Well, at one time these games went on location. The sci-fi theme is still super-hot. I think it has the ability to do some business. And, wecollectors would be the gravy...

In order to remake these games, there is a lot of costs; so they would need to sell in the $10k to 12k range to insure a decent profit. It's not inexpensive to tool up to make stuff, and most people/businesses want a "guaranteed" ROI.

Maybe more than $12k, when you consider low quantity production...not sure how many they could sell, but I would guess 150-250; that's based on the pre-sign ups for Kingpin. Perhaps it's more...but not 2500 or so.

That's the real reason, not enough $ to be worth the risk and the headaches to build a few when the current going price for used ones is way less that the projected price for making a limited number of new ones.

The only reason that these will or will not be made is financial.

Robert

I think they could easily sell as many machines as titles like WOZ or BBB. Not for $12K plus though. But for NIB Stern price, yes.
They're proven to be fun and build quality was always good.

Yeah...if Stern could build Transformers or whatever for $6,500, why would AFM be any more?

#1 Reason MM will NOT be remade is Wayno sold everything to Rick except the rights to MM. He will never give that up.

Is there any definitive proof of this? I understand that Wayne Gilliard still has the rights to remake MM, but does he have *exclusive* rights?

I completely agree. AFM is the simplest pin I've ever worked on. Seems there are enough parts available to almost make a new game. Someone needs to make some correct Martians though, seems to be the big hurdle.

...and I would be in for a NIB MM up to 8k.

I'd be in up to a new Stern....$6,500. Nothing Super-Special on the machine to jack up the price.

My understanding is that NIB sales to home users are a much larger part of the market now than they were during the WPC era.

A big question is how many sales would be needed to break even on reproduction pinball machine production. Obviously, the higher the production, the lower the per-unit cost. Would it be feasible to make a run of 100 units? 250? Or would you need to go up to 1,000 or more to keep the per-unit costs within reason?

When Gene Cunningham remade Big Bang Bar, did he produce all the parts in-house, or contract out? For a smaller company (or individual) reproducing machines, I'd think that having some of the work subcontracted to third parties would be a must. You'd have to be a Renaissance man with a few million dollars' worth of capital equipment, otherwise.

Yes. Rick left Wayne the exclusive right to remake MM. He confirms this from time to time on RGP. Yesterday at the latest, just after throwing his "I am putting BSD decals at the bottom of my to-do list" fit.

Word is that Wayne is very close to having about 150 MMs ready. He has pics of lots of parts and PFs out there, actually.

As much of an... interesting character... as Wayne has been in the past, I really hope he actually comes through with this. It would be good with the hobby.
If he doesn't, someone else will, even if they do have to pay him off first (or start with AFM instead to prove they can do it, then pay him off). It's inevitable. Just how high do you think MM can get without *someone* making the move? If the price spiked to $20K, it would probably be possible to make a profit manufacturing them one at a time by hand. Didn't someone on Pinside manage to build one from scratch a while back?

I have to admit. I played MM for the first time at Allentown. It didn't blow me away! The one surprise I DID get is when those little Troll Heads popped up from the playfield. But there was sooo much stuff in a row that no matter where you hit the ball...it went in somewhere. Because I like the sci-fi theme, AFM was a much better situation for me. (don't beat me)

Perhaps we should start a new sign-up list of people (Pinheads, Pinsiders, others) that are seriously interested in getting some top pins re-made. Actually we could have a list for MM, another for MB, and another for AFM, etc. For now, let's use approx $6500 price range per pinball machine. Then which ever machine list gets the most interest, then we start with that one as we move to next step of getting w/ a manuf to pursue this idea further, talk feasability, up front down-payment amounts, etc. If enough demand and people/energy/resources devoted, then it seems like it could happen.

1 AFM for meeeee

Don't forget Wizard Blocks,I know its not a remake but I bet a bunch of pinheads want one if done right.

Yeah, I keep saying AFM is a no brainer for all the reasons mentioned. Simple, no license headaches, lots of the parts are in current production, and it's a desirable high-priced title. The Predator guys are planning on doing a licensed title with brand new tech, art and code for $5000 and it would cost $12000 to make AFM!?!? More like $5-6000 with a healthy profit margin in there.

*sigh*

Let's not get that MM and AFM cart before the patent and trademark infringement cart. You can't just up and rebuild AFM because you want to, and Planetary isn't giving out rights for that kind of thing. Wayne bought those rights and a piece of the Williams business, from WMS. He sold his stuff to Planetary, retaining only the rights to make the MMs he already allotted. The 100 or so that kept their deposits with him (mostly in Australia) will get their MM for the original price tag of $5,000. The other not spoken for are to be sold at $12,000-14,000, so the rumor goes.

