Drop targets change the gameplay from standup targets.

I actually dislike your ideas quite a bit. Tell me there are 500 LEs out there with limited edition artwork and I'm okay with that. Tell me there are 500 LEs out there, and those are the only games with show stopping upgrades and I wouldn't even consider buying a stern.

It sounds like they are moving away from it, but with AC/DC I think they hit the nail on the head. Have an LE with different art that people will pay big bucks for, but don't punish the Premium buyers by including everything as well. The Pro is another story.

Regarding the display being different on pro vs LE, that won't happen:

1) there is no such thing as a color Dmd. Therefore, you can't have a colored Dmd. (Colordmd is actually an LCD)

2) moving from Dmd to LCD requires a major effort. The entire video chipset has to be modified. Then the core os has to be rewritten. Today, developers like Lyman utilize an existing library of functions to display most their "dots". They do not have to reinvent the wheel on each game. Functions already exist to display say player score, ball saved, etc. for the move to LCD, these core functions all need a rewrite from scratch.

3) once moved to LCD, it would cost a lot of money to support both Dmd and LCD for different skus of product. That would require separate board chipsets to be used as well as separate programming per game (one for Dmd and one for LCD). It won't happen that way.

This thread is proof enough that a different game play makes a difference. If the game play was the same, Stern would not sell as many LE/Premiums and not maximize the income potential. I think Stern learned from Tron a couple of things. One, not to limit the availability of the pricier pin version(LE) and that the game play difference MAY be the factor that gets people to spend the extra cash.

I think Stern nailed it with AC/DC as well. If all versions had the same playfield and gameplay, we never would have gotten the game Steve Ritchie wanted to make. There would be no bell, lower playfield, drop targets, TNT plunger, etc...

I hope Stern uses this same model on their next game (X-men?). That's just my 2 cents.

Jim

I won't buy a pro if there are additional features on a Premium or LE other than artwork/trim. I won't/can't pre-order an LE and hope I like it. I also won't pay $9+ Gs for an LE. So I guess that means I won't be buying any new Sterns from now on if they keep this crap up.

+1

I am not a big fan of 3 to 4 different models at all. Kick up price & depth of the basic/pro model to $5,500 to make up for any funds lost on a limited model. I am all for pro and premium (not of a big price gap as now) with some of the differences you mentioned upgraded speakers, lighting, trim/railing, and cabinet decals, screened playfield like on TRON LE, maybe an extra mode with playfield the same layout.

Then every other year release a limited custom theme pin with a run of 900 and charge 8K for em. That would be pretty sweet. I know it is not going to happen so please don't bother with a long explanation why it wont just what I would like to see.

I hate LE, PRO and all non standard models. They never did this for the 100k's of machines out there. Stern did it to increase their profit becuase making a pro or LE is cheap for them and they make a ton of cash for the upgrades.

I hate seeing all different models of the same game. Plus like Tron LE once they make the few hundred thats it. You cannot get them. And if they play better they devalue the original game.

Only people who like them are the ones who bought them for bias reasons.

Bah! There should be 2 pins. LE ....and everything else. So there

ACDC sales model is perfect IMO, PRO for ops & pinheads who want the basic core gameplay of the next NIB stern - Premium for ops and pinheads who want the full experience as intended - LE fat anyone who wants it but aimed at the high end collector. Covers all corners of the market without excluding anyone within it by limiting the fully featured models. I thought stern would have learnt their lesson with TRON but clearly not, why they have changed it is anyone's guess as it makes absolutely zero sense.

Two versions with identical gameplay is exactly what Jersey Jack is doing with WOZ. All differences are cosmetic only. I think it is a model that would serve Stern well.

Both of these posts are spot on. I agree with both of them. I definitely do not like the "cash grab" model/marketing scheme.

Yep

Yep

Yep

+1 bigtime on this. Let Stern make their LE's so they will keep spending more money on innovation and see what works. It makes pinball on the whole better. I have zero issue with the LE's being a beafed up version of the game where Stern can test different things to see what works and what doesn't. Diversity is good, even if it is in the same model.

But JJ is at $6500 and $7500 on their games which is pricing many people out of the market. If they had a $4200 stripped down version, they would sell a lot more and reach the average pinhead. Not sure too many WOZ's will be on location at those prices either. If Stern made all of them at the premium level, our hobby would reach a much smaller group of people.

