Quoted from CrazyLevi:"How long have you been beating your wife?"
I beat the next best thing to my wife.
(Topic ID: 302658)
This topic is closed.
Quoted from Skipnatty:I don't need to read anything related to this thread to know that after the first post, it should have been dumpstered. If you think that there's a conversation worth having based on that trash, you're part of the problem.
There's always the drain thread! Just move along..
Ramona, CA
All this discussion about making things more equitable and what this nebulous "we" need to do to make women "feel safer and more included" kinda implies to me that people think that pinball will be (or should be) a 50/50 gender split. There's nothing wrong with spaces/interests that have more men OR more women in them. I don't want women getting involved in the hobby solely to meet a gender quota, nor would I want more men involved in a predominately female hobby like knitting, solely to meet a gender quota.
Quoted from ElleCayare:All of which my husband can effectively ignore.
Well, your solutions are to either start ignoring them like your husband does (not a good idea), or ask your husband to share some of that responsibility he is ignoring
Quoted from Knxwledge:a predominately female hobby like knitting
“Every price thread turns into a cargument; every thread about women in pinball turns into a knitting analogy” - Pinside Rule 82
Quoted from Knxwledge:Well, your solutions are to either start ignoring them like your husband does (not a good idea), or ask your husband to share some of that responsibility he is ignoring
That's not really the point. I might have not been clear.
I really think that the presence of a Y chromosome gives guys the ability to ignore things that aren't the matter at hand. I have a visceral, physical reaction to my children whining about crap that doesn't matter that my husband does not have. I notice when the chickens make noise in the yard. I think there is a sensory difference in women vs men.
Also, the Y chromosome makes men blind to the location ketchup in the fridge.
This is a phenomenon that I've witnessed with other men. They seem oblivious to things, when in actuality, it just isn't what they are focused in. (I know one man who wasn't paying attention and signed adoption paperwork). I think that women just don't get as focused in on what is essentially a game, and as a result, they don't compete in the tournaments that give rise to the top 25 being men.
There's probably a bit of the fact that there's an intimidation factor of pinball tournaments being more accessible to men. If I were to enter one (I wouldn't think of it, because I'm awful at pinball), I would probably feel out of place. Since I'm one of the few women (were there others? I don't know. I didn't pay attention that closely while scrolling through the responses, I have other stuff going on) who commented on this post, I assume that the community is largely male, and I would expect tournaments to be the same. I was the only girl in my high school physics class, this is not new territory for me.
For the record, my husband does share responsibility, he just isn't the default homeschooling parent.
Quoted from ElleCayare:I really think that the presence of a Y chromosome gives guys the ability to ignore things that aren't the matter at hand. I have a visceral, physical reaction to my children whining about crap that doesn't matter that my husband does not have. I notice when the chickens make noise in the yard. I think there is a sensory difference in women vs men.
I think there’s something to this. Pinball is about hyper-focus, which is why you see so many top players with headphones. Men are more task-based, women are more aware of the world around them. I’ve had my wife come down and look at me for 2 minutes while I’m working, before I even notice she’s there.
I’ve had players ask me to get out of their peripheral vision, and I didn’t understand that until I became a better player.
My firsthand experience with girls playing is limited, but a Pinsider’s wife that plays here occasionally is pretty damn good and when my daughter finds a game she likes, RIP my high scores. But after watching some tournaments online, I have no doubt that there are hundreds and probably thousands of ladies out there that will absolutely destroy me and many others in this thread at pinball. If the question was “why are more men interested in pinball than women?” I think a lot of the answers would be valid. I would guess that the skills of average active m/f players would be pretty close?
Quoted from swampfire:I think there’s something to this. Pinball is about hyper-focus, which is why you see so many top players with headphones. Men are more task-based, women are more aware of the world around them. I’ve had my wife come down and look at me for 2 minutes while I’m working, before I even notice she’s there.
I’ve had players ask me to get out of their peripheral vision, and I didn’t understand that until I became a better player.
Yeah I never thought of this in the male vs female terms but this behavior is also true of me and my wife. I like tasks and get very focused on them and annoyed when interrupted. Wife is much more aware of what’s happening around her.
Quoted from Mbecker:Not much mention of the fact that many women have been harassed, talked down to or mansplained to, stared at creepily by certain other players while playing .. etc. Women only tournaments allow the players to be comfortable, have fun, and (hopefully) not have to deal with that kind of shit. If that kind of stuff never happened, I could see more coed play.
I think the women only leagues are great — I’m sure it is encouraging more to play and compete. I do like the top male/female face off idea for fun at the end of a tournament.
