Levi, you often cop this diminishing and negating attitude, (sometimes just in general) but frequently towards people that are new to the board. What kind of welcome to a community is that? Rather than respect their post and inquiry, you take a superior attitude.

Maybe people you consider newbs/noobs/whatever, might God forbid, have experience offline, and not just on a forum? As if being on a forum for years makes a person wiser. It seems more often than not, it just gives a person attitude more so than umm....empathy?

Your icon is one that ideally helps others to invoke and practice empathy. Yet on this forum your 'tude offers often anything but. So fun..!

If I don't vibe with someone, at the worst I'll try simply to respect them or maybe at best, like with someone like yourself over the last couple of years, I'll try to see what their perspective is and why. But man...this feels like a failing process.

Do you act like this towards people in public, when things are "normal"? I really hope not, because the schtick feels abrasive more than conversational, and people don't always react kindly to that, especially now in such an increasingly reactive culture.

To the point of animation and overall LCD Integration, people seem to often state how they want to expaaaaaaand the userbase and demographics, (To at the very least help keep pinball relevant, and ideally GROW) well...younger folks are being routinely nurtered and raised by tablets, phones, etc. at an alarmingly young age. That familiarity has a greater chance of drawing them towards vibrant, energized, and thoughtfully designed UI's on the backbox more so than push them away. Mechanical devices are probably far more foreign and alien than flat screened touchpads/displays.

I think R&M knocks it out of the park. Yes it's TV clips but I don't hold that against them. In fact those clips (and SW movie clips) are probably the best use of displays ever (consider what wee had with Iron Man or SM or Tron) vs R&M.

I would say R&M is the best use of assets on the display ever.

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This is actually quite accurate in regards to how I feel about pinball. I really dont want innovation in any way that would change pinball into something that is very different from what I enjoy about the game. Some of the games that have come out within the last 10 years are fantastic and rival my favorite era (the pinnacle of pinball) the B/W of the 90s. Never thought I'd say that but it's TRUE. They've modernized the games without taking away what makes pinball, pinball.

Call it being old school or just being old, but I'm not looking for the next big thing in pinball that will transform the game into something different.
I think in recent years pinball has progressed well enough as it is without something like social media being incorporated into the games.

I bet none of those are appealing to most pinheads. I don't think they would affect sales at all, Pinball popularity? Nah.

I don't watch that show but know enough about it to realize what they did with theme integration is impressive.

Man I should know better. This place just goes protect the hive over the most mundane of conversation. This cost to much money, no one wants this, do not change pinball. Man this place can be miserable. I have no idea what is so threatening about stuff that has been routine for decades.

Pinball is about the game under the glass. I barely have time to watch the screen. They are PLENTY good.

What does this mean?

And this.

I don't think anyone is saying "Don't change pinball" I personally have no interest in leaderboards and all that but if it didn't increase cost much and enough people want it then fine. I would much rather have the change be in the form of something that affects gameplay. A new style ramo or spinner, innovation in lighting and sound. stuff like that. Online? no interest at all.

Edit
I meant ramp obviously but just had to leave "New Style Ramo"

Look, there are so many bad ideas that get regurgitated here on a regular basis from people who don’t realize how lucky we all are the pinball industry still exists and that their awful ideas would help drive the industry back to death’s door if actually acted upon. I’m just trying to bring a little reality into these discussions. People need to understand why these ideas are terrible or they’ll keep repeating them.

Maybe they should just add a jack for cable or dish? Then we can watch reality tv, while we tweet and compete on social media. A mini fridge where the coin door is and possibly a crockpot topper would make pins not only innovative, but theyd be the ultimate tailgating must have.
Why is Stern not seeing the light on these genius ideas?

Protect the hive, is a reference to hornets when you poke the nest. Say the most mundane thing and the pinside regulars will come buzzing out.

The stuff I'm talking about is routine in basically ever interactive media for the last 25 years.

All of this dramatically affects how it feels to play the game and creates depth and a reward system. It just gives you more reasons to push start one more time. I find hilarious that all these pinball junkies act like that no one in pinball enjoys that feeling or would want to increase it.

Nothing I am talking about has a damn thing to do with social media.

P.S. There is a very loud vocal group that appears to have no idea what "online" even is. They just know they hate it and if it comes to pinball the industry will die.

People LOVE tailgating. With very little effort, pinball machines could also roast a brisket. get out of the Stone Age Stern !!

Hmm. Crazy...Levi....ty?

Yeah, well we can make amends over that inaginary conversation while we are the only two sitting all the way across from each other having an imaginary beer at the Stillers at Giants game.

