(Topic ID: 333886)

Why Can't We Have Simple Code AND Deep Code??

By rogerdodger

1 year ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 33 posts
  • 22 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by TheLaw
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    #1 1 year ago

    Hi Guys:

    I know nothing about coding a pinball machine but for the folks who are not advanced players (like me), why won't the manufacturers program a machine with both simple code and deep code, where we could decide which one we prefer to play?

    I would have thought that when programming deep, to make a simple version also, would not take much extra time.

    I love the look of Godfather (haven't played it yet) but, with so many people commenting on how deep the code is, I'm not sure it's for me.

    I'm 74 now (bought my first pin when I was 15) and, to be honest, I don't have the patience to learn (or even remember) the ultra-deep rules.

    Any suggestions that would help me understand the deeper, more complex games, without having to go back to college?

    Roger

    #2 1 year ago

    Rush does have a" home "code in it, makes the game much easier. Not sure on others .

    #3 1 year ago

    My comfort zone is in the 90's pins ...
    Deep enough for me .
    In a home environment you can learn the deeper coded games easy enough.

    #4 1 year ago
    Quoted from transprtr4u:

    My comfort zone is in the 90's pins ...
    Deep enough for me .
    In a home environment you can learn the deeper coded games easy enough.

    Yes, I agree.

    I have owned many 90's pins and they are perfect for me.

    However, it seems a shame that I can't get into the deeper codes, as it means I am missing out on some fine pins, not to mention that the manufacturers are missing out on another sale!

    #5 1 year ago

    I think we can but many programmers have complicated things too much with crazy multiplier rules, and multiple modes + multiballs all stacking on top of each others. No single mode can be enjoyed really on its own and instead it's one big confusing mess with almost every insert flashing. Many modern modes also lack mode choreography and can often feel generic besides the mode text on screen (example, Godfathers multiballs).

    Here's my approach to a modern deep story based ruleset that is also approachable. This is fairly similar to what we've seen in the past and combines elements from LOTR and Dialed In's ruleset.

    1. 12 objective based main story modes all with unique animations, sounds, and music: start the mode with a couple of ramp shots or whatever (insert for each mode on the playfield)
    1a. These 12 modes would all be unique, only 1 can run at a time, and only one multiball can be stacked with them at anypoint
    1b. There would be an award wheel of 12 awards, each for completing one of the 12 main modes with a shot that is lit at the end of completing the mode (Gift of the Elves style from LOTR)
    1c. Completing 6 modes awards grants access to a mid wizard mode that is played on it's own (inset on playfield for mode)
    1d. Completing 12 modes awards grants access to another mid that can also be played on it's own (inset on playfield for mode)
    1e. Collecting all 12 wheel awards grants access to the third mid wizard mode (inset on playfield for mode)
    2. 3 objective based multiballs with multiple stages that all feature story elements related to the theme, unique animations, and music. Only 1 of these can be stacked with a main story mode at anytime
    3. Completing all 12 main modes plus collecting the 12 wheel awards and completing the 3 multiballs gives access to the games super wizard mode

    Sadly not many modern games do what I described above and if they do they lack mode choreography. Many only have 6 or 8 main modes and others have multiballs that play all very generic (sorry Godfather and GNR).