"take it easy francis" --Sgt. Montgomery, from "STRIPES" starring Bill Murray and the other Ghostbuster guy, Raymus (RIP)
It's not sensible to generalize here. To put a blanket statement about the female experience with male hobbyists in Pinball seems like a reach, and also demonizes those of us who are in pursuit of inclusivity and expanding our hobby's appeal to a larger demographic. I think that using the term "mansplained" here is more of an exaggerated statement of a woman's experience than it should be. Men are different than women. Pinball lovers are often nerdy male introverts who love video games and other currently (and historically) niche hobbies and social activities, kinda like pinball. I'd say that, for most of the passionate pinball lovers who stick to their social circles, general social skills may be lacking, but to boldly state that men who love pinball are busy "mansplaining" things to women is a hostile viewpoint, and harshly presumes intent without context. Pinball enthusiasts and video game nerds alike speak their own language when they're surrounded and enveloped in their comfort zones, and sometimes they can be a bit tactless and coarse, but there's no intentional condescension or ridicule in that. Call it a lack of refined social skills all day, but to presume some sort of "lording" over a novice outsider, be them a male or female, is a harsh and judgmental POV.
I've learned so much about true hobbyists in certain circles just listening to members of these weird hobbies and their ever enthusiastic members on the "inside." Sure, they may come off improperly or harshly at times, but I could attribute that more to general "nerdism" than intentional condescension or insult. We should take the source into heavy consideration. In these "nerdy" hobbies like ours, often the most vocal members/insiders are the most isolated in their respective worlds and communities. Those people tend to feel obligated to inform and include newcomers as "tenured" members of the community. Sometimes they are not very graceful. We can all understand and appreciate that these dudes are just trying to initiate more people into the obsession. no ill intent is present.
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:Or maybe it's because the one or two women that might show up at a tournament don't want to be surrounded by a bunch of dudes all night at a bar?
I see your point, to be sure. However, most of the ladies who compete are smart and experienced enough to be well beyond the pretenses of "courtship" type interactions when competing or even enjoying a few games at an arcade. They're competitors, not dating show contestants vying for the affection of a potential mate. Competition doesn't lend itself to that type of perspective, especially when they represent the minority. It's all BUSINESS.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:The reason these tournaments exist is quite simply because a lot of people like them and want them to exist. Women enjoy them and want them, and tournament directors like them because these ladies spend lots of money on them (I speak from personal experience).
Don't you think it's a bit "patronizing" to tell people what they should like and not like? The women's leagues are all organized by women, and so are many of the women's tournaments.
If you are seriously interested in the reasons these leagues and tournaments exist, you should talk to some of the women involved and ask them why they enjoy them, rather than posing the question here, where almost 100 percent of the regulars are men. May I suggest phrasing the question as "Why do you like these leagues and tournaments," instead of the mansplaining/patronizing version which you seem to favor and I'm told they all hate, which is "Isn't pinball a level playing field and isn't it sexist for there to be women's only tournaments?"
I'm wondering if you really care beyond just trying to stir shit up; you said yourself you suck ass at pinball and have zero interest in the tournament scene. So why does this matter to you at all?
You also miss the point: nobody is "sequestered" into anything, women are free to play in any tournament in pinball, and they do.
"take it easy francis" --Sgt. Montgomery, from "STRIPES" starring Bill Murray and the other Ghostbuster guy, Raymus (RIP)
Quoted from HEAD_boss_HOG:"take it easy francis" --Sgt. Montgomery, from "STRIPES" starring Bill Murray and the other Ghostbuster guy, Raymus (RIP)
It's not sensible to generalize here. To put a blanket statement about the female experience with male hobbyists in Pinball seems like a reach, and also demonizes those of us who are in pursuit of inclusivity and expanding our hobby's appeal to a larger demographic. I think that using the term "mansplained" here is more of an exaggerated statement of a woman's experience than it should be. Men are different than women. Pinball lovers are often nerdy male introverts who love video games and other currently (and historically) niche hobbies and social activities, kinda like pinball. I'd say that, for most of the passionate pinball lovers who stick to their social circles, general social skills may be lacking, but to boldly state that men who love pinball are busy "mansplaining" things to women is a hostile viewpoint, and harshly presumes intent without context. Pinball enthusiasts and video game nerds alike speak their own language when they're surrounded and enveloped in their comfort zones, and sometimes they can be a bit tactless and coarse, but there's no intentional condescension or ridicule in that. Call it a lack of refined social skills all day, but to presume some sort of "lording" over a novice outsider, be them a male or female, is a harsh and judgmental POV.