Agreed. The bell and cannon are the only reasons I did not give the premium a 10 in my pinside rankings. Let Borg, Ritchie, Gomez (and maybe Lawlor????) create the games they want to create at any cost, then cut some of the items to make the penny-counters happy.

Actually this is not comparable to what stern is doing. If you want to compare apples-to-apples here, then stern would only release an LE at $7500 and a Premium at $6500 and dump the pro. Or JJP would have to find some way to cut costs and still make a reasonably fun game without a lot of the cool toys for $2000 less.

Stern's current model is actually quite decent. It still provides a reasonably priced machine for route operators that want a new pinball while at the same time provides more loaded machines for home collectors that hate the recent cost cutting Stern has had to implement to break even with inflation.

I think Stern got it right with AC/DC by introducing the Premium model...same gameplay as the LE without the LE bling.

If Stern wants to make the stripped down pro for ops then let them, but don't make the full game a limited run! As I told Borg I won't be buying one because I'm not buying a game blind, I'm not buying a stripped down POS pin, and I'm not going to pay an inflated price to collectors after the fact for the real game.

The way they did ac/dc was the way to do it if they wanted to do 50 different damn models! I don't see how they make more money with all the different models because they have to pay the art guy to make 5 different art packages, the code guys to do extra/different coding, the designer to design more than one layout and still make it work worth a damn, the dot guys to either add or take out stuff, the code guys again for two seperate updates for the different models, and then the factory line has to be a disaster for the people actually putting these games together to keep up with what game they are working on!

I think it shouldn't have the same stuff because then there's nothing really special about the LE.

Grant

Premium and LE only please. No serious pinheads wants a striped down game for 5k.

I agree with this in general, but I would like Stern to at least consider doing a wide body . . . it provides us with a little diversity and forces their designers to step out of their (current) comfort zone somewhat. Truthfully, I would not be at all surprised if the one of the next three Sterns is a wide body.

Sure a wide body doesn't necessarily mean that it will be a better game but the fact that they wont even take it into consideration means that they are not willing to part with the extra cash.... This is the reason why their games are cheap and the reason why I am so shat off with them. To come out and say that you need a special piece of wood.... wtf. JJ is doing it on their first pin!! Given the history of great games like TZ, STTNG, Paragon, DM etc why not give it a shot...

If I understand what I've read so far, the problem seems to be that many would like the full featured games, AKA the BIB LE, but don't want to spend that kind of $$$ without seeing/playing the game first, (which seems very reasonable). The rub is that when they do limited/small runs like they did with BIB or LOTR, the specualtors/resellers swoop in, and suddenly these already very expensive games, become priced out of range. Of course that doesn't always happen, TFLE's are a prime example, but if the game is well received, Tron LE, well we've all seen the result. So, the average purchaser is forced to either spend way more than they want too, or settle for less than the full featured game. Now Stern appears to have addressed this problem with the Premium, which has all the game features of the LE's, just missing the Bling!!

Whether or not their pricing is fair, well that's another whole other discussion!!

I have an issue with the whole "LE" thing in the first place. Traditionally, LE games were homages or celebrations of successful game designs. Now every game that comes out has a "LE" version and it's more of a marketing tactic.

I vote to either go like AC/DC but with only 1 LE version (Pro, Premium, LE). Pro is the scailed back version, premium and LE are the same except limited and blinged.

OR

Black Spider-Man plan, which is 2 versions. Same game but LE is blinged. Even toy upgrades would be fine as long as they don't change gameplay.

Worst case senerio for Xmen (if the rumors are true) is to have 2 LE versions (one villians and one heroes). This is even worse than Transformers....at least it had an LE combo. having to choose between these 2....I think I would sooner pass on a LE and just get the regular version, especially if they had a regular version with all of the gameplay of a LE (premium).

Gameplay yes, toys maybe not. Obviously they are trying to keep quality up but still keep the cost down for operators.

They also need to limit the amount of le's IMO. However they are selling out, so it must work. I think in the case of transformers it was cool, but not for every release.

Oh and btw, qr codes are not that cool, used to market products, but not as a game feature....

I think Stern finally figured it out. The ACDC model is the way to go. LE, Premium and Pro. Judging by their recent successes, I see no reason to change the current model. I am sure a little tweaking here and there but overall this appears to be the right strategy.