Wizard of Oz
Jersey Jack, 2013Yes, woz still a great beautifull pin whithout the monkey, but it is the favorite toy for my kids. Every time the monkey flies and take the ball there is excitement
Between a 9500 ruby red and a 11500 yBR , I would gladely choose the monkey over the banana glitter one 
They should quickly rethink this monkey situation before any games ship. Put the fuckin monkey back in the game. What a bone head move
Quoted from Amused_to_Death:Incorrect. JJ is planning to make more Ruby Reds, with monkeys, later this year. They will be in the new cabinets, with the updated hardware, etc.
If that’s the case, then this YBR monkey removal seems even more nuts!! If the mech is flawed then the RR cabs will change but the broken mech is OK for JJPs RR customers! If the mech is not flawed, then why would you remove from YBR unless you had to.
This is madness! JJP, at least inform the pinball community of what is going on here.
How do you know that Ruby Red’s will have the monkey?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:It's really not.
It's just a pinball machine without a monkey.
Hi Levi, thanks for posting.
So please describe how it makes sense to you that a company who has always stuck firmly to the principle that every version will have the exact gameplay experience, now alternates between releasing multiple versions of their cornerstone pin, with the most expensive elite version having less mechs than the lower version. I’m serious, please respond how this makes sense to you - thanks
Oh and if the mech is flawed, then Levi, how does it makes sense for a company to release pins with the flawed version to some customers and not to others? Remember we are discussing that future RR editions will have the mech.
Quoted from spinal:How do you know that Ruby Red’s will have the monkey?
I heard it directly from Jack.
Ruby Red (75th Anniversary) model has the monkey, YBR model does not, so that answers that question.
Quoted from Pinballomatic:Ruby Red (75th Anniversary) model has the monkey, YBR model does not, so that answers that question.
Your post contains no point. We are discussing a company removing a mech because it is flawed and then reintroducing it as RR in new cab and hardware in the future and whether this makes sense. Or trying to figure out why it makes sense to JJP.
My post makes absolute sense, although I understand what you are saying. The reason that the VERY small run of upcoming 75th games will be built with monkey mechs is because the 75th model has the monkey mech in its BOM and the new YBR version of WOZ does not have it. It's kind of like saying "why won't the 75th model soon to be built have the inside artwork blades or the sparkly playfield" when the answer is that only the YBR version comes with those items. Different models have different features is basically the answer, however unsatisfying that may be.
Quoted from Pinballomatic:Different models have different features is basically the answer, however unsatisfying that may be.
Correct. And hence my dilemma. 
Quoted from Pinballomatic:My post makes absolute sense, although I understand what you are saying. The reason that the VERY small run of upcoming 75th games will be built with monkey mechs is because the 75th model has the monkey mech in its BOM and the new YBR version of WOZ does not have it. It's kind of like saying "why won't the 75th model soon to be built have the inside artwork blades or the sparkly playfield" when the answer is that only the YBR version comes with those items. Different models have different features is basically the answer, however unsatisfying that may be.
Hi Pinballomatic, thanks for your post. Do you personally feel it’s OK for a company to remove a mech for reliability reasons from one version and include it in other versions that they sell? I think this is the first time for this industry. What is your honest opinion on this Pinballomatic?
Personally? I don't know exactly. I mean, it's an upper management decision, I didn't make it so my personal feelings on it do not matter. I think that basically a company can do what it wants but then they are subject to customers or would-be customers ultimately deciding whether or not to buy the game. There are tons of WOZ games out there with monkey mech's on them so having them on future 75ths is nothing unusual and not a major concern. To look at it from my perspective (since you are asking me), I personally do not like mirror blades on my games, no offense to those who do, but I dislike them and the only reason they are installed on my Road Show is because I bought the game that way. Therefore the YBR artwork blades or whatever - yeah, not for me. Not a deal breaker but not to my liking. You can apply that to the monkey - if I was set on having a mechanical monkey I would try to get a model that has one. If the virtual lock and no longer opening single door doesn't concern me, I might be interested in the YBR model. Does that answer it better for you?