I get that. Sometimes it just comes off a bit, condescending? Dude has a point. So do you! This is what a forum is about. I understand both sides, and....oh shit, halftime, gotta go walk to pick up my food at the local pizzeriaaaaaaa!

If they time it right it sure as hell will. Sort of like how different programmers work on different parts of the code.

I thought you were a programmer?

aren’t you ever surly on Monday ?!?!

I think everyone knows what "online" is. We are online right now. Take it easy with the analogies, its a game. You don't have to hate "Online" to not want it in ur pinball experience. There's no movement of "anti online pinball hornets" Damn that BC weed is strong.

That's there for me without it. Listen I hope u get want u want but don't blame the rest of us cause we don't care. I also don't see what that has to do with animations which are pretty great to me from all manufacturers.

Pixar is over $1m a minute. The Trex multiball stuff on JP2 is probably at least $20k a minute. They could easily spend $500k on animations... but is it worth it?

I have to say, I've had a lot of laughs from the last two pages. @crazylevi, I love your snark...TOP NOTCH! It always is.

@darscot, you are putting up one hell of a fight. Kudos! But I have to side with the naysayers on this one...calmly though.

Sure, there's nothing wrong with wanting app-type game extras added to pinball for those that play online app/video games as well. I think what you're trying to argue, however, doesn't hold water. Getting non-pinball game players who pay $60 for a video game or $10 for an app (even a $1000 phone) to buy a $5500 pinball machine (if Pros would get the functionality) is going to take more marketing skill than just adding online leaderboards, etc.

These things may get a pin-buyer to get a game they may not otherwise, because that buyer is internet addicted (don't get hung up on that word, I just couldn't think of another description). But who's to say they buy NIB...the only thing pinball companies care about. The thought of adding online bells and whistles doesn't irritate me, but will it create a wave of NEW NIB pin-buyers? I just don't think so.

JMO but nothing will. This pinball thing is riding high because the arcade kids are now in a position to be able to buy games, video and pinball for their homes. I think it dies with us. Young people might embrace pinball via VR but most kids today and I said most aren't buying physical pinball machines in 20 or 30 years. We aren't far away from video games being indistinguishable from reality, at that point those kids will have no interest. I'm 45, not planning on stopping buying NIB for many many years, hopefully I'm wrong and young people embrace this hobby, I just don't see it. Thus who gives a shit about online, that's why it hasn't been implemented already.

Yes for simplicity in this conversation I am a programmer. I do regret ever posting in this type of topic, I forget the the vast majority of people have no idea what online brings behind the scenes. Even if Stern never delivered a single online feature to the end user, the data collection alone would make huge improvements to their product. It's about creating an experience, its about giving all your user more ways to engage and giving them more rewards. That is what it means to add online connectivity. The problem is everyone is an expert even though they clearly have no experience in the field. Donkeys like Levi just endless spew the same stupidity and people think it makes him smart. I'll probably get modded for not being nice to him now.

If you lived in a shipping container you’d be grumpy too...

Online player profiles with leaderboards and stats tracking that can be synced to any modern game at any location are bad ideas for pinball? No, that would only bring more people into the hobby and make players want to play more.

Stern, JJP, whoever could charge $100 a year for an online subscription if they made the system deep enough and people would pay it. Have a mobile app to view your stats, friends stats, leaderboards, etc. Something like that done right would be a hit. I bet it will come eventually.

Thank goodness Kodak decided to continue to focus on film instead of that digital crap, that worked out well for them!

If I was properly surly, I'd have spent my offday drinking quality, and not so quality, beer all day rather than doing responsible things.....ugh.

Animations are one thing, but for me those are more complementary to a really refined, somewhat static, GUI. What irked me most about the Avengers reveal, was the frenetic back and forth between the GUI and animation modes.

For me JP de Win, balances these functions better than anyone else in the modern biz. I appreciate Pirates have an animated, yet somewhat static GUI that conveys information as it develops, and spices things up with not overly frequent GUI breaking animations. WoZ was overkill. Hobbit balanced things better, but still a bit of overload. Then down the road Pirates just did everything right, along with Thiel's sound design. The two undercredited masters of that game.

Deadpool and JP2, elevated Stern's literal game. Imaginative, and fun, the Stern artist's moved forward in those design elements. Elvira also created a great balance.

At this point Avengers is rough in some ways regarding the backbox work, and while I enjoy the character icons, they are from a different artist, and for me that lack of cohesiveness is a fundamental design knock, along with an overall blandness to the trophy room as their featured interface.

Anywho, this is the biggest era of "innovation" to pinball, at this point. Unless deeproot does some compelling hardware redesigns, animations, the GUI, and the LCD backdrop is now a backbone of what pinball design will be from now onward. Love it, or leave it, this is pinball as much as the hardware.

