(Topic ID: 236646)

Why are MM, AFM and MB consistently ranked the top 3

By cantbfrank

5 years ago


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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Budman
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    29
    #50 5 years ago

    They’re the best games. Period. They’re the perfect blend of great physical design & gameplay/rules - all coded by Lyman Sheats...the master of pinball rules design. He always knows how to make a game fun for newbs, with nuance for pros. He knows how to choreograph a game. You don’t know it while you’re playing, but it’s like there’s a maestro guiding the experience.

    All the newbs talking about “depth” is getting tiresome. The term has been taken out of context and turned into a a term that = better quality. That is wrong. “Depth = fun” is a MYTH. Some deep games are very fun, like LOTR & TSPP. The depth was part of the rules being so organic to the themes and layouts. It gave these games so much to do, like an adventure, but things that made organic sense to the theme (Shoot shots to collect the fellowship characters in LOTR, for example.). Today’s so-called deep games have Rainman level math memorization & slot machine nonsense that has nothing to do with the layout or theme...modes are “shoot colored shots” rather than having any “fun” reason. Modern “depth” & rules have become sterile and mechanical. Not intuitive & satisfying like the best 90’s pins.

    I didn’t even mention the mechanical features and clever engineering. Great toys, divertors, and other clever features. Stern games just don’t have this anymore.

    Great games are timeless and forever. There’s a reason people still play Pac-Man when modern 4K gaming exists. There will never be an epiphany where the top 90’s games become “bad”.

    #59 5 years ago
    Quoted from phoenixpin:

    There’s also a reason people play modern 4K gaming

    Wasn’t my point. Point: Old great games don’t become bad due to new great games. Good games are forever.

    (also in the case of pinball, new games aren’t great lol)

    #66 5 years ago
    Quoted from rai:

    I’m more interested in why these three and not say CFTBL / IJ / TZ / Sttng. Its hard to point out why these 3 are top and not some others.

    Partially themes....even though they're generally good licenses, they're very focused licenses & don't appeal to everyone. Creech was "old" and not everyone cares about it or the 50's drive in theme. TZ is also an old show that not everyone was into. Not everyone was into STTNG...niche show. IJ a pretty huge mainstream one.

    Then there are the games.

    -CTFBL is probably the one 90's game I hate. The design, the awful music and sound design...everything.
    -IJ is a great IJ game, but compared to the other 90's games, it's not that great. Airballs off the drops, clunky pops area..it's just average. There's an anti-widebody contingent in game ratings.
    -STTNG is a legit phenomenal game....but, some may not like the widebody factor.
    -TZ is divisive. Some think it's the best game ever, some find it too convoluted and confusing. Again -widebody.

    MM, MB, and AFM stay at the top because they are all things for all players. Themes with zero turn-off factor. Layouts that are easy to get a hang of and know what to shoot. Awesome sound packages. Simple to understand rules, nuanced rules and goals to master.

    15
    #69 5 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    100% true. If you look at all the different types or skill level of people that play pinball. I would say 2/3 fall between casual, beginner and hobbyist players. Deep rules are just confusing if you don't have the time to learn the game. I have much more FUN on a new game I can walk up to and figure out most of what's going on in a couple of games.

    The 90's design and rules sensibility knew how to bring you into a game further and further, so it got more satisfying every time you played it. Example, MM:

    Newbs first play: That castle looks cool, I'm gonna hit that. Oh cool, it blows up!

    Playing more and more they discover:
    -Ohh, each time I attack the castle, it's supposed to be a different one, I'm collecting these inserts as I defeat each king.
    -Oooh, I can also hit the ball through the castle wall and that starts a multiball!
    -Ahh, each area is a little quest...save the princess, revolting peasants, jousting, catapult.
    -Ooooh, if I complete one of these, I can then start a multiball!
    -Aaaaaaah haaaaah, if I complete more than one THEN hit the scoop, it's a better multiball!
    -WHOAAAA...If I complete them all before hitting the scoop, I get Multiball Madness

    Then they understand the game, all the concepts, and how to have fun with it and advance toward the final wizard mode. Is it "deep"? ...who cares, it's phenomenal pinball design that allows you to discover organic elements of fun until you totally get it - and then it's still fun to try to use that knowledge to play the game in a fun way.

    That's why these games are top 3.

    When a newb or even a seasoned player walks up to something like Star Wars it's more like:
    -What the F does this button do, I don't get it.
    -What's this wall of text on the screen? Why does any of this matter?
    -What do all these colors mean, why are they always changing?
    -Why do I want to pick 2 modes stacked over one mode or why would I chose to pass?
    -F this game, I gonna go play MM instead.