Quoted from spinal:Do you personally feel it’s OK for a company to remove a mech for reliability reasons from one version and include it in other versions that they sell?
It may not be entirely logical, but it’s the most logical. A Ruby Red should be a Ruby Red.
I still think YBR should have been treated as if it were a CE. I’d have different art on the cabinet and instead of removing the monkey, I’d be plussing the game with flapping wings, LEDs in the trees, etc.
I guess not everyone is following the plot here which is OK.
What I’m saying is that when a company removes a mech for reliability reasons they are stating that it is a piece of hardware that does not work and is not good enough to be released to the public. If this is the stance JJP are taking, then they can no longer in good conscience release this mech to the public in the future. I am also saying that this is the first time that a company has suggested they will do this. (Please don’t make me type here that I am advocating for monkey mech removal for RR - that is not at all my point. OK I had to type it)
Otherwise they have to state that it is not defective which is fine. But JJP can’t it both ways at least not with pinball enthusiasts.
I find this whole thing hilarious. It seems like most of you are perfectly fine spending up to $10000 or more on a 'Rolls Royce' JJP game but suddenly a few grand more is unacceptable. Yeah, yeah - monkey has been removed but you get glitter lol. If you gotta have monkeys, get a Congo. All kinds of monkey action in that game and way cheaper. The whole thing must seem pretty silly to anyone not in the hobby.
I’m following along as far as I care to; what puzzles me is why it has to be a big deal - why can’t it be “this game has this feature while that game doesn’t”? If there was any nonsense like “this mech may burn your house down” and they left it in - I could see that but this is feature versus feature model versus model not uncommon in modern pinball.
Quoted from spinal:JJP can’t [have] it both ways
Yes, yes they can. 
I just read Hollywood is working on a horror film based in Oz. Maybe I should hold out for a JJ Wicked Witch of the West Collector’s Edition featuring the witch, monkey, and crystal ball on the cabinet sides, black armor, and black, green, or winged monkey blue wireforms. Oh, and a mostly working monkey mech. 
FWIW, I'm not talking about price.
jawjaw, thanks for your post.
What are your thoughts on a company removing a mech because of reliability reasons from one version and having another version (RR) that they sell at the same or future time that has the mech?
Quoted from spinal:FWIW, I'm not talking about price.
jawjaw, thanks for your post.
What are your thoughts on a company removing a mech because of reliability reasons from one version and having another version (RR) that they sell at the same or future time that has the mech?
My thoughts are I don't give a shit. If I don't want to buy a YBR edition I won't. If I'd rather buy a Ruby Red, I can pick and choose from HUO options or wait for a possible rerun.
Also, serious question (so now you have to answer it because I said that) What are your thoughts on just not buying this game and buying something else, or nothing, rather than starting two separate threads to try to roil up an outrage which - beyond the usual annoyances and complaints everything gets around here - just doesn't seem to be fermenting?
Quoted from Pinballomatic:I’m following along as far as I care to; what puzzles me is why it has to be a big deal - why can’t it be “this game has this feature while that game doesn’t”? If there was any nonsense like “this mech may burn your house down” and they left it in - I could see that but this is feature versus feature model versus model not uncommon in modern pinball.
I'm looking into it deeper than you that's all. Some look one move ahead in chess and others 5, it's just a hobby afterall. I care about the why. What motivated JJP to remove the mech? That is all. I'm just interested that they think it's OK to release one with a flawed mech (they say) and another (RR) with it still in.
Quoted from spinal:Hi Pinballomatic, thanks for your post. Do you personally feel it’s OK for a company to remove a mech for reliability reasons from one version and include it in other versions that they sell? I think this is the first time for this industry. What is your honest opinion on this Pinballomatic?
What if they simply couldn’t get monkeys delivered on time, had an empty production line and needed to sell machines quickly to keep the business going.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:My thoughts are I don't give a shit. If I don't want to buy a YBR edition I won't. If I'd rather buy a Ruby Red, I can pick and choose from HUO options or wait for a possible rerun.