I've learned so much about true hobbyists in certain circles just listening to members of these weird hobbies and their ever enthusiastic members on the "inside." Sure, they may come off improperly or harshly at times, but I could attribute that more to general "nerdism" than intentional condescension or insult. We should take the source into heavy consideration. In these "nerdy" hobbies like ours, often the most vocal members/insiders are the most isolated in their respective worlds and communities. Those people tend to feel obligated to inform and include newcomers as "tenured" members of the community. Sometimes they are not very graceful. We can all understand and appreciate that these dudes are just trying to initiate more people into the obsession. no ill intent is present.
Quoted from HEAD_boss_HOG:"take it easy francis" --Sgt. Montgomery, from "STRIPES" starring Bill Murray and the other Ghostbuster guy, Raymus (RIP)
The correct quote is “Lighten up Francis”.
Quoted from curban:The real answer is rooted much much deeper in our society…male privilege. Everything about pinball from the very beginning has been done to promote an advantage for males. The height of the table. The weight of the table. The themes (not once have I seen a Magic Mike XL theme suggested on these forums!!!). The male familiarity with balls and rubbers. I could go on.
We’re not better, but the game has been designed/evolved (conscientiously or not) to provide an advantage to male players. And yet…some women still dominate men competitively despite this inherent privilege we have!!?!
Before hitting the downvotes, please consider these comments at least somewhat satirical…and then downvote!
I only downvoted because the words "male privilege" were in your post. I like what you said about balls and rubbers tho
Quoted from ElleCayare:That's not really the point. I might have not been clear.
I really think that the presence of a Y chromosome gives guys the ability to ignore things that aren't the matter at hand. I have a visceral, physical reaction to my children whining about crap that doesn't matter that my husband does not have. I notice when the chickens make noise in the yard. I think there is a sensory difference in women vs men.
Also, the Y chromosome makes men blind to the location ketchup in the fridge.
This is a phenomenon that I've witnessed with other men. They seem oblivious to things, when in actuality, it just isn't what they are focused in. (I know one man who wasn't paying attention and signed adoption paperwork). I think that women just don't get as focused in on what is essentially a game, and as a result, they don't compete in the tournaments that give rise to the top 25 being men.
There's probably a bit of the fact that there's an intimidation factor of pinball tournaments being more accessible to men. If I were to enter one (I wouldn't think of it, because I'm awful at pinball), I would probably feel out of place. Since I'm one of the few women (were there others? I don't know. I didn't pay attention that closely while scrolling through the responses, I have other stuff going on) who commented on this post, I assume that the community is largely male, and I would expect tournaments to be the same. I was the only girl in my high school physics class, this is not new territory for me.
For the record, my husband does share responsibility, he just isn't the default homeschooling parent.
I like your perspective and insight. You've identified a couple of key differences between men and women and offered on the result of those differences.
men and women are obviously VASTLY different creations with God given inclinations, instincts, and tendencies which affect most of the members of the genders. We can all agree on that I hope. I think that's where this question is ultimately answered. one person posted about the relative strengths and weaknesses of men and women, and I tend to see the same thing. I'm a lucky dad of a son and daughter, and observing their attributes and tendencies, talents, gifts, and inclinations supports this idea. Any parent of a boy and girl would probably agree; they're not the same in more ways than they are the same because they're born that way.
If it all boils down to innate attributes and strengths/weaknesses (acknowledging outliers and anomalies), it seems objectively clear, if not obvious that perhaps pinball lends itself better to boys and men than girls and women strictly by what the game offers and demands from the player. maybe that's the answer right there, and I'm ok with that.
I am grateful to experience the major strengths that the women and girls in my life possess. I'm also grateful for the innate strengths of boys and men. We were not meant to be identical, and the differences are something to be thankful for. I like that my male friends are universally and significantly different than my female friends, and offer different interactions entirely. That's the good stuff because we can count on each group for different things. That's why we men appreciate the bond and partnership of a good woman (plutonic or otherwise); women are valuable beyond measure.
I've been grateful to see the input which deals with the differences rather than the concept of high horsing male judgment and insult. I truly believe, as another post mentioned, that generally male innate strengths make a big difference in our game. I've learned just by trying to demonstrate or teach pinball to males and females who are not familiar with the game. I know that if i were a woman, I'd be much better at teaching females than males, because my perspective based on my strengths would be so much different. for me, it's much harder to teach a female pinball than males because I've only got a male perspective/experience in pinball skills, and I've only got a small handful of skills and not enough experience in playing.
Long live the differences that exist! our world would certainly be a whole lot less complete and interesting without them.
Thanks again for your input.