Of course, this is all pure speculation. Who knows if Wayne ever actually did anything. But he did leak pics of PFs that had never been seen before, recently.

Re issue of MM or new Avengers or Hobbit! That's also what will crush that dream.

I'm a week away from buying both of those games, so I'm not a big fan of this thread right now...

When I ordered my MM from Wayne years ago, I talked to him on the phone and he was putting mechs together as we spoke. My machine was only about a month from completion, so I had no problem putting a deposit down based on what he told me personally. Very personable guy on the phone.

Years later, I was no closer to a MM. As of 2 years ago, I stepped out of that mess. I hope the people that are still in it get their pins from him, but from my personal point of view, I don't see it happening.

I'm sure when Rick bought the rights, he is the one that probably didn't want to touch the manufacturing of MM with a 10 foot poll, not the other way around.

Hmmm. For a NIB AFM I would break out the checkbook....only up to $6000, not for the 12K I read earlier.

Do we know what JJP's plans are after WOZ? Is he looking to keep producing pins?

Hobbit is machine #2. Something unlicensed likely will be #3

Has that been "officially" confirmed? That would mean JJP will only have the WOZ out until at the very very earliest December 2013 assuming he wanted to release it with Part II so he could have some clips or scenes from that movie (and that likely pushes it into 2014 sometime actually), that seems like a long time between pins.

He has personally confirmed it to several people at conventions over the last month or so. December 2013.

Thanks Gambit. I personally think that is a bit of a mistake for JJP. That is going to allow Stern to strong arm the retailers if they want to: "we will revoke your license to be our retailer if you sell JJP product...so refuse to be his retailer or have only the WOZ to sell while we roll out six more games you will miss out on."

Doesn't seem like a wise move by JJP...one year between releases is one thing but 20 months is...well, eight months longer...it can start to pressure your retailers.

He can sell them all himself. Pinballsales.com has been a monster for Stern.

Why wouldn't Planetary Pinball be willing to negotiate licenses for third parties to reproduce machines? They already are sublicensing the manufacture of reproduction playfields (CPR) and numerous other parts.

That is true. I bought my FG from Jack years ago (in fact, he was who I was referred to from Stern's website). Be that as it may, even in todays world of online shopping (even in the small world of pinball), never under estimate the importance of point of sell or direct to customer sells.

If he is his own distributer and he's the only one distributing he may have a problem. Also, I note, a lot of the rout guys probably have deals with various distributers of arcade devices, including pinballs, and Stern could block him there.

JJP needs to build a critical mass of a diversified product or he will remain suseptible to being squeezed out at the point of sell by a company pumping out larger quantity of product. Happens all the time in all industries. Not everyone can be Apple and sell their own stuff.

Hobbit is machine #2.

YLe0210_PinballWizard1.jpg

I think it would be cool if they did a SEQUEL to MM. Or even something along the lines of how Jack*Bot is to Pin*Bot, where they take the same playfield but produce a 2010s type game instead of a 90s type game, with all the new tech of the modern era and new software and rules.

Sequels make so much more sense. No licensing issues at all.

This is the best point made and why what is good and should be, don’t mean sh*t. I have a fairly good cross section of people I come into contact with on a daily basis, and anyone who has any idea of music be they young or old thinks that what is hot and making money right now (or in the last 5 years for that matter) is worth a pinch of sh*t. It will and is happening to the movie industry as well. Mark my words, It will be like music is now, created for a flyby night market with no soul or longevity at all. So, cynical as it may be it is my grim opinion that the whole world could be screaming out for what’s good and should be, even if all the facts and figures work on paper. As long as the kids buy it the corporation can keep cranking the plastic fantastic money machine. Educate your kids it’s the only hope we have.

AFM and MM are still the most profitable machines on location play. you put a transformers or tron next to an AFM or MM and you will earn way more on these 90's beauties...

this is one of the reasons why AFM and MM are worth so much. because they are valued by home consumers as vendors in locations.

I respectfully disagree with this.

PLD?? Now that I will sell a machine for.

Blowing smoke or is this known?

If true that would shock me. I can't imagine a game that has been on rout since the mid 90's, which has likely had zero upgrades, would even hold a candle to tron or spiderman on rout. Kids don't care what a machines pin side ranking is. They will play the machine with the flashier lights, better sound, and theme they recognize. They won't care whether it is a ballys or stern as they will have no ax to grind on the issue.

Prepare to be shocked.

My MM has out paced any machine I put on location, by a large margin. And by location, I mean a bar. i.e., no kids.