Also, serious question (so now you have to answer it because I said that) What are your thoughts on just not buying this game and buying something else, or nothing, rather than starting two separate threads to try to roil up an outrage which - beyond the usual annoyances and complaints everything gets around here - just doesn't seem to be fermenting?
Well I thought we could have a discussion about specific topics which is what the point of a thread is in the first place. If you don't give a shit about any of this why are you posting here? I do give a shit - that's why I'm posting.
I always find it interesting how there are those that want to shut down discussion on specific topics. I'm being respectful and asking very specific questions about JJP that's all. Also interesting that those who are in or connected to the industry or have business relationships with JJP offer their unbiased opinions here.
Quoted from spinal:Well I thought we could have a discussion about specific topics which is what the point of a thread is in the first place. If you don't give a shit about any of this why are you posting here? I do give a shit.
I said it was a serious question. Why didn't you answer it?
And there are already a couple threads dedicated to YBR and the "madness" of monkey removal but I'm sure you know that.
Quoted from epthegeek:Wait. How many more versions are they going to make?
We are discussing (or I'm trying to have a discussion about) whether it's OK for a pinball manufacturer to remove a mech because of reliability reasons from one version (YBR) and then release another version in the future (RR) that has that 'flawed' mech in the game. Above post stated that Jack said that future RR version will have the mech but in new cabs/hardware.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:My thoughts are I don't give a shit. If I don't want to buy a YBR edition I won't. If I'd rather buy a Ruby Red, I can pick and choose from HUO options or wait for a possible rerun.
Also, serious question (so now you have to answer it because I said that) What are your thoughts on just not buying this game and buying something else, or nothing, rather than starting two separate threads to try to roil up an outrage which - beyond the usual annoyances and complaints everything gets around here - just doesn't seem to be fermenting?
I'm not trying to stir the pot - asking specific questions which you failed to answer or even give your opinion on.
I have a RR and very happy with it. I just love JJP and just concerned about how they are moving forward that's all. That's why we are discussing this.
Your suggestion is that we should not discuss this point and just buy or not buy. This is besides the point and does not further this specific conversation at all. If all you want to do is shut down this conversation and you 'don't give a shit' then move onto another thread.
Quoted from spinal:I'm not trying to stir the pot - asking specific questions which you failed to answer or even give your opinion on.
I have a RR and very happy with it. I just love JJP and just concerned about how they are moving forward that's all. That's why we are discussing this.
If they don't sell any YRB's they probably won't move forward like this again. If they do, I guess it's just not much of an issue. I personally couldn't care less about the monkey mech but I'm not a coil/toy counter either.
People will vote with their wallets.
Quoted from adol75:What if they simply couldn’t get monkeys delivered on time, had an empty production line and needed to sell machines quickly to keep the business going.
Perhaps that's a possibility - thanks for your post.
However, because JJP are saying it's for reliability reasons, they can't expect to switch back and forth on it's reliability - one day it's not reliable and then it is reliable...
Surely you would agree that this is at the very least, a very confusing stance for a company to take on an 8 year old mech.
I think the big picture is the increase in price. Everyone that buys pinball machines should give a crap about what's transpiring here. At the end of the day, the cost of ALL pins are being directly affected by this. This effects both NIB's and used games also.
Today we accept a half baked version of the YBR for 11,500, so now the RR version is a deal at 10,500 (new price, up from 9500).
Everyone talks about the used market increasing so rapidly from only a year or two ago, but now compared to a 9-10k machine everything under 5k looks good. At this rate 11,500 will sound normal.
This is where the real concern lies in this thread. The big question is the pricing threshold that is being tested and will it reach the limit.
Quoted from iceman44:Nothing has to make sense in JJP land
Why try?
$11,500?
No monkey?