Makes are 85% more likely than females to have a form of autism. Us autistics love flipping a ball around and watch it go zoom.
Quoted from HEAD_boss_HOG:"Pinball lovers are often nerdy male introverts who love video games and other currently (and historically) niche hobbies and social activities, kinda like pinball.
Seriously, WTF are you talking about? You say it’s not a good place to generalize, and then you toss out this kind of ridiculous generalization?
Quoted from swampfire:Quoted from ElleCayare:
>I really think that the presence of a Y chromosome gives guys the ability to ignore things that aren't the matter at hand.
>>I’ve had my wife come down and look at me for 2 minutes while I’m working, before I even notice she’s there.
I dunno. I will admit to being Upstairs working: "36 and 5/8 inches minus a bit. 36 and 5/8 inches minus a bit..."
My Wife: "if I go down on you and start cooking, are you are you going to be ready to eat?"
Me: "Yeah, I'll be done in about 20 minutes...what are you grinning about?"
OTOH, I couldn't find my thumbdrive, so I plugged the one on my key ring into the back of the computer to back up ONE file. Keys lost for days.
I think the only way we are going even tell if the PREMISE holds water is to have a few top guy players "transition".
Who gonna step up here, for the community...and for SCIENCE?
Quoted from HEAD_boss_HOG:It's not sensible to generalize here. To put a blanket statement about the female experience with male hobbyists in Pinball seems like a reach, and also demonizes those of us who are in pursuit of inclusivity and expanding our hobby's appeal to a larger demographic. I think that using the term "mansplained" here is more of an exaggerated statement of a woman's experience than it should be. Men are different than women. Pinball lovers are often nerdy male introverts who love video games and other currently (and historically) niche hobbies and social activities, kinda like pinball. I'd say that, for most of the passionate pinball lovers who stick to their social circles, general social skills may be lacking, but to boldly state that men who love pinball are busy "mansplaining" things to women is a hostile viewpoint, and harshly presumes intent without context. Pinball enthusiasts and video game nerds alike speak their own language when they're surrounded and enveloped in their comfort zones, and sometimes they can be a bit tactless and coarse, but there's no intentional condescension or ridicule in that. Call it a lack of refined social skills all day, but to presume some sort of "lording" over a novice outsider, be them a male or female, is a harsh and judgmental POV.
“Methinks thou dost protest too much.” - Hamlet’s mom.
Quoted from HEAD_boss_HOG:To put a blanket statement about the female experience with male hobbyists in Pinball seems like a reach, and also demonizes those of us who are in pursuit of inclusivity and expanding our hobby's appeal to a larger demographic. I think that using the term "mansplained" here is more of an exaggerated statement of a woman's experience than it should be.
"Not all men."
I was restoring a muscle car in the '80s and '90s, was an active skydiver from 1990 til 2014, been shooting guns for 40 years... I've spent some time as a woman in male dominated hobbies. Mansplained is not an exaggeration of a woman's experience in ANY male dominated hobby. And there's quite a bit of gatekeeping as well.
It's sad to think that the actions of some guys are at least a part of what is keeping women from pinball, but downplaying a woman's stated experience of it seems counterintuitive if your goal is inclusivity and appealing to a larger demographic.
The high scores at our house are mostly mine. 
Quoted from 27dnast:Seriously, WTF are you talking about? You say it’s not a good place to generalize, and then you toss out this kind of ridiculous generalization?
i just said "often." I've been to some pinball shows and met hundreds of fellow pinheads and gamers, and its just my experience. I myself am pretty nerdy about pinball. I think major hobby enthusiasts like us just have that gene in most cases...
I didn't mean to overgeneralize. I'm not saying its a bad thing at all, just a familiar attribute in our world.
Quoted from skywyatt:It's sad to think that the actions of some guys are at least a part of what is keeping women from pinball, but downplaying a woman's stated experience of it seems counterintuitive if your goal is inclusivity and appealing to a larger demographic.
There's no denying this absolutely happens. In my experience, though, when a good looking woman is around a bunch of guys playing pinball, all the guys tend to straighten up a little. What group of guys wouldn't want some chicks hanging around? I'd argue that some men often also go out of their way to make women feel comfortable in that environment, helping with rules or tips, etc. For several years, I've been around plenty of women playing pinball, single and married, and never heard any complaints about mistreatment of any kind. I would imagine this is the circumstance most of the time.
Am I just on an island here or are guys really just assholes outside of Alabama?
Quoted from Pahuffman:Am I just on an island here or are guys really just assholes outside of Alabama?
In my experience, there are 10% of guys who are misogynist assholes and get a lot of attention and make the 80% of guys that are decent look bad.
