and pick up the ball, ah, what happens is that you get an extra ball that gets shot up to the upper playfield, and the magnet is still there, so it holds the ball, so really all the game features are true to the rules. Mechanically, that one mechanism is not there. Which a lot of people might be happy about.

37:52

Q. [Inaudible]

Jack: Okay, are we out of the Ruby Red version, and the answer is yes. Um, we may be able to build some of those in the future, too. And I can tell you, if we do build them, ah, we’ll let you know first.

47:43

Q. Can you tell us, Butch or Jack, what’s different with the service platform now? Is this game easier to service than earlier games?

Butch: Well, for one thing, it’s got the new lighting system in it, that’s a big deal, so you’re not gonna have boards going out, that’s very frustrating. That monkey mech, we do get calls on that. You know, with it not being in there, that noise that it makes, the vibration, and the reverberation inside the cabinet, that’s gonna not be… it’ll all be in animation now, so it’s, you know, quiet and nice music and things like that. Also, it’s been a difficult mech to get lined up just right, every once in a while, so, you know, you take that out of the game, so it makes it a little more reliable. We’ve got one less of the doors on the upper playfield. The castle playfield now has two motors rather than three, so… Sometimes those little screws come undone and your doors don’t open, but your motor’s turning, trying to open it, so there’s one… 33 percent less chance of that happening now.

Eric: The castle doors have also been redesigned completely. The switches that were on them were an actively closed switch that was very difficult to adjust. Now they are opto-based switches, so they’re much more reliable. They’re adjustable from the top of the playfield, instead of having to remove the upper playfield. Ah, a lot easier to adjust there. Also, the electronics have been moved into the backbox, so that there are now two fewer interconnects between everything on the playfield and the chassis and the I/O board that controls them, so a lot fewer broken wires or pushed out pins, etc. So, it should be a lot more easy to service, and a lot fewer just basic pinball issues with the game.

Butch: Yeah, those metal boxes, every game with them, the metal box in the bottom, you have connectors going into the back of the metal box, you have connectors coming out of the back of the box, so you have all these extra connection points, that’s what Eric’s talking about. And those castle doors now have a flag bracket on the top of them, so when they open, when the door opens, it now breaks a U-shaped opto. It makes the switch, rather than microswitches and the problems that they bring to the table. Yeah, everything being behind… you know, with the new monitor, the swing out monitor, and all those different things that come with that cabinet design… very easy to get to now… you can bring your monitor out on a swivel, and ah, pivot it off to the side… very easy to get to a lot of the main electronics in the backbox, so…

50:31

Q: Is it a union thing? What is the pinball industry’s current obsession with getting rid of monkeys?

Jack: I don’t know. I have to think about that one for a minute.

#148 1 year ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

I know a lot of people who had problems with that mech... so I would assume to avoid more problems. That is just a guess.

I had issues with mine when I was an owner. Once I got it working, it worked great. That said, it was a PIA to get right the first time.

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