I think most people know what protect the hive means, the question was more why you are using it in this context?

You offered your thoughts, the majority disagreed with you and gave reasoned explanations of their thoughts, that's not protecting the hive - that's indicating that you're in the minority.

One thing we both agree on though is that you "say the most mundane thing".

The whole screen being the chocolate factory is awesome (great animation work) but the way clips from the movies are used in Wonka is rather unappealing. More often then not movie clips are played on a loop with no actor audio which limits theme integration. Then there's times where you hear Willy Wonka say something and it's being played over a different scene where Wonka is talking with no actor audio. Its all a bit odd, I'm not sure if it's due to some licensing restriction.

Hey guys, not sure if you've heard...

Darscot is a programmer!

What's "snarky/sarcastic" about telling someone - literally - that their ideas are terrible, and that their "provocative" thread is really just noob clickbait we see once a month?

Seems like a straight shooter like you would appreciate that kind of honesty.

"snark" would be me suggesting that the bubble just may burst!

I for one have always enjoyed the video modes on DMD machines. They're often humorous and pretty short, so I never felt that they interfered with the actual pinball gameplay.

I don't care about pinball growing. Maybe it should just gracefully die off, who knows. Truth is it would be fine for a long time with nothing but the games that have already been made. Pursing growth doesn't lead to better games, better community, or much more than $1000 toppers as far as I can tell.

Pinside isn't better for having a bunch of rich people who only buy new in box games and are afraid to take the glass off before they start asking what the next new in box game they should buy is. Oh look, they made a poll.

I came back to read the Avengers threads because I was actually excited about a new Keith game. The amount of whining has already turned me off. And yes, plenty of it from new members. They've learned to complain, not sure what else they're really learning here.

If you want to spend your time wishing for online leaderboards and trophies and bitching that comic book animations aren't Disney level quality then have at it. But not how I want to waste my time.

I realize my experience working on a single game doesn't make me some kind of expert god, but everyone who's got more experience than me has already stopped posting here because who wants to engage with the community when you just get shit on every day? So I tried, and has there been a single thoughtful response to anything I wrote? Nope.

People would rather rehash the tired "Pinball should be Call of Duty" argument for the five hundredth time.

Well Darscot sent me a PM, as I was in the process of replying he deleted it.

So I'll post my response here.

"It makes not a jot of difference that you are a software engineer - what it does tell me is that you aren't working in marketing.
I don't understand what you mean by games hanging on the wall - I just have trophies - all my games are set up for playing.

The main difference between Fifa (and any video game) is that EVERY iteration of the game in every different living room around the world is the same or at the very least can be set the same, making comparisons between scores true and meaningful.

2 pinball machines set up next to each other play differently based on any number of things, steepness, left to right tilt, tilt settings, outlane settings, difficulty settings, etc. These are all things that the user themselves can control and alter EXACTLY- then you've got things the user can control to a certain degree, switch gaps, polish, choice of rubbers, etc. THEN take into account things that can't be changes by the user, thickness of clearcoat, natural warps in playfield, dimples, wear, minute differences in positioning of ramps or posts and you'll soon see that no 2 machines ever play the same - as such comparing scores between just 2 machines is futile, let alone trying to set up a highscore table across all games.

Pinball Arcade has these goals and a universal highscore table - that does work - BUT at the end of the day it is a video game of a pinball machine - not an actual mechanical pinball machine with all it's nuances and randomness - the very reasons why many people prefer pinball over video games.

Dutch Pinball, when they released Bride of Pinbot 2.0, did exactly that. Set up highscore tables, achievements, trophies, which are all uploaded onto their site - it didn't attract masses of additional sales and didn't work out - there's existing proof that it doesn't work.

As for CrazyLevi - I disagree with a lot of what he says, and often the manner he says it, but in this instance I agree with him 100%.

Wayne"

The people telling others "your ideas suck", "that would be the end of pinball", "that's not pinball", etc do more harm to this community then people simply discussing what they would like to see in regards to technology in future games. There's nothing wrong with saying online leaderboards would be cool, or stats tracking would be nice to have. The amount of negative comments in game threads over artwork, animations, quality, etc are mostly due to the outrageous prices Stern, JJP and other manufacturers are now charging for pins. As prices have gone up so have expectations.

I still think Stern and or JJP could develop a fun online platform that features leaderboards, contests, stats tracking, and player profiles all tied to a "JJP Player ID" or "Stern Player ID" account that is accessible through an app, charge $100 for a year for it, and in the process make a profit plus grow the hobby.

But as above, Dutch Pinball did this with Bride 2.0 - it didn't grow the hobby, and it there was no subscription - so no opportunity for ongoing revenue.

As for stats tracking and the like, maybe once Scorbit takes hold (if it ever does) these kind of figures can be released.

