both have early code, and both are about the same level when it comes to code. Therefore it's NOT to early to judge both, since they are about in the same area.

That being said, I have wayyy more games in on hobbit than I do on GB. But the layout on Hobbit just isn't doing it. I think it would have benefited from NOT being a widebody. True it has more features than it looks like, but it's a flawed design in many aspects. The rollover lock buttons are in a horrible location. Pop flaps divert the ball on slow rollers. None of the inserts have text to direct you. By looking at the playfield alone, you have no idea what is going on. That is not how that's suppose to work. Even with the game off, you should be able to study the playfield and have an idea what does what to some extent. JJP has really moved off that path, so he has the freedom to change the rules and software however he likes, but takes away from the easier aspects of understanding a games rules.

That being said, I had more fun playing the couple games on GB than I ever did on the 60+ games of hobbit I played over the past 2 years.

but LOTR also has the safe repetitive boring ass Fan pattern layout that is used, when someone doesn't want to have to think about a layout or risk something new. So the only thing LOTR would have is a ruleset, otherwise it would just fade into the other 35+ games with the exact same layout. The problem with Hobbit, isn't the rules, or the software for the most part, besides being overly confusing., it's the layout and design.

I'll give hobbit props for trying a unique layout. But sometimes it works. (IE: SOF, Shadow ect) and sometimes it bites you in the ass.. (IE: Gold wings, BW100, ect). Hobbit kinda works, but in some ways, doesn't.

that's the thing. I think only advanced players that own it, will have a chance to enjoy it. On location, you really have so much that is so difficult to figure out, the casual player is going to dismiss it. It is not straightforward in the slightest on telling you what you need to do, or even what's going on.

the layout is ok, but has a lot of wide open nothing. The flaps on the pop-a-orcs and the L-O-C-K roll over buttons divert the balls, much like cupped inserts do on old EM's and early SS games. A slow roll will stop right in the middle of the playfield and go right down the middle, when a ball normally wouldn't without the design flaws. He really should have went with proxy sensors for the lock buttons. It would eliminate that issue. The pop-a-orc flaps are annoying, but don't screw you over as bad, due to their locations when they divert the ball.

code finishing isn't going to change the layout or design.

well I still don't care for WOZ either.

yea, but do you have any clue why it popped up? do you know what it is advancing in the software when you do hit it?

everyone knows what to do with stuff in a machine when it comes to hitting it with the ball. Understanding how it effects the software and scoring is where knowledge comes into play.

i've played the new code. It's not like I didn't just play it again. I've played it pretty much at every stage of it's life. Just because they are not used randomly, doesn't mean anyone understands any better WHY it's popping up. Mode? Hurry up? monster advanement? Planet alignment? Midnight madness? Games doesn't want you to be able to shoot there? The fact still remains...nobody seems to be able to figure it out. Well only the 10 of us standing around trying to figure it out. When you have no seasoned pinball players able to figure out what's happening and why it's happening, something is wrong.

It's true it's good to have depth and things to discover in a home collection. But when the only thing people can figure out is how to lock a ball, it becomes unfun and frustrating. A lot of the problem is the fact the playfield has little to no information on what to do. And just because you can't figure it out, doesn't make it good for being at home. If you have every played Mystery castle or Operation thunder. Sometimes shit happens and big points are scored and you have no idea why. It's confusing in many aspects. Disorganized confusion is not fun. LOTR is complex and deep, but gives you easier upfront things that most people can figure out. Which keeps you playing and interested enough to play more to figure out more and more. With hobbit, you go to instant complexity, where you don't have that initial interest to keep you playing. Locking balls and starting that one multiball gets old real quick.

if it was just me, sure you could chalk it up to that. But when you have 10 other experienced tournament players also completely bewildered on WTF is going on, there is some sort of problem.

just stating that the rules are a big clusterfuck that is not easily understood after 10 or 20 games. any Stern, DE, B/W, Capcom, and most gottliebs, you know a majority of the objectives or have at least a upfront knowledge on what to do. That doesn't seem to be the case here.

keep in mind during those 60 games was over a period of 2 years. So everytime you get to play it, things are different than they were the time before. It's not like we played 60 games just last weekend. Which made it even more confusing. Just when you think you have a grasp on some little aspect. It's not like that anymore when you play it 4 months later. And I don't have a grudge against the game. I've stated many times that I really really wanted to like the game. I love the subject matter, and love LOTR. Would have been great to have a partner game to add to my LOTR. I was looking forward to it.

