License costs based on actors or their estates is very significant in this case, not just in title. This difficulty has been discussed in the past. The key dominator was Christopher Lloyd.

Remakes of this title would sell well, the number of years between the original, makes the "reboot" viable today.

An TAF remake would indeed sell, and sell a lot. Everyone wants one, and as others have mentioned, it's really rare to find an TAF pin that wasn't on location and worn out. As for the licensing issue with Christopher Lloyd, that was for a digital pin, and to be honest, they probably offered him peanuts.

For big remakes like this, you send someone like Roger Sharpe to pitch to Christopher Lloyd and cut them both a big fat check.

You can't change the artwork. Fester is in the flipper zone, and to anyone that's played the game for the past 25 years, it's like watching the special editions of Star Wars: Cringe-inducing. I also heard the guy who played pugsley wouldn't sign off, meh, who cares about him.

I laughed.

The poll is missing where I fit..."I have interest in TAF, but NOT in a refake". With 20k produced, it's ridiculous to remake this title.

snaroff

I just bought a restored TAF after months of looking, so obviously I am now in the "no remakes please" camp.

A TAF remake would sell like hotcakes, and I don't think price would be a problem. Minty TAFs go for silly money, particularly as they are pretty much guaranteed to hold value. How many pins can you point to as being both the highest selling in history AND still making money on route? It's been 20+ years and people aren't bored of it, even though it is pretty simple in gameplay terms. There are 20k+ of them out there and it still commands top money, even for basket case ones. That speaks volumes.

I'm frankly amazed it hasn't already been done, it's a licence to print money.

Yes BBB and LochNess. The latter I know won't ever materialize but a fun thought.

I’ll keep my original with all of its bumps and bruises...

This notion that owners will be dumping originals to buy new baffles me. All the nicks and scratches give these games a life and history from an era that’s gone. I dig the fact that my machine is a re-import from England and has battle wounds from thousands of plays of pain and fun. That’s something the sterility of a remake will never replicate.

CGC will probably make many remakes. That’s what they do, so they’ll make the ones that will sell. That means games that are asking $5k for a players condition and up.

I agree with this. I enjoy looking into the past. It brings a certain authenticity to ownership. Something you had to work to find, and is somewhat coveted.

I think you’re crossing up demand with what you’d personally like to see remade (“more deserving games”). If CGC we’re doing remakes “for the good of pinball” they’d certainly focus on remaking rare games that most players have never even seen. But they want to maximize profits, so better known games that were in wide circulation and therefore have strong nostalgia value are a safe bet. TAF fits the bill, it was arguably the most popular pinball of all time and if people will regularly pay $5-$6k for a used one, I have no trouble believing they’d pay $6-$7k for a new one. I’m not interested myself, but it would seem like a reasonable business decision for CGC if they want to sell a bunch of machines.

This.

One shouldn't start believing that CGC are choosing games based on nostalgia factor. It is obviously a commercial decision, and with TAF it's very simple. 20k+ pins in circulation doesn't stop them being relatively hard to find in good condition (so, a new one with warranty will be very attractive), relatively expensive when they do come up regardless of condition (so a above average price point has already been set) and they don't hang around for particularly long either (so the market is willing to bear these prices, and demand outstrips supply). On top of that it is said that it still makes good money on route.

A brand new TAFr with warranty would sell easily for ~$7k in my humble opinion.

It's about as risk free a proposition as its possible to be, licensing headaches notwithstanding.

You guys know there aren't actually 20,000 Addams families out there, right?

YEA YOU GET RID OF THEM WHEN THEY LOOSE THERE BALLS

Twilight Zone. A lot of them made, but very few in collector condition. They could sell 2k new TZs for $8500 each with no problem.

Agreed. I really don't think it matters how many were made or how easy it is to find a decent used one. Price is fairly irrelevant as well. A good game is always in demand. Same reason Stern made Metallica so long. Sure you could easily find a used one but obviously demand for nib was high for a long time. Some people rather spend a little extra for nib and not deal with headaches finding a used pin. Plus, you can have nib delivered to your house with a warranty where used means you have to move it yourself and on your own with any repairs. Plus, some guys just don't have a vehicle to move pins or the means to muscle pins up/down stairs.

