(Topic ID: 16057)

Why AFM and MM will never be remade.

By Slate

11 years ago


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There are 104 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 11 years ago

HEP MMs aren't going for $12K. They are $16K all day. I have seen high end restores at close to $20K sell in the last two months.

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#53 11 years ago
Quoted from AkumaZeto:

Lawlor looks like shit.

No doubt. When did he get old?

#54 11 years ago

i know i would be a little upset if i just bought a MM for 12k and then someone started selling a reproduction run of 1,000 machines at 9k a pop NIB

#55 11 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

If true that would shock me. I can't imagine a game that has been on rout since the mid 90's, which has likely had zero upgrades, would even hold a candle to tron or spiderman on rout. Kids don't care what a machines pin side ranking is. They will play the machine with the flashier lights, better sound, and theme they recognize. They won't care whether it is a ballys or stern as they will have no ax to grind on the issue.

It is true. AFM and MM kill my Spiderman or any of my Stern line up.

Absolutely no interest in operating new Stern pins since they almost doubled the price. They haven't doubled what you get or what they earn.

LTG

#56 11 years ago
Quoted from hassanchop:

AFM and MM are still the most profitable machines on location play

MM did terrible for us when it was new.

The pinheads hated it, said it had too many toys and "It's not pinball".

#57 11 years ago

The solution is to get Brian Eddy to work for JJP and make a game LIKE MM or AFM but different for licensing reasons, etc. The team they have a JJP is awesome and they have made some killer titles at WMS/Bally but it seems Brian Eddys vision and pf layout seem to be what hard core ballers like.

#58 11 years ago
Quoted from mickthepin:

Slate said:Kind of like all the corporate crap music the record companies sell worldwide. Nothing to do with good music, talent, etc… just whatever the public gets shoved down their throat and what's the flavor of the month copied by all.
This is the best point made and why what is good and should be, don’t mean sh*t. I have a fairly good cross section of people I come into contact with on a daily basis, and anyone who has any idea of music be they young or old thinks that what is hot and making money right now (or in the last 5 years for that matter) is worth a pinch of sh*t. It will and is happening to the movie industry as well. Mark my words, It will be like music is now, created for a flyby night market with no soul or longevity at all. So, cynical as it may be it is my grim opinion that the whole world could be screaming out for what’s good and should be, even if all the facts and figures work on paper. As long as the kids buy it the corporation can keep cranking the plastic fantastic money machine. Educate your kids it’s the only hope we have.

Myself being in the music biz I see first hand the divisions. None of todays music and I mean NONE will have any longevity. Just like some crappy movie they have to have special effects to make it viewable.

Its a total corporate money machine and they will churn it out till it stops making money. They do not care about music 1 bit. Like pharmacutical companies that bake in Liability into the product because there is always deaths and lawsuits, they do not care at all just like the music companies.

The good thing is there is and always will be an underground of true music lovers. In the UK they go out in droves to see new exciting bands and they tend to shun corporate processed crap.

The silver lining is you can always push the garbage out of the way and find great music. Problem is you have to search for it.

#59 11 years ago

Truly great companies make great ORIGINAL products, they do not make reproductions of other companies work. Making a reproduction of AFM would be a sign of weakness on JJP's part.

#60 11 years ago
Quoted from Slate:

The solution is to get Brian Eddy to work for JJP and make a game LIKE MM or AFM but different for licensing reasons, etc.

I've always thought it strange that Brian Eddy designed three games all of which are well-regarded by pinball fans and 2 of which also did very well on location, but has never been brought back to design any more after MM.

#61 11 years ago

He got busy with Psi Ops and then the Mortal Kombat franchise after MM. Those MK titles probably made him more $$$ than he made on all of his pin work combined.

#62 11 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

He got busy with Psi Ops and then the Mortal Kombat franchise after MM. Those MK titles probably made him more $$$ than he made on all of his pin work combined.

I think you can safely remove the "probably" from that statement, gambit.

#63 11 years ago

If Pat Lawlor does the Hobbit with JJP, sign me up right NOW!!!!

I will take #1 based on that combo alone

#64 11 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

If Pat Lawlor does the Hobbit with JJP, sign me up right NOW!!!!
I will take #1 based on that combo alone

Me too. Lawlor is my favorite designer by a mile. Jackson's Hobbit movie will be epic. JJP might soon be my favorite manufacturer. Better start saving my pennies, nickels and dimes.

#65 11 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

He got busy with Psi Ops and then the Mortal Kombat franchise after MM. Those MK titles probably made him more $$$ than he made on all of his pin work combined.