Kids don't play pinball (at least where I am located). If the machine does not spit out redemption tickets, they don't play it. They step up and play Deal or No Deal, and get 40 tickets they can exchange for a cheap eraser/gum/plastic toy. OPS that deal with kids look for ROI. Most redemption games average a 300% return. Pins, not so much.

I'm hoping WoZ has an option to spit out tickets, as that might get kids interested.

If MM or AFM are to be reproduced they would likely be a "boutique" run, priced to market. If a HEP AFM goes for say, $12K, and a NIB AFM might be even higher, what do you think a brand new unit will sell for? Can't be too far off.
On the other hand depending on the number of confirmed orders possible with payments, it might be more profitable to lower the price.

The question is how many will sell for $12K? What about 8K? Maybe a lot more for $7K?

Perhaps the smart money will go to the JJP product. Time will tell.

They should only sell for a NIB...$6,500

WPC games have the option to spit out tickets (with an optional ticket dispenser installed), but almost no one ever uses it.

I heard that WMS will not let the 'williams' name be used on any new MM machines. I also heard that if they ever were to be made that they will fall under tha 'bally' brand. Could be utter bollox as my source was a german pinball 'champion' whom i never heard of.

Yes, this is probably stated better than how I stated it.

Additionally, there is no assembly line for Williams pins, though JJP is the closest, as he apparently uses Williams mechanisms, but not the electronics.

Sure the boards could be built, but now you have to support 2 electronics versions, 2 types of programing, probably 2 cabinet sizes, LCD vs DMD displays, etc...

One other thing, all I read about is how to get new players, and the solutions is not to reproduce the "old stuff"...it's put in a ticket dispenser, put in an LCD, and so on. So as the design process evolves, I'm not sure how the old design (if reproduced) would stand up next to the new designs (WoZ being the first). One reason that these older pins are still so popular today is that the new pins (Stern) are essentially the same as the old ones...DMD, etc...with a less enjoyable implementation.

So if Rick at Planetary wanted to set up a production line to reproduce his intellectual property, he could do that, but I think that it would be a series of small runs of VERY popular machines; perhaps totaling 150 to 200 each. There is a lot of costs to produce a run of any size, so a small run like that (I think) would push the costs of each run to $10k - 12k per machine to make the ROI work. If he is making a good living selling parts and licensing rights, why would he take the risk to make and sell machines...only if he could make a lot of money, at least on paper; so the price per machine would be probably be high, and thus the runs small.

Robert

This is an interesting topic. I still can't understand why people think it would be more expensive to reproduce an old B/W game than to make a new Stern or JJP. Why would Jack let the line he's setting up at great expense go dark after WOz if he and Planetary could do a run of AFM while they worked on the next title?

You can buy most of the parts, including a complete brand new board set from Rick today. I can't remember what Jack is doing but the pinball companies almost never built their own cabinets anyway, so we know that's not an issue. We know CPR can make playfields and plastics, Pinball Inc. already makes the ramps, Kerry already makes the scoop and trough - both of them make better than original parts.

I'd rather see the pinball manufacturers concentrate on making "new" machines rather than try to remake old titles. If MM or AFM were rare like Pinball Circus or Kingpin it would be one thing, but as it stands I see these games in collections or on route as much as if not more than most other games of this era. I'd be much more prone to buy a JJP Hobbit or WOZ than I would a NIB AFM or MM at a $6500 price point.

If a company like JJP were to take on such an endeavor wouldn't it make sense to make an improved version or sequel of a game like AFM. If you make a version that is identical to the original version you limit yourself to the people that don't currently own the game and have $6500 or more to spend on a game. Why not add some special modes and modify the code to work with the new boardset and an LCD screen. -Similar to what Jackbot did to the Pinbot design by adding a DMD. You could even keep the playfield the same to save on R&D costs. Or you could do some subtle tweaks as was done to the "Attack and Revenge from Mars" design that was done in Visual Pinball.

attackandrevenge.jpg

I don't think it would be more expensive, except that unless you could sell more than 1000 units, the price per unit would be high.

I don't have any real notion as to how many of each of the more popular B/W machines would be bought. If the runs are small, like 100 games, $10k (or more) would likely be the price, but this is a guess. Depends on how much ROI the mfg wants.

I think the answer to this will be in the price the JJP charges for their second machine. He estimated (guessed) for the first one; if he loses money then he will raise his price, or lower each machines content.

You would want to have a continual production line going, so you would have continual churn on the design/purchasing/build effort. There is a lot of costs associated with each new machine, even if it's been made before.

Again, I'm not sure how many of those old machines would be bought, when they are already available for purchase.

Robert