Sidepoint, with all of the LCD naysay on this forum and this particular thread, god awful animations "aside", why did people get so up in arms over Houdini, if people on here seemingly feel pinball is ONLY down below?

Man this got way off topic. Someone made a point about how modern displays haven't really been utilized in major new ways that offer features that would have been impossible on DMDs (Game changing features, not just stuff like being able to play movie clips in HD instead of via dots) and it turned into yet another argument about whether or not leaderboards should be added to pins.

I'm trying to think, what *are* some truly innovative things that could potentially be done only with modern displays (In the back box)? Really the only thing I can think of that's actually been done is the (Partial) elimination of instant info. There's got to be some new and interesting ideas that are at least worth trying though.

I have some great ideas, but I don't want to air them here. I want to wait until I get a few million for them.

But, I'll give you a hint on one of my ideas: "Air fryer"....who doesn't like wings!!! amiright?

I would also have kept the 4th flipper on the hobbit. They f'ed up taking it out.

I'm gonna let u in on a little secret about this hobby. We are old timers. Its not that ur wrong its just ur preaching to a demographic that really has no interest in this. Do you honestly think Stern or any of the other manufacturers haven't contemplated this option? There's very little demand and thus no point. It would be like going to a old folks home and trying to explain to them the importance of owning a smart phone. "U know u can talk to ur friends, and play games and take pictures of the trips ur not going on, and the app's, ur missing out 90 year Henry"

The experience is there already and doesn't require any tweaking for enhanced engagement. I guess I could be wrong.......... No I'm absolutely right.

That was unavoidable.

I believe virtual reality will ultimately kill the pinball hobby (manufacturing) within the next 10 to 12 years. Ive been saying it for years, but I have little doubt about what is coming down the pike.
If you want innovation, that's the place to look.

I believe virtual reality will ultimately kill the pinball hobby (manufacturing) within the next 10 to 12 years. Ive been saying it for years, but I have little doubt about what is coming down the pike.
If you want innovation, that's the place to look.

I agree 100% and I heard u the first time.

Saying this multiple times, doesn't make it more or less true..!

Just in case it does.....

I'm winning the lottery tomorrow, and handing out free pinballs to ALLLLLL of you!

I'm winning the lottery tomorrow, and handing out free pinballs to ALLLLLL of you!

(Not machines. Just pinballs.)

This is right on Wes. A few drinks have really helped clear up your thinking!

Some of these guys would happily go back to a DMD.

If Stern and all of them want to "expand the user base", they better keep moving the graphics and LCD integration forward. Why does Stern go to CES? They say it's not to sell pinball machines but promote the "lifestyle brand".

As they say, "innovate or die".

I'd like any of them to get to the quality of what Alien is regarding LCD integration and sound. Thank you David Thiel for that!

I think better explanation of rules (which is bundled in with instant info) would be really helpful. There is a hidden language to pinball, where games reference the code structure of older games to explain scoring, but newer players don't have that background knowledge. Dmds can't really express complex rules all at once, but younger players are used to quickly absorbing tutorials from screens, and I think it would help them understand where the fun really comes from.

The Hobbit has a BIG problem with this statement.

Animations? Pins have animations? Who has time to watch the lcd. When I’m playing, my nose is on the glass, my eyes are on the ball and I still suck.

Fun fact: Every time people use the word "animations" instead of "animation", it makes animators over 40 cry.

As for display animation, B/W and Stern had excellent animators working within the limitations of the DMD, due to one word: TIMING. Timing is what makes animation fun, pop, and leave a lasting memory. It's not about resolution or polygons or looking like AAA video games...it's timing. Take a look at what's going on with the animation of Metallica, AC/DC, Simpsons, Family Guy, MM, AFM, MB (or any B/W game, really)...from an animators standpoint, everything you see "plays"...even though the limitations are dots, you know exactly what you're looking at, and the timing is excellent & memorable. The comedy is sold...the action is sold..because the timing is tight and well animated. Timing is what's generally missing in today's pinball display animation. It's either even/floaty "flash" style, or weightless wonky 3D models. This is what makes modern pinball animation look dated: funky timing.

To be fair the amount of new people who say stupid things without taking the time to understand the community or the hobby seems to just keep rising. I just tune it all out generally, one reason why I don't post much these days, but I don't blame anyone for getting cranky over it. Levi is just the Jiminy Cricket of Pinside's conscience, saying things so everyone else does have to.

I'm not an animator, but I have worked on a pinball game display, and I have a background in UI and UX and design, so I have thoughts on this topic. Rather than add to the yelling I'll post them.