Yeah who knows how deep his interest was anyway. Someone like Gomez and Lawlor are pinball fans. I have never read anything about Eddy so maybe it was work and money for him and not a passion.

Regardless he was a master like Lawlor.

#66 11 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

If true that would shock me.

It's true. It's why MMs have always, *always* commanded a premium. Even 10 years ago, a MM was worth equal to or more than a NIB machine because it would make more on route. They were underproduced, and they earned and earned and earned.

AFM doesn't make quite the numbers that MM does from what I hear, but it isn't too far off.

I know of at least two MMs on route in my area because of how much they still earn to this day. And I love it, I can always stick in $5.00 to play instead of shelling out $5k for a machine

#67 11 years ago

I would be excited about getting re-makes of MM/AFM/MB, and/or new & improved versions of the same. No big rush, just keep the sell prices reasonable.

#68 11 years ago

Unless they make new ones I have no interest . Watch how many go on sale in 2 years after they have been sitting next to Woz,ac/dc Tron etc. the lights, sound overall technology will make the old A titles seem just that... Old

#69 11 years ago

My local op pulled his MM out of the theater here in the TC. He was afraid it would get stolen.
They are currently shopping it out and readying it for sale. No price yet but it will be at least $10k.

#70 11 years ago
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:

Unless they make new ones I have no interest . Watch how many go on sale in 2 years after they have been sitting next to Woz,ac/dc Tron etc. the lights, sound overall technology will make the old A titles seem just that... Old

Keep dreaming

#71 11 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

MM did terrible for us when it was new.

The pinheads hated it, said it had too many toys and "It's not pinball".

Not what I remember. I can link dozens of posts of people trying to pry them from operators who wouldn't sell because it was racking in money.

Example: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/8f397d0fb3225cbe/bfb78e9a1dbdeaf8?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=Medieval+Madness#

Here is the post about people dumping quarters and how everybody loves it, straight from 1997.

Another example lifted from an Old RGP post:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/a5d3e07015a18ba4/0d2c83ee201e9840?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=Medieval+Madness+opinion#

Good reads if you like people speculating on the past. Love the rumors of a Lawlor Rocky Horror Picture Show pin or Earthquake sequel.

#72 11 years ago
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:

Unless they make new ones I have no interest . Watch how many go on sale in 2 years after they have been sitting next to Woz,ac/dc Tron etc. the lights, sound overall technology will make the old A titles seem just that... Old

Or, the new titles will remind people to be nostalgic for the old ones.

Now, I have NO idea what is going to happen, but I'll point out something interesting to me at least -- the 80s era solid state titles, with very few exceptions, have not experienced near the price inflation that the 90s era DMD titles have. Even your top of the line machines, like Whirlwind, PinBot and Earthshaker aren't commanding *that* much more than they did 5 years ago now.

So, perhaps there is something to be said for newer machines bumping the old ones out. When Checkpoint rolled along, and then T2 showed up, it made people really sit up and take notice of the differences, and those old games disappeared quickly because the new ones earned better. Will that same thing happen with WoZ and / or any new system that Jack develops? Maybe -- but with SO much less pinball on route, it's very doubtful that too many locations will have a WoZ side-by-side with an ACDC and MM to see which one is earning the best or whatever. Likely, you'll have a WoZ at one location, an ACDC elsewhere, and maybe a MM somewhere else yet.

I think the likelihood of new games taking the prices down of DMD games is very slim. I know a number of collectors who won't even consider the Stern titles because they "feel so different", and even if WoZ "feels" the exact same, it isn't going to have that rose-colored-glasses tint that TAF, TZ, AFM, MB, MM etc etc have for people.

#73 11 years ago

Ah, different thought process. I don't even believe the "routed return" is a factor on tomorrows sales. It's all about home buyers

#74 11 years ago
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:

Ah, different thought process. I don't even believe the "routed return" is a factor on tomorrows sales. It's all about home buyers

There is certainly some merit to this thought . . . unless the manufacturers figure out how to put a ticket dispenser into a pinball machine . . . then the routed return shall play a big factor again. Sooner or later someone will figure out how to do the whole ticket dispenser in a pinball machine right?

#75 11 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

unless the manufacturers figure out how to put a ticket dispenser into a pinball machine . .

That has been available in pins since the early 1990's. In most games software.

And companies have made ticket dispensers that could be added on, on their own.

And no one cares.

LTG

#76 11 years ago

I think chucky cheese has done ticket dispensers in pins for a long time and they seem to be getting rid of their pins from what I understand.