No sense whatsoever
The “justifiers” will say add it up and say radcals, wooden apron, etc
Put monkey in and take out the stupid apron
Hi iceman, what are your thoughts on why they removed the mech? For reliability or to save money? Did they run out of monkey mechs? What do you think?
Quoted from spinal:Hi iceman, what are your thoughts on why did removed the mech? For reliability or to save money? Did they run out of the mech? What do you think?
When you’re told it wasn’t about saving money, it was about saving money.
It’s always about saving money, always.
Quoted from Amused_to_Death:Incorrect. JJ is planning to make more Ruby Reds, with monkeys, later this year. They will be in the new cabinets, with the updated hardware, etc.
knowing this is making it hard for me to choose. I like the backglass, art blades, glitter, and apron on YBR, but I really don’t want to give up the monkey.
Jack needs to do a YBR+ version!
This makes zero sense and I have to think this is something being lost in translation.
It makes no sense to remove it from YBR, but keep it in a later RR run that is getting engineering updates as well. Re-running RR and saying so.. only stands to stall YBR sales which are priced way higher.
When no one like the price, the best way to make it accepted is make it the only price. Offering RR afterwards just undermines that.
I don't think JJ made YBR just to have some 'exclusive' level pin sitting around for those looking to pay for it.. especially if RR were still in demand.
Quoted from Mike_J:When you’re told it wasn’t about saving money, it was about saving money.
It’s always about saving money, always.
Maybe but look at the cost of redesigning multiple mechs and new code and now having to manage multiple versions of code etc. I can't be worth the cost of that simple hardware - it's not a Rudy head from Funhouse. It goes up and down with two sensors. My point is how can this be worth it in the end?
And with this spectacular hit to their reputation being increasingly know recently as the company that cuts mechs. And the market confusion with some versions having different mechs than others and switching back and forth. Doesn't seem worth it in the end with regard to saving money so that's why it has to be for reliability IMO. I don't know in the end and that's what this thread is about.
Quoted from spinal:We are discussing (or I'm trying to have a discussion about) whether it's OK for a pinball manufacturer to remove a mech because of reliability reasons from one version (YBR) and then release another version in the future (RR) that has that 'flawed' mech in the game. Above post stated that Jack said that future RR version will have the mech but in new cabs/hardware.
Is it ok? Of course it is ok. JJP can create whatever pin they want with whatever features. You get to decide if it is okay with your wallet or coin drop. The whole LE market is a racket imo but can't be mad at JJP or Stern because there is a market for it. If there is a market for YBR then JJP is justified. If not, then JJP is forced to produce a better product.
Only exception I would agree with is when they announce a pin like POTC, collect money, and then remove features keeping price the same. Still, you should be able to get your deposit back at that point if you are not happy with those changes. Plus, you have to expect things may change when committing before games ship.
Quoted from jawjaw:Is it ok? Of course it is ok. JJP can create whatever pin they want with whatever features. You get to decide if it is okay with your wallet or coin drop. The whole LE market is a racket imo but can't be mad at JJP or Stern because there is a market for it. If there is a market for YBR then JJP is justified. If not, then JJP is forced to produce a better product.
Only exception I would agree with is when they announce a pin like POTC, collect money, and then remove features keeping price the same. Still, you should be able to get your deposit back at that point if you are not happy with those changes. Plus, you have to expect things may change when committing before games ship.
Well, you would be right if there was no such thing as a company's reputation or brand or anything to do with advertising or marketing. Your comments completely ignore the fact that consumers have thoughts about products or companies and that those thoughts have impact on their buying decisions. Do you really believe that a company can do anything, make any decisions and they have no impact? You can't be serious.
Of course this is all decided in the end by consumer's wallets - this is saying nothing. We are discussing how JJP's decisions moving forward affect how consumers spend from their wallets and whether these are good decisions or bad decisions.