    #6 1 year ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    I think we can but many programmers have complicated things too much with crazy multiplier rules, and multiple modes + multiballs all stacking on top of each others.
    Here's my approach to a modern deep story based ruleset that is also approachable
    1. 12 objective based main story modes all with unique animations, sounds, and music: start the mode with a couple of ramp shots or whatever (insert for each mode on the playfield)
    1a. These 12 modes would all be unique, only 1 can run at a time, and only one multiball can be stacked with them at anypoint
    1b. There would be an award wheel of 12 awards, each for completing one of the 12 main modes with a shot that is lit at the end of completing the mode (Gift of the Elves style from LOTR)
    1c. Completing 6 modes awards grants access to a mid wizard mode that is played on it's own (inset on playfield for mode)
    1d. Completing 12 modes awards grants access to another mid that can also be played on it's own (inset on playfield for mode)
    1e. Collecting all 12 wheel awards grants access to the third wizard mode (inset on playfield for mode)
    2. 3 objective based multiballs with multiple stages that all feature story elements related to the theme, unique animations, and music. Only 1 of these can be stacked with a main story mode at anytime
    3. Completing all 12 main modes plus collecting the 12 wheel awards and completing the 3 multiballs gives access to the games super wizard mode
    Sadly not many modern games do what I described above. Many only have 6 or 8 main modes and others have multiballs that play all very generic (sorry Godfather and GNR).

    I don't understand why the programmers are so set on adding more and more and more modes and stacking. Do they really think that more, more and more really makes for a better game?

    Regardless (and back to my original post) why not just add a 'home' ruleset, where one can play an 'easier' version and then progress onto a deeper version, if one cares to do so?

    #7 1 year ago

    You don't need separate rulesheets. Take Godzilla... novices can easily progress towards the two main multiballs, and it's not hard to start a kaiju mode or jets or something similar. I've never seen a novice player unsatisfied with a game of GZ. Of course, GZ also has all the good stuff deeper in the code that better players can work for.

    Your "home" rulesheet would just elminiate the deeper stuff, what's the point?

    Maybe novice players should realize you're not going to see everything the game has to offer without putting forth some effort to get good and earn it. Would you want a dumbed down version of your favorite console game that only has three maps and can be beaten in an hour??

    Quoted from rogerdodger:

    I'm 74 now (bought my first pin when I was 15) and, to be honest, I don't have the patience to learn (or even remember) the ultra-deep rules.

    You don't need to learn them. Keep the ball alive and aim for the lit shots. That's all pinball is about. It's up to you whether you want to delve into the rules for maximum scoring, or just play through the main basic modes.

    #8 1 year ago
    Quoted from metallik:

    You don't need separate rulesheets. Take Godzilla... novices can easily progress towards the two main multiballs, and it's not hard to start a kaiju mode or jets or something similar. I've never seen a novice player unsatisfied with a game of GZ. Of course, GZ also has all the good stuff deeper in the code that better players can work for.
    Your "home" rulesheet would just elminiate the deeper stuff, what's the point?
    Maybe novice players should realize you're not going to see everything the game has to offer without putting forth some effort to get good and earn it. Would you want a dumbed down version of your favorite console game that only has three maps and can be beaten in an hour??

    You don't need to learn them. Keep the ball alive and aim for the lit shots. That's all pinball is about. It's up to you whether you want to delve into the rules for maximum scoring, or just play through the main basic modes.

    Great response to my question, for which I thank you. This makes a lot of sense.

    Maybe it's time I took the time and trouble to do exactly what you suggest, rather than just knock the ball around. It should also make me a better player.

    Thanks again.

    #9 1 year ago

    All pinball should be judged by fun factor by the player. Rules are good but not end all. Fun, fast, punch off one more game. Simple. If I like it , and it is fun to me no one else’s opinion is relevant if for me it is a home run , touchdown, goal, Win win win.
    I love it pinball at its best.

    #10 1 year ago

    Try foo fighters the code is pretty shallow. Hit a few white shots which might the left ramp for mode. Then play the mode which is just hitting a series of colored arrows. Doesn't get much simpler than that.

    #11 1 year ago

    I’ve owned a few games thru the years and I can tell you on a limited budget I need something that challenges me for good while.
    I got a Bride of Pinbot because my wife played at the Texas Festival and loved it.Found a decent one cleaned and tweaked it to where it played fast and smooth.Two months later nobody including me was playing it!Wonka has been here for a couple years and still gets played

    #12 1 year ago

    Most deep games have a simple top layer. But players who don't want complex rules don't seem to be able to just ignore the advanced rules and have fun with the basic ones

    #13 1 year ago
    Quoted from Deez:

    Try foo fighters the code is pretty shallow. Hit a few white shots which might the left ramp for mode. Then play the mode which is just hitting a series of colored arrows. Doesn't get much simpler than that.