Hard to quantitate, but figuring there are about 1700 in pinsider's collections, another 500 publicly known locations where they are on route, and figure at least another 1700 in single collection homes or those that don't visit/register with pinside or make it known publicly that they have one, and I'm guessing we're at around 5-6k left out there.

Seems to fit the formula for 25% surviving after all these years, which may actually be on the high side. Probably is.

I'd have no way of guessing the amount that are sitting in operator's warehouses for years after they were taken off route, but I'm sure there are still quite a few. I personally know an old time operator who has at least 5 of them in various states of disrepair up in the loft of his building with missing major components/boards in all them, who flat out refuses to sell anything (let alone these examples (pretty common theme amongst old school operators, right?)), and they will probably be trashed or MAYBE auctioned when he passes...

I'd also guess that a good majority were simply parted out and sent to the pinball junkyard, which absolutely fits the model from that period of time.

Interesting topic.

My guess: They would sell at least as well as a newer, popular, Stern. And probably much better so, as I would bet through the substantial media attention such a remake would get, that it would be bought up as a first (and only) machine by many of my generation who grew up playing them for the nostalgia aspect, especially considering they could literally buy one, hassle free, with a warranty, by picking up the phone or visiting a webpage. Modern day operators would probably gobble them up as well, considering they are proven earners, and they would be hassle free for at least a couple of years considering they are brand new.

It's probably the most recognizable machine in history at this point, where even non pinball people know about it. And a $6k-$7k toy is not a lot of money to a lot people. I'd guess they would sell twice as many of these, as they did afm or mm, especially due to the crossover appeal to non pinheads. Its a grail pin for many pinball people, and a grail item for many people in general, that would never own another pin or get "into the hobby" otherwise.

^ Eruditely put.

There is an animated star-studded Addams Famly film coming out around this time next year too, so the stars are pretty much in alignment if CGC fancies printing some money.

Totally. But it's still safe to assume there are hundreds or thousands more TAFs out there than of the other A-list B/W titles. And the fact that they can still fetch $6k shows very high demand for this game despite the fact that they're relatively plentiful. This is why the entire argument that "there are thousands of them and they're readily available, therefore a remake should never happen" never made sense to me. There's no risk that TAF's high prices are driven by rarity and demand might evaporate once they're freely available (I'd be a little worried about this if I were remaking BBB or CC). TAF, TZ, and IJ would all be no-brainers for CGC if the licensing can be worked out.

Well said.. This is more than likely the truth behind why people do not want the game remade.

Agreed. All three of these titles would sell like hotcakes if they were remade. It's not rocket science. Just look at the Pinside "Top 100". The top three games on the list are currently MM, AFM and MB. It's no coincidence that these were the first three games to be remade. And guess what game is next on that list .... TZ. If you continue to scroll down the list, the next classic games that you come to are TAF and IJ, which are currently tied for 10th place. Assuming licensing isn't an obstacle, it's almost a guarantee that we will see remakes of all of these games at some point down the road.

Not too into a CC or BBB, but man... I'd be on for an IJ, TAF, WH20, or TZ 100%. As an owner of a nice original TOM and MB, I will be refraining from buying any further original WPC games for the next decade haha.

People said the same thing about Taxi "You will never see a Marylin version of the playfield or backglass, her estate won't allow it!"

People said the same thing about The Beatles "You will never see a Beatles pin, Yoko won't allow it !!!"

People said the same thing about TAF playfields "Christopher Loyd won't allow them to be made !!"

People said the same thing about Black Hole "Gottlieb want's too much money, those playfields can not be made!"

People said the same thing about KISS playfields and cab art "Gene won't let any more be made, he wants too much money!"

Yet, all this stuff gets made, again and again and again.

>>>>>>>> No one on Pinside has ANY inside info on licensing <<<<<<<<<<<<

^ read the above again ^

Almost any licensing issue can be overcome with the liberal application of vitamin CA$H.

That's how companies make money, licensing their crap on Slurpee cups, Kleenex boxes, cuff links, Christmas ornaments.