    #74 5 years ago
    Quoted from phoenixpin:

    But if you were buying a single pin for your home, like I currently have for mine, I don’t care how great those 3 games are - I just could not buy one because they lack the depth.

    The thing is, they do have depth. They're complete rulesets that have a lot to do and fun goals to achieve. Very well thought out, masterful game creation. If any feel "too easy", you can set it up steeper, open outlanes, change settings and always have a challenge. "Back in the day" we used to view games like Back to the Future as "shallow"...because they literally had almost nothing to do. Hit drops, lock ball. Hit drops, lock ball. Hit drops, lock ball...Multiball. Repeat. THAT was shallow. I don't think I'd really consider any game post-Addams as shallow. Sure, when LOTR came out we were like "Oooooh shit, that's DEEEEP" and got a taste for what an ultra deep pinball machine could be...but, it didn't turn everything that came before it "shallow"....nor did it make the LOTR-wannabe games instantly good.

    #84 5 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Right but by your 1st CIU you're just doing the same thing over and over. As awesome as CIU modes are, there's only 4 of them. Throw in some MBs, some great double/quad rules....I mean what else? It's the same issue again with what people think is deep.

    What I like about it and other Lyman games like AC/DC...you can play it how you want. There's not one path to fun or enjoyment or scoring. If you just wanna bash the toys and get Multiballs, you can do that...if you wanna stack modes like Fuel, Justice, S&D, you can do that, if you wanna try to get through the CIU's and go for End of the Line, you can do that. For me, Met's always fun no matter what mood I'm in or how I feel like approaching the game.

    #86 5 years ago
    Quoted from Blitzburgh99:

    Someone above mentioned Whitewater...hugely underrated, IMO. I’ve owned AFM and TZ....both gone. WH2O still here. Charm, great shots, and fun!

    Brilliant & super fun game. I've never been bored of it. I love how the music builds and gets more exciting as you advance rafts...it's a lovely bit of choreography that is really rare in pinball & probably goes unnoticed by most or unappreciated...but it makes me feel more happy/excited as I play. Chris Granner is a genius. WH2O is a perfect game that dispels the "depth=fun myth".

    #89 5 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    I'm just trying to figure out the whole deep thing.
    You think deep = fun is a myth which any actual player knows, My issue is trying to figure out how to put a value on "deep;" it's like a dumb "flow" argument.
    I'm wondering if peopel that are arguing "deep" games aren;t really "deep."

    I think most people today equate "depth" to "content" and/or "complexity" ...but it always seems to be terms in a vacuum...it seems to rarely take the GAME as a whole into account or how all the elements gel into a gameplay experience.

    #98 5 years ago
    Quoted from Dkjimbo:

    While I agree with you for the most part, those three simply are NOT the "best". They may best exemplify simple, approachable, layouts and relatable themes but the best games have far more innovation than any of those three....look at CV, TOTAN, TZ, WW, etc are all far more innovative and original than the holy trinity.

    Well look, they're not MY top 3...it's going to be subjective for everyone...but I was just generalizing why they're in the Top 3. Even if they're not someone's particular favorite Top 3, there are solid reasons for why they're so beloved.

    #99 5 years ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    AFM and MM may be similar. Stern said "Well, watch this!"
    Granted, this was in the "down times" of Stern, but these both were released within one year of one another.
    Shrek and Family Guy. I mean, damn....

    You can actually run either games code on the other!

    -3
    #106 5 years ago
    Quoted from cantbfrank:

    Some interesting points. Reason I brought this up is I bought an MMr. And after about 20 games I got board with it. And I have never gotten board with a game so quickly. So I could not really understand why it ranks so high.
    I will say I do like the callouts in MMr. It ranks up there in the top for the comedy aspect.

    Looks at your ratings...Goatf****rs is #2. Ok, I can explain what’s happening here. In 2016 the space-time continuum split specifically in the pinball hobby & the multiverses got jumbled. You’re from the alternate dimension where horrible games are good & people would beg to buy a $15k unfinished untested Stern. So, while you can’t understand why a perfect game like MM rates high, those of us from the parallel pinball dimension can’t understand how you could rate Goatf****rs so high.

    Mystery solved, carry on everyone!

    #108 5 years ago
    Quoted from sethi_i:

    Then what happened to people like me who like both MM and GB? That must blow your mind....how can anyone who likes a "perfect game" in your mind also like something you hate so much? Inconceivable!!

    When you’re new you like everything

    #122 5 years ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    Why only one? I know not everyone can have large collection but no matter what game it is. If it’s the only one you have it’s going to get boring in a few months. Unless it has sentimental value.

    Great games don’t get boring. Another reason these 3 are tops.

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