Same with WOZ. have you seen the physical manual for playing the game? It's like a god damn sears catalog. how are you suppose to fully understand a game playing at tournaments or route, with rules like that? Back in the day, the reason it was so fun playing games on route, was figuring out things, but the game had enough on the playfield for you know, if there was more the figure out. Like Addams. Once we learned how to have a game last longer than 25 seconds,(no ball save was brutal back in the early 90's) we started figuring out, there were things called modes, that were timed. We could see on the playfield, the door panels light up. But there was always that elusive ? door panel. But it never gave us that one. But it was staring us in the face. Next year, TZ came out, with the same thing. That ? door panel is what drove us to keep playing and trying to figure out what it does. It was right there. Wasn't hidden on page 475 section 2, of a book, that blows your ball bag out to lift it. Right there, on the playfield. That's the simple shit you need for a game on route. that's the simple shit you need, for newer people in pinball. If you want to attract and draw in a new fan base to the pinball world. It's not more blinky lights, or a pretty screen with animations. It's a game people can walk up to and understand enough of the objectives and goals, to keep them playing again and again. That's the point i was trying to make.

have you seen the actual printed manual? holy shit is it big and heavy. Now out of that, I don't know how much is schematics and tech stuff and how much is rules. I didn't thumb through it for a long period of time. If it's mostly tech stuff, that's good, as you need more details in the tech department in manuals.

well then, while I got you here. Explain the hex's to me in hobbit. Do I get something if I make straight line? Or a smiley face in them? Is there any benefit to getting lines or sections? Is it just random?

as long as there are enough, easy to understand objectives that are fun. It will keep people coming back to learn the in depth stuff.

If you go by premium pricing. Even if you get the other crap that you don't need, like the color DMD ($400), shitty invisaglass ($150-300)and different colored powdercoated armor ($320 for a 9 piece set from Virtuapin.net) any color you want, your still not even close to the price of hobbit. Even if you pay on the higher side of premium like $6700-6800.

The LE is overblown price with an imaginary perceived value because of the "limited" edition status. Which in reality. There are plenty of games where the premiums are less run that the LE's that were run.

the powdercoat is the same on both. The black is also high quality, you are just getting a different color. Really nothing different. 100% color changing inserts is useless and confusing. WOZ is all color changing and it's a shit mess to sort out. Yes it's nice having some shots with controlled color changing, so you can double up jackpots and modes, but that's about it. And display. Meh. I don't get a hard on for color displays. I can't even glance at the DMD when i'm playing. Only time I even get to see animations, is when i'm watching someone else play. Until a year ago, I didn't even know there were clowns in Tommy's multiball. I"ve had the game for like 8 years.

powdercoat is powdercoat. It's the same process in both. You can have rough or smooth types. Anyone that does powdercoating can vouch for this. It's not rocket science. You are not getting some big "Special' powdercoat on JJP games. If Stern used the same color they could do the exact same look and feel. Wouldn't cost them a penny more than the black.

as for your picture examples. Out of those 3. Sorry, but i'd be watching the beatles on the ed sullivan show compared to your other examples.

you don't want every game out there, to have long ball times like LOTR, TSPP, SM. They are good for at home, but if your playing with friends or hosting league, those games are usually taken out to cut down on time. Who wants to be playing LOTR with 3 friends and have a hour and half game for one game? LOTR is always passed by with anything group involved. Games Like, IM, I500, GB are great for groups and leagues. Fast ball times, challenging and brutal. When you have a nut kicking game like that. It just feels that much better when you have a good game happen for once. You actually feel like you accomplished something.