I used to laugh when EVERYONE said that MB could not be remade because the 70 year old Universal Monster's license was too much money.

The ONLY way money is made on those crusty old movies is.....wait for it....licensing.
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Marilyn (Taxi) is a very poor example of justifying pinball licensing, because it was unsuccessful.
Williams just "went ahead" and attempted to use her image in 1988, and their bluff was called by her estate.
Roger Sharpe reported WMS management did not want to pay her estate via negotiation (as production was already in full swing), and hence the color, text, and image were changed. Hence, the 200 samples, and a handful of added playfields.

Regarding licensing, Beatles pinball was never successful in acquisition during the 1960s and 70s at their height through Bally, and Bally did the next best thing by copying certain aspects for their game "Beat Time" in their straight line artwork, which absolutely wanted to be released as the Beatles. However, Bally was smart enough to not start a war with Northern Songs Ltd. Yoko Ono was not a decisive factor, costs of licensing were. I don't recall off hand who managed the licensing at Bally without reference during that period.

The TAF deal with Roger Sharpe were originally used via the first movie with the Paramount Studios, not heavily influenced by individual actors specifically or even the original creator, Charles Addams (estate), which would be much more common today. Roger Sharpe reported back in the late 90s (after production) how fortunate that they were able to acquire licensing rights in terms of reduced complexity, as this really was remarkable in inclusion of success. This is something that that has changed significantly with licensing of any older property. Negotiations with all actors and estates would be required. The Christopher Lloyd anecdote was was provided in discussion with CGC in consideration of a remake as part of "the A-title list".

Black Hole potential licensing was nixed after Disney wanted too much money for the license, and hence Gottlieb decided to go their own route with design/artwork and save money. The 1979 movie and 1981 game have no relationship. The discussion was very short, as the Gottlieb management was not interested in heckling. The remanufacture of parts has never been a major issue for Gottlieb games including Black Hole, as long as the maker stepped forward first to Gottlieb Development LLC, provide a high quality product, and did not try and side step licensing. Things such as pop bumper caps have been made several times.

I cannot speak for KISS, as after the original Bally game was made, I never followed the band, trends or licensing aspects for this property.

I don't know why people would suggest that pinball enthusiasts are not familiar with history, as we were collecting and involved in the industry. Do we need Mr. Sharpe himself who is still very much still still involved in licensing, report on the status of the changes today? The licensing "net" today is much, much tighter than it ever was from the 1960s-1990s. The level of blurred lines of copyright, likeness, and trademark infringement was absolutely ridiculous in the past. Manufacturers went as far as possible to cut corners, today they just get caught even quicker due to social media.

Pretty sure he was referring to licensed repro parts, not original licensing.

Isn’t it funny that Christopher Lloyd didn’t have any issues with the BTTF pin or the OG Addams pin just the digital version? That makes me kind of believe the theory they probably didn’t come up with much of an offer.

Taxi is the most perfect example of what this thread is about.

People who know nothing about licensing, standing on a soapbox, and shouting to the world how something can't ever be remade.

Then, without fail, a few years later, the product is indeed licensed and reproduced.

Highly unlikely. The lower they go down the list, the more they get into diminishing returns territory.

3 or 4 more (tops imo) and they're done. Could be less if CCr flops ... and they're going to have to do one hell of a lot of work on that game to sell anywhere near 1000 LEs, or even 1000 total.

The historical significance of The Addams Family pinball cannot be understated. It is the true Beatles of pinball in the sense that there was a pinball world before it, but once it was released, pinball would be changed forever. And like the Beatles, all these years later, despite the "innovations", it is still quite hard to top. Therefore, as cool as a shiny brand new TAF could be, I would love to one day own a nice original.

Every TAF I've played in the wild has been in poor condition, which is good, because decades later this thing is still being played to death, so much so it's hard to maintain them on location.

In one location (Tilt Cafe, Birmingham, UK) it was the only game in the line up of new Stern's and JJPs being played, I had to wait!

The Addams at Tilt has gone now. Was gutted when I was there last weekend.

I am not an NIB buyer but a TAF remake would be something I'd very seriously consider getting in on.

And I'm saying that as I sit two blocks from one in great shape on location.