The other 10% are the steamroller guys who think they need to smooth the path for women. They are a different form of asshole.
Quoted from skywyatt:"Not all men."
I was restoring a muscle car in the '80s and '90s, was an active skydiver from 1990 til 2014, been shooting guns for 40 years... I've spent some time as a woman in male dominated hobbies. Mansplained is not an exaggeration of a woman's experience in ANY male dominated hobby. And there's quite a bit of gatekeeping as well.
It's sad to think that the actions of some guys are at least a part of what is keeping women from pinball, but downplaying a woman's stated experience of it seems counterintuitive if your goal is inclusivity and appealing to a larger demographic.
The high scores at our house are mostly mine.
you are a cool, rare woman, and I'm glad that you've participated in those typically male activities. I hope your experience and interactions with the male enthusiasts has been more pleasant than unpleasant, but I can see how some of the older heads in those particular circles would rub any person the wrong way. i just think the term "mansplained" is kind of presumptuous because it's hard to infer intent, especially on a complete stranger. I prefer to simply acknowledge that lots of men, especially hobbyists, have a challenging time communicating to outsiders their hobbies/interests because maybe they lack social graces, or are talking at too high a level for the uninitiated. This might be perceived as "high horsing" by some people. I think its unintentional in most cases.
I've been around women who come off as condescending on certain topics which they are well-versed and experienced on, but it is kind of silly just to assume because they came off a certain way that they were intending to sound superior or to look down on the person they're talking to. maybe they're just impatient and are not excellent communicators.
I agree with you on the gatekeeping aspect to be sure. That sort of attitude from the world's experienced hobbyists keeps people away because it is not pleasant to deal with a "gatekeeper," when all a beginner wants to do is learn and absorb wisdom from those with more experience and skill.
Quoted from ElleCayare:misogynist assholes
I see this term getting thrown around a lot lately. Without naming any names, can you give us some examples of this behavior?
Quoted from ElleCayare:The other 10% are the steamroller guys who think they need to smooth the path for women. They are a different form of asshole.
Smooth meaning making things too easy on purpose or smooth meaning trying to over-explain like a "know it all"?
Quoted from Pahuffman:I see this term getting thrown around a lot lately. Without naming any names, can you give us some examples of this behavior?
Smooth meaning making things too easy on purpose or smooth meaning trying to over-explain like a "know it all"?
Like my former boss, (high school principal, liked to spank the younger female teachers, had an affair with subordinate and threatened to fire her, actually groped some of the male teachers, too). He chose his favorites based on necklines, the lower the better.
More like needing to fight battles for us. Most women are not fragile little flowers, and most of us are quite capable of forming opinions and expressing them. Steamrollers try to champion the cases of people who a) don't need obstacles knocked down for them, and b) don't want obstacles knocked down for them.
Often the obstacles don't even exist, but are perceived by the steamroller.
Quoted from Coindork:Until somebody physically cock checks every player on that list of the worlds top pinball player and confirms they are all men (or not) I refuse to believe it.
Reminded me of this. 
Quoted from HEAD_boss_HOG:It's not sensible to generalize here.
Said, without irony, by a guy that started a thread called "Why Are Men Better Than Women At Pinball?"
Quoted from ElleCayare:Like my former boss, (high school principal, liked to spank the younger female teachers, had an affair with subordinate and threatened to fire her, actually groped some of the male teachers, too). He chose his favorites based on necklines, the lower the better.
Ohh yeah that's pretty bad. You'd get fired for that nowadays. I was thinking you meant people who were being just generally rude. I know a guy (through a friend of a friend) who we recently found out was charged with sexual misconduct at his job. He got mega fired and lost his license in his industry.
Quoted from ElleCayare:More like needing to fight battles for us. Most women are not fragile little flowers, and most of us are quite capable of forming opinions and expressing them.
Yeah I hate that too. Going back to your earlier ratio, do you really think 2/5 men you meet at a pinball event displays some kind of inappropriate behavior specifically towards women? That seems high to me. Not saying it hasn't happen or doesn't happen, but my experience would tell me it's more like 2/50. Thoughts?
Quoted from Pahuffman:Ohh yeah that's pretty bad.
Yeah I hate that too. Going back to your earlier ratio, do you really think 2/5 men . . .Not saying it hasn't happen or doesn't happen, but my experience would tell me it's more like 2/50. Thoughts?
He didn't get fired for that. He got fired for running up a bar tab on the boss's card in 2015. It was gross.
I've never been to pinball tourney, so I was making a general population statement.
10% is 1/10, not 2/5.