The way the Op pushed his thoughts and opinions, was that Stern and JJP are stupid for not doing this, and anyone who disagrees with him is also stupid. Despite the fact that majority of people opposing his view have more experience of pinball over the years and what attracts them, and others.
By then making things personal, changing tack entirely (animation quality becomes online trophies!) is what could really "harm to the community" - if it were not for the fact that he's basically been tagged as a troll with no knowledge. YMMV

There's nothing wrong with saying that they're irrelevant as well, since every game is set up differently and plays totally different. A score on one machine is meaningless to a score on another machine.

The reality is, most people who love pinball love it because it's pinball. 99% of everyone else doesn't understand that it's more than flapping the flippers for 2 minutes. Apps, subscriptions, all this "normal modern gamer" stuff just isn't gonna move the needle in pinball at all.

Saying the idea wouldn't work because Dutch Pinball couldn't get it to work isn't a compelling argument. They could barely build machines that were already paid for. It's intellectual dishonest to say that no one cared when only like 100 people had the possibility to care.

Fine there will never be a global leaderboard. People still just want to play with their friends. It's not that difficult to grasp this, but people want to keep arguing "no you don't actually want the thing you want"

BKSOR is cool and with the topper integration is a Wow. The animations will progress and get better and better and best practices take hold from experience and maybe some trial and error.

Well i don’t know if code in pinball can reach the quality animation of a video game.
But If it is possible, why not having the same quality? I think ACNC, Dialed In, Jurassic Park are really great in the creativity and graphics.
I know a pinball machine is not a video game but you can’t prevent manufacturers to find more pinball fans and if lcd animations development is a way to go then i won’t complain about it.

Cutscene animations in video games are incredibly expensive. Your average CGI animated movie costs well over a million dollars a minute.

In pinball the LCD really isn't that important, it just needs to be filled with "something".

But maybe deeproot will solve this "problem" since they seem to be an art company first, pinball company second.

And the worst part of a game for half the people playing.

The LCD work on BKSOR is amazing, yet still the ungrateful noobs are pissed that they aren't getting Toy Story quality clips for their Extra Ball animation.

I would agree with the person who said that the only thing anybody learns around here is to complain, piss, and moan. Monkey see, monkey do, and when a noob shows up here they quickly find out what kind of threads get the biggest pop; besides new release stuff, they are ALL complaint threads about everything under the sun - prices, playfields, themes, "build quality", animation, rules, code, etc. etc.

There's your "negativity." If I were a young noob looking to make a splash here, I'd surely start a thread titled "Are prices too high with the bubble about to burst as there's no innovation in pinball also why does my playfield dimple is THIS what you call good QC?!"

Surely we have more to offer?

I enjoy cutscenes, it gives me time to take a quick sip of my beer, otherwise I’m instantly hitting both flippers to keep my “game” moving along.

Seems to me the majority of opinions were actually positive. Yes some nitpicking and several people criticizing the artwork. Any creative work will have it's fair share of criticisms.

I think it does matter Aurich, at least the people that have jobs and want to keep them at these pinball manufacturers care about it. Gracefully die off? Come on man!

Growth has absolutely led to better games, LCD's etc. It almost died off around 2008-2009

Sorry, but i want new games for a long time to come. And continued innovation like P3.

But not to worry, there is a LONG pinball runway and getting longer every year.

But they no longer have their "art company", it's pinball or bust.

Why even bother with any innovation? We should all just go back to flipperless machines with score reels.

But seriously, one of the reasons I left NeoGeo forums was the way the community treated new members. Here it can sometimes be more of the same. Some incredibly cranky posters many times just take it out on new members. That's a shame.

True, they must be low on artists considering they let John design that dumb Hammer Tested logo.

My SW (Movie-Edition, not Comic-Edition) has Movie-Clips. That works. But that is the exception for me.

I like, that my AS has cartoon-style-clips and not video-clips from MTV.

The most LCD animations based on movies are not so attractive for me than cartoon style.

So i do not like, what i see on GotG and Munsters, but IM, BKSOR and JP are great.

I've been adding color LCDs and movie clips to virtual pinball games since 2011, and created all the animations for Full Throttle in 2013-14, so I have more experience than anyone in this field I'd say.

My take was just to replicate what a DMD did perfectly.....very quick, very short bursts of visual information, that can be glanced at and understood in a second. Only when holding the ball do you show the player something a bit longer.

Pinball doesn't need complex and expensive animations. Player score and game progress are really the only things players are scanning for in the half-second they lift their eyes from the playfield. Everything else is just padding.

NEVER have movie clips playing for more than a few seconds at a time, and only play very exciting clips that compliment the action on the table. See Alien pinball.

Games should not be designed for spectators, everything should be focused on the player experience. If people want to watch you play, they can watch you play.....not stare at a TV in the backglass.