    Have been checking out FF. It sure looks fun and the reviews have been great.

    Going to TPF tomorrow and hope to see/play it there.

    Are the extra features of the premium a 'must have' and worth the extra cost, over the pro?

    #14 1 year ago

    I understand what you’re asking for but I think there are deep games and simple games, even with the modern games. Off the top of my head DP, STh, TMNT all have fairly simple rules really.

    For the more complex games just start with learning how to start the modes and the mbs. After a while you start to learn all the other bits piece by piece as you get use to what you’ve already learnt. For example GZ is still very enjoyable if you only know how to start the battles and mbs and ignore everything else going on.

    Also if you have a game at home don’t feel ashamed to change some settings to make it easier if that makes it more fun for you. Increase the ball save, stick it on 5 balls, make the extra balls slightly easier to get etc

    #15 1 year ago

    Haggis pinball does for Mermaid edition

    #16 1 year ago

    I’m ‘only’ 39 but I also feel there is way too much complexity often.

    I really like the nineties games (AFM, MM) that are easy to understand but very challenging to complete.

    I also enjoy The big lebowski, Alien and Deadpool. The first 2 still have the nineties approach: some missions, some achievements and then wizard mode.

    GnR for example or the hobbit are nice games but inpossible to finish ever with an endless amount of modes.

    But I understand that in a huo setting it is different when owners want to keep a game for a few years and want to be able to try other modes and strategies for a long time.
    So it is personal I guess and there are enough sorts of games for everyone’s taste.

    #17 1 year ago

    You can just ignore the rules and shoot whatever you feel like shooting. You are not accomplishing anything by beating a pinball game.

    #18 1 year ago

    I only have room for two games, so I always look for deep rules when considering a game to buy, I'm not playing for high scores, I'm more about modes where I'm "told" where to shoot which adds to replayability, new discovering and a sense of progress towards a goal.
    I also like playing simple fun shooters on location, like the classics AFM, MM but I wouldn't get one at home, it just lacks that replayability factor.

    I also like a game with good flow, where the rules encourage to flow without having to stop all the time and think about your next shot.

    I think Dialed In has that perfect balance it can be played in many different ways which makes it a keeper at home

    #19 1 year ago

    I actually like the idea of choosing different ways to play. Whether it’s difficulty, depth, alternate rules, special objectives or whatnot. But Not good good for location play. And merely having those choices is an expansion of complexity, admittedly. Thinking of a game like Godzilla, I often pass because I don’t want to play for an hour. But if it had some other way to play that was quicker and didn’t necessitate me going into the menus that would be nice. I hear they may implement KOTM as a quick play mode. That’s something like this.

    #20 1 year ago
    Quoted from rogerdodger:

    Hi Guys:
    I know nothing about coding a pinball machine but for the folks who are not advanced players (like me), why won't the manufacturers program a machine with both simple code and deep code, where we could decide which one we prefer to play?
    I would have thought that when programming deep, to make a simple version also, would not take much extra time.
    I love the look of Godfather (haven't played it yet) but, with so many people commenting on how deep the code is, I'm not sure it's for me.
    I'm 74 now (bought my first pin when I was 15) and, to be honest, I don't have the patience to learn (or even remember) the ultra-deep rules.
    Any suggestions that would help me understand the deeper, more complex games, without having to go back to college?
    Roger

    Try stranger things or guardians both deep, and very straightforward. Pulp fiction I expect to be this way too.

    #21 1 year ago

    My main wish down this road is that eventually technologies like Stern’s insider connect could be used to change difficulty settings per player on the fly so a game in a home setting could allow for two players of vastly different skill levels to progress thru similarly.