I’m allergic to monkeys so I applaud their consideration to us with Monkey-phobia. Spinal curious, at what point is your attempt at a conversation on the topic sound less like we need to see it your way and the company is wrong? Point made I guess. Personally I (we) still have choices to buy whatever we like in any color or accessory package. If they don’t sell then it was a miss. If they do still doesn’t effect Any of us in my view. I love some pinball machines and configurations better then others but why would that give me the right to tell them how to run Thier business? I will buy the next title I like, no matter what anyone thinks is correct.
Quoted from spinal:Hi iceman, what are your thoughts on why they removed the mech? For reliability or to save money? Did they run out of monkey mechs? What do you think?
Have to agree with MikeJ
Cost savings which is nuts to me. Keep the apron and the radcals
Why change the gameplay for the worse and charge more?
Wonka pricing is gonna be REAL interesting
Quoted from Yelobird:I’m allergic to monkeys so I applaud their consideration to us with Monkey-phobia. Spinal curious, at what point is your attempt at a conversation on the topic sound less like we need to see it your way and the company is wrong? Point made I guess. Personally I (we) still have choices to buy whatever we like in any color or accessory package. If they don’t sell then it was a miss. If they do still doesn’t effect Any of us in my view. I love some pinball machines and configurations better then others but why would that give me the right to tell them how to run Thier business? I will buy the next title I like, no matter what anyone thinks is correct.
Hi Yelobird, thanks for your post. I'm asking other pinsider's opinions on a specific question which you didn't answer. Yelobird, do you think it's reasonable for a company to say a mech is defective so remove it from YBR and then in the future release RR editions with what they said was a defective mech? It's a yes or no question and value your opinion. Thanks.
Quoted from iceman44:Have to agree with MikeJ
Cost savings which is nuts to me. Keep the apron and the radcals
Why change the gameplay for the worse and charge more?
Wonka pricing is gonna be REAL interesting
Thanks iceman. With regard to changing gameplay, JJP have been precisely the company that stated they would never do that across different versions of their games (whereas Stern has different gameplay across versions). For example, Jack has stated this as a founding principle of JJP since the beginning and Eric Meunier stated this in his reveal vids for POTC. YBR is the first pin where they are going against this principle.
Let's zoom out for a second. The mechanical theme integration of the plotline where Dorothy is captured and then saved plays out as follows. To get Rescue multiball you must first get Dorothy captured and the monkey mech takes Dorothy away to the castle (actually in hardware so this is what makes this great). The ball is Dorothy and she is actually captured and physically locked in the castle. When she is rescued, the ball is released which makes sense. Now in YBR, all this is taken out with a virtual-lock type implementation I'm presuming. I'm not bashing JJP here, it is a compliment, how fantastic this mechanical theme integration was implemented. I'm saying that it's great so there must be very good reasons why it was taken out. This thread is a discussion of trying to figure out why all this brilliant design was taken out. When JJP would have never considered taking out this mech in the early days of the company (and in fact the first 8 years).
Quoted from spinal:Hi Yelobird, thanks for your post. I'm asking other pinsider's opinions on a specific question which you didn't answer. Yelobird, do you think it's reasonable for a company to say a mech is defective so remove it from YBR and then in the future release RR editions with what they said was a defective mech? It's a yes or no question and value your opinion. Thanks.
I have yet to read or Hear JJP say the mech was “defective”. You might be embellishing a bit. The have had issues with it, welcome to pinball. As we don’t have any Factual information on why they removed it I will vote “yes” I am fine with the company making a product change that will make the game more reliable.
Quoted from Yelobird:I have yet to read or Hear JJP say the mech was “defective”. You might be embellishing a bit. The have had issues with it, welcome to pinball. As we don’t have any Factual information on why they removed it I will vote “yes” I am fine with the company making a product change that will make the game more reliable.
OK, but you have to agree that to go through the trouble of taking a mech out after 8 years means they must at least think there is something left to be desired about the monkey mech.
Again, follow carefully here... the main point is not that the mech was removed but that they removed it for what they said were reliability reasons for YBR, YET are releasing it in future RR versions.
Yelobird, do you think that what I wrote in the preceding sentence is a good plan moving forward for JJP or not? Yes or no
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