TAF has been out since 1992 it made 20,270.
If that 50% for every ten years thing holds true then
3610 should be left that are still functional, obviously it's probably more then that.
the pinside map accounts for 2,173 of them.

Much easier to buy a new game, then spend countless hours fixing an old one to make it "like new" again.

What I don’t understand is the vehemence against people who think TAFr is viable. The argument against remaking TAF has nothing to do with what is or is not available on the market currently. The market is there and it is a renewed interest in pinball, 90’s B/W machines, and instead of trying to find someone willing to part with a nice HUO, or a refurbished, or basket case looking for some sweet love, the market wants shiny NIB TAF and are willing to part with at least $6000 to $8000 to get one. Those remaining originals from the 20k+ original runs have homes right now... not that many nice ones are moving around. You want a really nice TAF? I think CGC is your best hope and best shot. So why argue? Its pointless and doesnt help us get any new TAF’s manufactured. Not speaking for anyone else here except those like me... someone with $8000 and looking for someone to take my money.

Exactly

Take my money

I could care less if TAFr is made - whether I like originals or not - but if you really want a nice TAF, you can find one $8k. A lot have gone for sale for less than that - nice ones. It’s not an ultra rare game

the remakes are in some ways better than the originals especially if you want a like new or CQ game. If there were no remakes ever maybe I could see spending a lot for a CQ pin. Some people don't care about quality and they can get a TAF for $5K but some would rather have new or like new and if CGC is going to make more games TAF should be on the short list.

No one disagrees with anything you are saying. The point is that rarity alone has little to do with how well a remake will sell. All that matters is whether there will be sufficient demand at the remake price point. For reasons repeated ad nausem in this thread (popularity, nostalgia, high price despite relatively large supply) it seems likely there’d be strong demand for a $6k TAF remake.

Every time I open this thread I get the itch to sell my game I spent $11k+ restoring on before the remakes come out. I gotta stop doing this.

Here ya go. Want a really nice Addams? Two are for sale at 10k
And two not so nice ones for 6.5k

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I recently plunked down for a HEP TAF. Great pin! No regrets either way.

I have a pinball website. I get lots of inquiries about buying pinball machines.

90% of them are “do you have an Addams Family for sale”

Like - literally 90%.

Figuring that there have been like 1000 different pinballs made over the last 50 years, the demand for that one machine from the general public is overwhelming.

Used Addams here in NZ and in Australia are selling for $8000 for a restore candidate up to over $10,000 for a nice example.

New Addams would sell shitloads.

Take it to the bank.

rd

I would rather buy a new one. I really do not want to buy a machine and then have to spend more money on it getting it up to scratch.
There are plenty of me all over the world.

And.. I own a nice original TAF

Personally, I prefer the original ones. I have one that’s 80-90% and that’s fine for me.

But I can appreciate that some people would prefer a new one.

rd

I hate the remakes because they affect the value of the classic originals, and I hope it stops before every B/W gets a clone.
Same applies to autos, homes, works of art, anything potentially limited or unique.
I'm on the losing side of this debate, of course, because that's our new 3D printer world.

For those CQ people out there, who play only 1 game a month, change out there pinballs after 120 plays, wax and clean it prior to every play session, re-rubber everything every spring, and have every key fob, speaker knock out, poster, flyer, spare translite, pf, and cabinet side art, plus autographs of every designer, engineer, and every drill jig lady who lifted a finger putting it together, plus every tiny LED lit doll house figurine mod that even remotely ties in with the original theme, plus a 3 hour unboxing video on Yourube that has 32 views, plus 47 posts on facebook and a Snapchat album that chronicle the journey of your machine from factory loading dock, till its parked in your game room.

Yeah, for this person. Thats who will buy one.

HAHAHA! I can totally imagine this...

That said, I'd probably buy one at the 6k price point. And not film it, nor get autographs. And I don't have snapchat. And the box would be cut up and put into the recycling bin. And I'd play the hell out of it because, you know, its a pinball machine...

Some enthusiasts forget that there are collectors that been involved in the hobby so long (30+ years), they already figured out of what was not exclusively about playing or CQ, but the direct history. Learned in time, if time permits.