    As is today on deep/complex machines, if it’s “too much” for you, to some degree you could change that with settings.

    #22 1 year ago

    Yeah I really feel this with my Star Wars. I love the deep code and am finally figuring out how to play it after two months. But often I just want get in and play and not think about the multipliers and paths and select characters and bonuses for each ball. I wish it just had a simple setting where everything that slows game play was turned off; no character select, no skill shot select, no mission select, no mystery room 5 second spinning wheel; just let all those be randomly selected instantly and the game goes forward. For a great player those things all add depth to the game, but for most players they are just confusing and slow everything down. Would be so nice to just put in on "straight play" mode and just play a fast and furious game of pinball.

    #23 1 year ago

    Munsters was an attempt to go back to the 90's simple code where the main goal is racking up points and major moments like the super jackpot collection. People hate it on here but everyone who comes over loves to play it even my pinball friends. Given the nastiness that was spewed about it I seriously doubt Stern will give it another go any time soon.

    #24 1 year ago
    Quoted from JakeFAttie:

    ... no skill shot select, no mission select, no mystery room 5 second spinning wheel; just let all those be randomly selected instantly and the game goes forward. For a great player those things all add depth to the game...

    So random Mystery awards are too high tech for people now?

    Quoted from C0untDeM0net:

    Munsters was an attempt to go back to the 90's simple code...

    Beatles did it great.

    #25 1 year ago

    Basic rulesets can be fun no doubt. Would I pay todays NIB prices of $8k - $12k+ for a game with a basic ruleset? HELL NO! Lol

    #26 1 year ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    ...Would I pay todays NIB prices of $8k - $12k+...

    to be fair Beatles might have invented that pricing

    If I had the cash I'd pay it though. Great game is a great game.

    #27 1 year ago

    The point is, since it's all software now, this could just be an optional mode in the menu's. "Fast Play Mode." Just added, not instead of.

    something like this could be added to all the modern sterns through a code update.

    And it's not that the Mystery award is "too high tech," it's that it interrupts game play for ten seconds.

    #28 1 year ago
    Quoted from JakeFAttie:

    And it's not that the Mystery award is "too high tech," it's that it interrupts game play for ten seconds.

    It probably takes 3 seconds not ten. Same amount or less than any mode start or extra ball animation thats been happening since 1992. Sure, its not skip-able which we all wish it was!
    But sure a mode to dumb everything down...is the juice worth it to them?

    #29 1 year ago
    Quoted from JakeFAttie:

    The point is, since it's all software now, this could just be an optional mode in the menu's. "Fast Play Mode." Just added, not instead of.

    Stern barely finishes the regular software these days, no way they're going to put this much effort into something most people do not need or want. It's not as simple as you think to rewrite the whole game to eliminate or automate features.

    If you want a basic Star Wars gameplay experience, get the DE, Hankin or Trilogy SW games. Or the Stern SW home game. Plenty of options out there.

    #30 1 year ago
    Quoted from Hayfarmer:

    Rush does have a" home "code in it, makes the game much easier.

    I wish Rush, the music and meaning itself had a simple code on it also. Some of their songs take years to fully understand. At least for me.

    #31 1 year ago

    You can. Good rules design is difficult though! This is a goal for many manufacturers, not always achieved.

    #32 1 year ago

    Guys.... thanks for all of these interesting points of view.

    Just back from TPF and feeling tired, so off to play a couple of games on my 'Scared Stiff'!

    Simple game, with simple rules, which is perfect for when I just want to knock the ball around!

    Mind you, that 'Turn out the lights and get Scared Stiff' finale never gets old!

    Simpler machines, from simpler times. Just right for us old guys!

    #33 1 year ago
    Quoted from rogerdodger:

    Simpler machines, from simpler times. Just right for us old guys!

    How long are the mystery award animations?

    Reply

    Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

    Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

    Donate to Pinside

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


    This page was printed from and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

    Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.