#77 11 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Hwawonyu said:Ah, different thought process. I don't even believe the "routed return" is a factor on tomorrows sales. It's all about home buyers
There is certainly some merit to this thought . . . unless the manufacturers figure out how to put a ticket dispenser into a pinball machine . . . then the routed return shall play a big factor again. Sooner or later someone will figure out how to do the whole ticket dispenser in a pinball machine right?

Gary Stern talked about that exact thing at the Rocky Mountain pin show last weekend.

http://www.pinballnews.com/shows/rockymountain2012/index.html
Scroll to the bottom:
"He also revealed that the company will be selling an add-on to turn a regular pinball into a redemption game - issuing tickets, as seen at the Amusement Expo show in Las Vegas."

#78 11 years ago

Dunno. I suppose someone with decent CAD/CNC milling experience could take quite a bit of the cost away from this. You could probably recreate any board with a standard 6-axis machine with at least a 10ft x 8ft work area.
Most of the cost would be incurred from trying to reproduce the unique items like bumper caps and plastic overlays. After reproducing the playfield artwork, of course.
Hmm. Maybe it's time to start rehashing those old 1990s skills.

#79 11 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

That has been available in pins since the early 1990's. In most games software.

And companies have made ticket dispensers that could be added on, on their own.

And no one cares.

That depresses me to hear LTG. I thought the redemption games were what really did in the pin on location. Ah well, I'm still learning the ins and outs of the hobby.

#80 11 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I think chucky cheese has done ticket dispensers in pins for a long time and they seem to be getting rid of their pins from what I understand.

Chuck E Cheese in West Madison has a Shrek with a ticket dispenser. Not sure if this is true throughout the franchise, but you earned 1 ticket for beating the Grand Champ score... 1 ticket...

Needless to say, I didn't earn a ticket for my niece.

At Gameworks you get tickets from their redemption machine (Tron) for not only scores, but completing tasks. I was pretty impressed by the Gameworks machine. Obviously more fun than some carnival game that will yield 10 seconds of entertainment. Surely kids will catch on?

#81 11 years ago

Well if that is the case, then CC is not doing it right...

#82 11 years ago

1 ticket... worth 300 tickets.

And that Tron machine at GameWorks seems to be the test case of how to make tickets "work" in a pin. Personally, I think it's a cool idea, but they need to convey that to the player better somehow, and I'm not sure what exactly that would be.

Also, redemption equipment isn't this huge cash cow that I think some of you see it as. The market is *wholly* different, and it will be interesting if they keep moving in this direction how they do it. They are better set up to handle that market than a lot of companies, but yeah... HUGE difference in machine purchasing cycles.

#83 11 years ago
Quoted from jimjim66:

Not what I remember. I can link dozens of posts of people trying to pry them from operators who wouldn't sell because it was racking in money.

We gladly sold them, they were not great earners for us. If they were really making money for the operators, Williams would have made 20,000 of them.

The only reason I still have one for myself was just blind luck. It was broken, got pulled off location because it could not be fixed in the field, got moved to the back of the warehouse in the parts pile, got buried, got moved to my barn by my guys when we closed down (mixed in with a big pile of pinball and video games).

A few years ago I was digging out a pool table and there it was.

#84 11 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If they were really making money for the operators, Williams would have made 20,000 of them.

No -- The MM one is interesting from the start. Operators had figured out that if they didn't buy B/W titles right away, they would drop them in price and blow them out wholesale. The B/W factory was built on doing one game at a time, and if they made more than they needed, they needed to sell the inventory. It isn't how Stern made their factory where they can switch between game to game with very little change over other than maybe wheeling out some more racks.

B/W caught onto the fact that operators were doing this, and with MM they knew that they had a hit on their hands -- so they *purposely* underbuilt it so that only those who ordered immediately at full price would get the games. The idea was to make those operators realize they had to buy the games immediately.

The strategy backfired though, and the ops that couldn't get the machine were often ticked off enough to stop purchasing pins altogether for a period. It was an odd part of the downfall of B/W.

If you don't believe me on this, ask Lloyd about it -- I'm pretty sure that he is one of the people who told me about it originally. Perhaps they didn't do well for you on location, as every location is different, but from everyone I have talked to, they still do better than anything else. There is a reason that we still have at least two of them on route in Milwaukee

#85 11 years ago

I'm certainly not the only operator who knew that they did poorly on location, LOL.

=

NOWADAYS, of course they do better because there is a mystique about them.