Then why LCD? Why not going on with dmd?
I’m very happy with ACNC, BKSOR, Dialed in, JP lcd animations. I think it should be the standard quality.

Fair enough. Truth be told, I was late opening this thread because I felt I already knew the answer. Basically what you said - time and money: Pinballs are small volume products which can not compete with the large volumes of PC and PS games created. When the LCD screens started coming out I figured the pinball manufacturers are going to have to spend a lot more resources filling those screens, possibly with the effect of taking funds away from other areas of the game - like the playfield. Not sure if this has happened. I think the manufacturers have done an admirable job filling the screens with life. There were a lot of complaints about Oktoberfest in particular, but I thought it fulfilled its purpose - I particularly liked the frothy beer filling the screen at the end of a ball. When I first heard about Dialed In my thoughts were about how on earth will they fill up that enormous screen when they have no film clips like with WOZ and TH. I still think they did an amazing job with it - I really like the scrolling cityscape. DMD and alphanumeric can't provide much information so much of the game status needs to be displayed with the inserts - this is changing with LCD screens - the screen is becoming a more integrated aspect of the game. It appears Willy Wonka took this to a new level by putting a great deal of game status on the screen. I do see a certain danger with the screens playing a larger and larger role in game play and I'm not sure I like this. I am not aware of current LCD games having video modes - which is good - we could really move into the fusion of video game and pinball. I have also wondered if a video game producer and pinball manufacturer might team up which might yield much more "high quality" videos - it might be quite a bit of work to coordinate video game sequences with playfield effects - I cannot judge. I am not sure what to think about your comment that you would like to see more creativity in the screen design/animations. I am not sure where your thoughts are here - I would be quite interested in your perspectives. I find the screens up to now to be pretty creative, of course some more than others. The expectation side of the coin is really tricky. Everybody will be different, but since we are used to high resolution, life like animations in video games, it is, of course, not hard to make the comparison and have high expectations on the pinball game screen content - even if your left brain half says it's too costly.

I was also intrigued by your statement "Levi is just the Jiminy Cricket of Pinside's conscience, saying things so everyone else does have to". I think there might be a pinside conscience and I was asking myself if I felt represented by this. Jury is still out on this. Maybe it's Levi maybe not. I had to look into Wikipedia to refresh my Disney knowledge "Jiminy Cricket was transformed for the Disney adaptation into a comical and wisecracking partner who accompanies Pinocchio on his adventures" - I assume this is what you mean.

I think JJP animations look the best in the industry as JP DeWin is so damn talented and great at his job.

What I imagine his reaction being if ever confronted about his animation work lol.

ALIEN has the best screen work in all of pinball so everyone should just listen to Aurich, at least on this subject.

Concentrate less on animation and more on delivering information to the user.

For example, the tiny scores on most Stern games is criminal.

THIS.

Concentrate less on animation and more on delivering information to the user.
For example, the tiny scores on most Stern games is criminal.</blockquote

Tiny score screens on SW/IMDN I thought were really good. I have a BKsor now and it literally givers you no instructions at any time...it's weird. Maybe that's the old school feel they're going for?

Here's a thought experiment, if you took your favorite modern game, and had a sleek more minimal ui, that clearly displayed score, mission and mode progress, and any other information that was relevant to the gameplay, would you use that in lieu of modern animation suites and more stylized displays?

Another plus for DMD was the aspect ratio. Wiiiiiiiiiide. Perfect to display a big ass million/billion point score. Perfect to display some text telling you about rules or bonuses. Easy to glance, read, and absorb. I know it was cheaper to just use stock 16:9 LCDs...but the wide DMD ratio is just perfect for pinball.

Wow there's a big fuckin surprise.

Lol. Poor Panzer.

Panzer thinks you should expect more out of your $6k-9k pinball machine.

Or so he says. 40 fucking times a day.

Like toys...don't forget the toys.

I am not sure if I would trade any LCD, and their animations, for the display on my MBr.

A more focused screen like that might be the best of both worlds. They need to be more deliberate about what information they show on it, but they can still show fun high quality animations. A smaller screen is also easier to glance at

16X9 makes the most sense, as most of your existing assets from licencors are going to be 16X9.

Doing a LCD screen with a different ratio just seems to be asking to make your life more difficult.

Makes sense, but stern keeps taking liscensing deals without getting a ton of assets. Framing animation in a wider ratio seems harder, but framing ui and text seems easier

41 times Yes, customers should get a lot of game for $6k - $9k+.

THIS 1000%. There is no punch or life to any of it.

I don't know why but the tiny scores make me feel like I' got 5 points during the whole game. Its not exciting.

Yeah a lot of fun, not just toys and flash and waiting with shitty themes and in some cases a lack of substance.