I think it all breaks down into roughly these buckets:

1) Budget
2) Time
3) Creativity
4) Assets
5) Expectations

Budget is simple enough, even if you don't know what the true costs are. Good people are hard to find, and they usually like to be paid for their time. The more people and more time your concept takes to execute the more money it costs. There are finite limits you can't break if you want to finish your game and not go out of business. Pinball might be expensive, but the units sold are very low, and the physical costs are very high. Any video game that sold as much as a modern pin would be a colossal failure. It's pointless to compare them.

Time is just the ever present bitch hanging over everything. Time is money, but time is also getting things out the door so you have a product. Regardless of ambition or even budget if you don't have the time you don't have it. It will differ from company to company, but most can't afford years to work on a single game's animation.

Creativity is the wild card. Most LCD pin displays are in my opinion not very creative. That doesn't mean they're bad, it just means they're very formulaic and don't take many risks or try new ideas. If you don't have a huge budget or a ton of time you can make up for that with creative thinking. You're not making a video game, you're not making a movie, and you don't need to make the same game your competitors are making. There's more to animation than 3D rendered scenes or comic book frames or slot machine style graphics. But you'd hardly know that from looking at pinball.

Assets change everything about your approach. On Alien we had things we could use, and things we couldn't. Mostly that was actors we could have on screen or not. That dictated everything about our approach (along with the tech we had available, we had to work within the limits of the software). What we made from scratch, what we edited from films, how it all came together, that was about the assets. Original games come with no assets generally. That's both easier and harder. When it comes to actually filling minutes on a screen though it's mostly harder. Pre-baked assets can be used in a lot of ways, but they're a very huge and useful crutch.

Expectations are the hidden cost you gotta factor. If you're doing 3D graphics for instance, well, people are going to compare them to video games and movies. And probably find you lacking, since you don't have the team or budget. This is where creativity can help, if you don't follow established formulas it's easier to stand on your own and stand out.

There's more to it than that. How you display information, scores, etc, but that's not generally about animation per se. Balancing those 5 things isn't easy. And I'm leaving out a very important part that's not directly animation, and that's the hardware/software support for your ideas. What can you do dynamically in real time, what's pre-canned? There's a budget and a time cost for that too. Engineering time, code development, graphic hardware in the game, etc.

I don't think budgets, time, or assets are going to meaningfully change. People should probably change their expectations. And I'd like to see companies be more creative.

All new games are with lcd now. Great lcd animations are a selling point, maybe for new pinball fans
many pinball fellows don’t care about your alpha numeric. it does not call into question their interest value. Hard to compare pinball era (and useless), just live our time

I don't agree with this attitude - if pinball is to grow then new people have to get into the hobby. If people new to the hobby can't ask questions or say things which are considered by some to be "stupid", then where does this leave us ? I also don't have sympathy for the "insiders" getting "cranky". Pinside is a place to express your opinions, ask questions, share knowledge, learn and have fun. If some people have fun being cranky then fine. But if you are getting irritated at "new people who say stupid things without taking the time to understand the community or the hobby" maybe you should ask yourself why this is - what danger do you see? - but otherwise, it is very easy to simply ignore certain threads - don't open them, don't read them - no harm no foul. I used to find the arrogance of some "insiders" or "old timers" irritating. Now I just find it kind of amusing.

And by the way, I liked the rest of your post - nicely written and helpful - thanks for that !

I'd like Stern of JJP to get the rights to re-make that game. As is. A few minor changes are fine, I wouldn't care if they had to tweak it so its in a standard body, whatever. It really sucked that it died on the vine. I'd love to at least play one.

Time to fix ur translator.
What?
Please re read my post and this time, think before u type anything. I don't even know where to begin, maybe where I wasn't aware that all games are LCD now, no lets address this "your alpha numeric" actually I can't. That's how ridiculous it is. I prefer the LCD to any of the previous displays, who wouldn't? The point was it doesn't matter to me, if the gameplay is great its the last thing on my list of must haves with pinball. I not on a mission to bring back "Alpha Numeric" displays.

The display is why I canceled my Wonka order. It disapppinted me so much it kinda ruined the game for me. Woz is the opposite I really thought it helped you get engrossed in being inside the game. Quality time spent on the display is important.

What don't you like about Wonka? I don't own the game, but I have thought the film clips maybe get old. I kind of like the way they have integrated so much information about game status into the screen.

Only 4 people, but you get the point.

I could really care less about what is on the screen animation-wise. I am watching the ball and playfield, and the screen is only useful for showing score and progress. If I want to watch a movie, i'll sit down and turn the TV on.

No - please provide a specific example, just 1 will do to start with, which you say has been 'proven' to work, but later when asked backtrack saying 'you could not provide any details'.
If you can't back up your statements - it's all just hot air