I was over estimating the AH ratio. Probably 95% good guys in the world, 2% pigs, 3% offended upon my (unoffended) behalf.
Quoted from fosaisu:Said, without irony, by a guy that started a thread called "Why Are Men Better Than Women At Pinball?"
when you're right, you're right. however, a conclusory question is not a statement of fact. The forum topic is more like a leading question which assumes facts, and not so much of a generization. The thread is more of a conclusory or "leading/loaded" question than a generalization about things. It's more fair and diplomatic to ask questions instead of domineering with opinions camouflaged as facts. the conversation gets started using questions instead of bold thesis statements.
for example, suppose this thread was called "All men are better than all women at pinball" instead of "why are men better than women at pinball; your opinion..." The question/inquiry element matters; it means that the answer is unknown. That, in itself, is anything BUT a generalization if you ask me. Questions invite dialogue and responses. Assertions and self righteous, uninformed indoctrinational attempts suppress dialogue and conversations. They are not the same at all.
There are just not as many women that play. It's as simple as that.
Same as arcades, fishing, hunting, etc.
It's not to say that there aren't some incredible female players (they are certainly out there...I've seen them), but they just aren't out there in "numbers"
Quoted from ElleCayare:Like my former boss, (high school principal, liked to spank the younger female teachers, had an affair with subordinate and threatened to fire her, actually groped some of the male teachers, too). He chose his favorites based on necklines, the lower the better.
More like needing to fight battles for us. Most women are not fragile little flowers, and most of us are quite capable of forming opinions and expressing them. Steamrollers try to champion the cases of people who a) don't need obstacles knocked down for them, and b) don't want obstacles knocked down for them.
Often the obstacles don't even exist, but are perceived by the steamroller.
Quoted from ElleCayare:Like my former boss, (high school principal, liked to spank the younger female teachers, had an affair with subordinate and threatened to fire her, actually groped some of the male teachers, too). He chose his favorites based on necklines, the lower the better.
More like needing to fight battles for us. Most women are not fragile little flowers, and most of us are quite capable of forming opinions and expressing them. Steamrollers try to champion the cases of people who a) don't need obstacles knocked down for them, and b) don't want obstacles knocked down for them.
Often the obstacles don't even exist, but are perceived by the steamroller.
I regret that you had to work for such a man, and I can only hope that the instance you offered here is not pervasive. I like to believe that generally, the respective populous of men and women are fully developed men and women instead of immature, entitled jerks who abuse positions of power and authority. I've been victimized by man hating women in positions of power in my adult life, and I resent that they did the same thing as your boss. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely, to be sure, as the saying goes.
I'm a bit confused by your comments as to "needing to fight battles for us." do you mean that there is a general need of men to protect women? If so, I must say that men, at least from the Boomer and Gen X generations, definitely have that viewpoint and attitude. We are more traditional than millennials indeed. Sometimes that tendency results in sheltering, which creates oppressive and possessive men, at least as it pertains to their wife/gf. I prefer to keep the "protection" aspect limited to literal, physical and, if needed, emotional protection and safety. It's not so bad to have someone looking out for you unless they become overbearing, as you indicated, which results in the example you provided. there's the good and the bad.
Q: Why are men better than women at pinball?
A: Because women are better at everything else, and they wanted us to have a false sense of superiority in at least one area of life.
Quoted from HEAD_boss_HOG:I'm a bit confused by your comments as to "needing to fight battles for us." do you mean that there is a general need of men to protect women? If so, I must say that men, at least from the Boomer and Gen X generations, definitely have that viewpoint and attitude.
Technically, I'm a millennial, but with Gen X siblings, and Boomer parents.
There's a difference between courtesy, chivalry, and flat out molly coddling.
I hope my sons grow up to be chivalrous, and protective of their families, and kill spiders for their wives (if needed - personally I let the spiders live). I don't want them to try to change rules so it's easier for girls, or follow their daughters on the playground because the monkey bars are too high for a girl (my friend's husband does this - drives me nuts, let the kid play on the playground for pete's sake)
I hope my daughter find someone who is respectful and opens doors (literal, not metaphorical), and offers to open jars when she can't get to the darn olives. I don't want her to find some guy who thinks she's not capable of whatever she puts her mind to, and has to "take care" of her because he perceives her to be feeble.
That 3% that I alluded to want to fight battles that aren't necessarily even there.
For example: they are offended by your post title, but if they read the actual post, they would have seen that your question really was "Why are men RATED better that women at pinball?"
Getting mad at this post is not worth it.