We all know where the local ones are, because they are valuable and that does not go unnoticed by bar owners, casual players, innocent bystanders....if you see one, you point it out to others around you "Hey, that game is worth $12k, and a NIB one once went for $29k on Ebay!"

Just like BBB, every time one goes up for sale, it becomes an event and someone points it out.

#86 11 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

If you don't believe me on this, ask Lloyd about it --

Dan is accurate about this.

Williams pinball marketing was amazing.

They seemed to have a pretty good grip on the video games, but pinball was all over the map.

I often wondered if it was too much going on and one hand not knowing what the other hand was doing.

At one point they had Williams, Advance Replacement, Midway, Midway Touchscreens, Atari, and pinball. And who knows what else all going on.

At the New Orleans industry show when the video fad flopped, their sales staff didn't sell one game, and upon their return to Chicago all were fired.

Yet at the shows the pinball design teams regularly stabbed each other in the back telling customers to not buy this game and wait and see what they had coming.

And their plan to wean operators off of waiting for close outs and under built MM, back fired huge. It seemed like everything they were doing then went wrong.

LTG

#87 11 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

Hobbit is machine #2.

Attachments YLe0210_PinballWizard1.jpg (9.3 KB, 1 downloads) 2 days old

If Lawlor is making the Hobbit, consider that another NIB for me..

#88 11 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

NOWADAYS, of course they do better because there is a mystique about them.

Again, might just be your particular circumstance. I was in the industry on the operator side starting in the mid-90s (and I was more or less into it until a couple years ago - still have a lot of friends in it), and it was well known that MM absolutely cleaned up compared to just about every other pinball machine out there. That didn't suddenly change in the last couple years as they took off in price -- in fact, they were originally priced so high because operators didn't want to sell them since they earned so well, and it was a guaranteed cashbox versus the question mark that buying a new machine would have.

If your MM that you were operating was a guaranteed 25% increase over every other pin you put into every location, would you want to sell it or replace it with a new machine?

#89 11 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

If your MM that you were operating was a guaranteed 25% increase over every other pin you put into every location, would you want to sell it or replace it with a new machine?

With MMs selling for $10k+ right now, honestly I would have to sell it rather than make $30-50 a week on it.

#90 11 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

If Lawlor is making the Hobbit, consider that another NIB for me..

I don't think you have to worry about any Lawlor NIB pin for you.

He appears to be gone from pinball.

LTG

#91 11 years ago

Is Lawlor really gone from pinball? I thought the JJP midwest campus/ shop was a building that is owned and operated by Lawlor????

That is at least why I have a glimmer of hope for his return.

#92 11 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Is Lawlor really gone from pinball? I thought the JJP midwest campus/ shop was a building that is owned and operated by Lawlor????

That is at least why I have a glimmer of hope for his return.

Renting space is a long way from your landlord being involved.

LTG

#93 11 years ago

I know of at least two MMs on route in my area because of how much they still earn to this day. And I love it, I can always stick in $5.00 to play instead of shelling out $5k for a machine

5k? This is 2012, right? If any op is reading this, will be glad to fork over 5k for your MM! Guys are obviously wanting a premium in my neck of woods!

#94 11 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

With MMs selling for $10k+ right now, honestly I would have to sell it rather than make $30-50 a week on it.

Depends on how much you're making on a pinball machine. If it's me, and you can make $50 / week on MM or $30 / week on some other game, you're talking about an over $1000 / year difference. And your MM is already paid off. I'd hold onto it. But hey, that's me -- If you'd rather sell off the top earners to get more short term cash, that's fair too -- who knows which way will be smarter in a few years.

Quoted from pinstor12:

5k? This is 2012, right? If any op is reading this, will be glad to fork over 5k for your MM! Guys are obviously wanting a premium in my neck of woods!

Oh yeah, sorry -- $15k.

I wouldn't pay $5k for any of the routed ones around here unless it was to flip. A few years ago, I was offered a blown out one on trade for a NIB Stern and I turned it down. I like MM more than the average pin, but I guess I'm lucky that I have liked a LOT of $1k-ish pins a LOT more than it, so I'm very happy with my collection where it is.

1 year later
#95 10 years ago

Sorry!....couldn't help it!

#96 10 years ago

Note to self: ignore OP.
Also hoping that he's not an investment advisor or lawyer.

#97 10 years ago

Well someone has some crow to eat

#99 10 years ago

Reminds me never to make predictions on Pinside!

#100 10 years ago

Lol, I was too lazy to look but I knew there had to be some "Never will happen" threads out there.
If I have learned one thing in life its not "can it happen?" but "How much?"

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