We have a local in MN . not sure if mentioned that won the 1991 IFPA World Championships. She also won a game at my Pinball Plus tournament in 1995. Williams Lasercue. Theresa Dery. She was a good player . Not sure if she plays in competitions anymore.
I'm glad there's more support for women players in this thread than I thought there would be. I'm female and I brought my husband into the hobby. I love it. I bought our first table and I did all the upgrades on it I'd like to take classes to learn more repair work too. But I don't care to compete at all. I just enjoy playing and trying new tables and tinkering with them. Sometimes the "bro" culture is a big turnoff. Just recently my husband and I went to a bar that got some new tables and the owner came up to my husband and was chatting him up about his new pins and recruiting him for a league and just totally ignored me. It gets old.
I think another reason more women don't do it is that we're busy much of the time taking care of (gestures widely at the home) all this.
Quoted from BallyBallerton:I think another reason more women don't do it is that we're busy much of the time taking care of (gestures widely at the home) all this.
Truth.
Quoted from BallyBallerton:I'm glad there's more support for women players in this thread than I thought there would be.
This goes to my assertion that 95% of guys are decent human beings.
Quoted from ElleCayare:This goes to my assertion that 95% of guys are decent human beings.
It’s just like watching the news. It’s the A holes that make the top of the news hour. Usually the positive stuff is buried between sports and the end of the newscast.
Quoted from ElleCayare:Technically, I'm a millennial, but with Gen X siblings, and Boomer parents.
There's a difference between courtesy, chivalry, and flat out molly coddling.
I hope my sons grow up to be chivalrous, and protective of their families, and kill spiders for their wives (if needed - personally I let the spiders live). I don't want them to try to change rules so it's easier for girls, or follow their daughters on the playground because the monkey bars are too high for a girl (my friend's husband does this - drives me nuts, let the kid play on the playground for pete's sake)
I hope my daughter find someone who is respectful and opens doors (literal, not metaphorical), and offers to open jars when she can't get to the darn olives. I don't want her to find some guy who thinks she's not capable of whatever she puts her mind to, and has to "take care" of her because he perceives her to be feeble.
That 3% that I alluded to want to fight battles that aren't necessarily even there.
For example: they are offended by your post title, but if they read the actual post, they would have seen that your question really was "Why are men RATED better that women at pinball?"
Getting mad at this post is not worth it.
I appreciate your comments, and your viewpoint is well informed. It's nice to know that the ladies in our pinball hobby don't harbor a general dislike for the men in the hobby. I hope that more women join in the fun, and the result is a more balanced distribution of high level players who are women....let's shoot for 25% of the top 100 by 2023. More exposure, more playing time, more interest, and more excellent players through enhanced interest and participation.
For a very long time I have believed that research showed that women had faster reaction times than men - I recall this information coming out in relation to females starting to enter the professional drag racing scene. However, a quick search of recent studies for both "hand-eye coordination" and "reaction times" seems to indicate that males (tend to, on average) have an advantage over females. If this is true, then it makes sense that males would tend to have advantages over females in pinball. I would think the much lower participation in pinball by female exacerbates this disparity, as there is likely to be much more untapped potential in the female population than in the male population.
I would think that reaction time to visual stimuli is the most critical skill in pinball.
The below study covering reaction times to audio and visual stimuli shows that among active people Male reaction time is 233ms and female reaction time is 244ms, 11 ms slower (or 4.7%). This gap is 3ms smaller than the gap between sedentary males and females (242 vs 256), however the gap (based on audio stimuli - a starting gun) grows to 21ms among elite athletes (168 vs 189) in the 2nd study below.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4456887/
This disparity extends to elite athletes - thus diminishing the argument that lack of interest or lack of training is to blame:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0026141
I think hand-eye coordination is a second tier skill when it comes to pinball aim, because you are not trying to match what you see to 3D movements of your hand, you are just trying to time the button press accurately. However, maybe hand-eye coordination plays a larger role in nudging as one tries to coordinate what they are seeing the ball do with what direction and with what force their hand needs to move? Anyways the scores in this test were 58 for males and 70 for females (a 20.6% difference), lower being better, but I didn't read to see what they did or how.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284874546_Gender_Differences_in_Motor_Coordination_at_Young_Students_at_Psychology
Now, none of these studies seem to be on large populations, so maybe the reality is different, who knows. Also, I don't think the studies made any attempt to factor in life experiences - like have you played video games most of your life.
Nudging is certainly (according to the laws of physics) easier for people that tend to be heavier and/or stronger, so certainly that tends to favor males too - you know - depending somewhat on how sensitive the tilts are.
It would be cool if someday as interest in pinball among women continues to grow that there could be (closely) competitive combined pinball competitions where it would be a coin toss as to whether a male or female would win. I love female heroes - River Tam (Firefly/Serenity), Black Widow, Wonder Woman, Buffy, Sydney Bristow (Alias), Starbuck (the new one), etc. I'm all for having a female pinball hero to cheer for.
It would be pretty cool if at some future pinball tournament (or several for a larger sample size) a scientific test could be carried out to test both the reaction time and hand-eye coordination of the world's best pinball players and see if there is a strong correlation between either or both attributes and one's ranking.
--edited to correct typos, clarify some things, and add a few new thoughts.
Quoted from ElleCayare:10% is 1/10, not 2/5.
Whoops haha meant to say 1/5 - 10% for "misogynist assholes" and 10% for "steamrollers", so 8/10. Didn't want an improper fraction in there, so I reduced, but I reduced like an idiot. Math is not my strongest subject.
Clearly, women are better at math!
Quoted from HEAD_boss_HOG:let's shoot for 25% of the top 100 by 2023
Why do you keep fetishizing the top 100? Don’t get me wrong, I admire and respect most of those guys, but it sure as heck isn’t the be-all and end-all of pinball.
You need elite hand eye coordination. As well as great reflexes. Men are just better at those things. There are very few things in this world where women can compete with men competitively. Look at chess. Video games. Magic of the gathering. Women just arent competitive. Competition is the mans world
Quoted from swampfire:Why do you keep fetishizing the top 100? Don’t get me wrong, I admire and respect most of those guys, but it sure as heck isn’t the be-all and end-all of pinball.
I'm not "fetishizing" the top 100 rankings list on IFPA, but it seems to be the only reliable point of reference for this topic's purpose of interest and curiosity. There aren't any other reference points which would generally and globally apply except for the top 100 rankings. For example, take the top 100 pinball game rankings. if we were to explore the hows and whys of their rankings, we'd have to use the rankings as our point of reference. It is something we can all relate to.
I am lucky enough to have competed against men AND women in pinball, and to see these various (top 25-50) players in live action. This experience has given me an arguably accurate point of reference to initiate the inquiry here. Through this experience, I've been able to see what the best players routinely execute during competitions, which leads me to my conclusion that there is NO gender advantage enjoyed by men to the exclusion of women. My curiosity is centered around this observation; mainly that there is nothing men are doing, at least to a very dedicated pinball hobbyist like myself, which women could not also do with the same effect. It is why the question is "why are men better than women at pinball?" instead of another, less conclusory question like "what skills can men execute which women cannot in pinball?"
the rankings make it readily apparent that the conclusory question is appropriate, and doesn't answer itself.
Quoted from swampfire:isn’t the be-all and end-all of pinball.
I disagree with this. These guys ARE the best in the world, both physically and mentally. Raymond Davidson is #1 because he's a consistent winner. Just look at this past weekend's Expo tournament results. It's the same guys at the top of the list time and time again because they have combined their natural talent with practice to hone their craft.
OP is right. The top X players, however many you want to say, is a good reference. The number is arbitrary.
I doubt this question can be resolved without doing a pinball-specific study that's not going to happen. Any statistics on hand-eye coordination, reaction times, etc. with gender differences might or might not be meaningful in pinball. Annie Oakley pretty well proved that women can demonstrate World #1 level reaction time and hand-eye coordination in some skill environments.
We know there's a participation ratio edge to males. We don't know if there's an "intensity of intent" differential, i.e. whether or not more top-level males are putting in more practice time than their top female counterparts. We don't know (but could, with a lot of number crunching, find out) what differential, if any, there is in top level players of each gender attending high-WPPR events and thereby having equal opportunity to achieve a high ranking.
A few historical notes: Helena Walter (now Helena Walter Higgins) was, to my knowledge, the woman to achieve the highest IFPA ranking so far at #15 back in 2007. Helena was the top-ranked woman for at least 10 years. I believe Louise Wagensonner holds the record for most WPPRs for a woman in any one event for finishing 2nd out of 149 players in Classics 2 at Indisc 2019.
On a personal note, I've had the pleasure of directly competing with dozens of women over the years, working with them at tournaments, talking Classics strategy with them, and trading tips and techniques. I thoroughly enjoyed doing 11 hours (whew, yes, 11 in one day!) of webcasting for the IFPA Womens Championship in Texas a few years ago. They're a credit to our sport as players, TDs, volunteers, techs and organizers. I can't predict when a woman will get to World #1, nor what portion of the top 100 will be women a year from now. I just know that they're damn good all around and I'm glad they're here.
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