yeah. I played both at MGC... Hobbit was a dog, slow and long long shots. Still feels like last years version except the trolls pop up like crazy. I think it could be fun in a home setting so you can just get game after game and dive deep into the rules, but uffda, those shots. I agree with above, it would of made a great standard body game....

The Hobbit is wide open but there is actually a lot going on in the game. There are 4 pop up targets, 11 drop targets, Smaug, the two ramps with the interactive divertor, two magnets in the back, subway, windlance that interacts with button, and the mini LCD toy.

I do agree that the state of the code seems odd considering how long the game has been in development. However, I do think that player's and owners are in for a treat with what Keith has planned for the game.

those pop up trolls take away from the gameplay. i'm not saying i need only games with great flow, but those trolls are too much. they're cool for your first few games but they get old fast. maybe Keith will add a setting to disable them.

At some point Jack had to make a decision to release a game with not much code wise and at least get excitement going about them finally shipping, or wait a few more months, get the code at least to a spot where the game is deeper. I am not sure what made them decide to release the game with less than 1.0 software. Perhaps too many people were causing a stir, or they were loosing more and more pre orders?? Either way it was a loose loose situation. You ship early, people complain about the code, or you wait and develop the code more and people complain that the game still hasn't started shipping. Regardless, so many lies were made about the production and development, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. No reason the code shouldn't of been further than it was as people were told.

I think it's pretty easy to figure out why they rushed these out the door:
1. To get the monkey off their backs from being 15 months late.
2. New money
3. Ghostbusters.
4. New money

Interesting thread. I'm considering one of these two currently myself. Love my woz, met and acdc and wanted to add something different. I really liked TH last year at replay, but watching videos currently it seems to be missing a bunch of variety. GB looks good, but I'm waiting to see the premium as I think that's the model to get. My only concern is if GB is different enough from metallica to justify it. My other option is to wait and hope star wars is announced later this year. I'm leaning towards a GB premium currently.

oh, gb and met are very different.

I've played both only once at MGC and I'm on the internet. Therefore, I'm an expert!

Both games looked fantastic. Art is the only thing that is always on and there is no need to put a cover over these games.

In my one game, TH felt floaty and slow. My immediate reaction to my wife was that I felt like I had just played the best looking EM ever. Obviously, it's not a fair assessment, but it was my initial reaction.

GB was fast and indecipherable. I hit posts for most of my shots and it ended quickly. Watching the other more skilled players in my game group, it looked like fun. It's really not and I know it's the same designer, but I walked away from GB with a Creature vibe.

Knee jerk reaction was way more positive for GB, but I could see where spending a ton of time on a dialed in Hobbit would be a blast.

It's all pinball!

I liked Full Throttle more than either Hobbit or Ghostbusters.

More like 2 years late. TH was supposed to come out Summer '14. That's around the time I gave up waiting and sold my spot.

both have early code, and both are about the same level when it comes to code. Therefore it's NOT to early to judge both, since they are about in the same area.

That being said, I have wayyy more games in on hobbit than I do on GB. But the layout on Hobbit just isn't doing it. I think it would have benefited from NOT being a widebody. True it has more features than it looks like, but it's a flawed design in many aspects. The rollover lock buttons are in a horrible location. Pop flaps divert the ball on slow rollers. None of the inserts have text to direct you. By looking at the playfield alone, you have no idea what is going on. That is not how that's suppose to work. Even with the game off, you should be able to study the playfield and have an idea what does what to some extent. JJP has really moved off that path, so he has the freedom to change the rules and software however he likes, but takes away from the easier aspects of understanding a games rules.

That being said, I had more fun playing the couple games on GB than I ever did on the 60+ games of hobbit I played over the past 2 years.

+1 on this sentiment. I was very surprised with how fast and "flowy" FullT was for a widebody. Loooooove that lower inner orbit shot behind the RH ramp.

Later,
EV

P.S. Love the avatar.....we're re-watching and on season 3 right now....
"What do you want you moon-faced assassin of joy?"

All I know is that without Keiths code work LOTR would suck and would not be the great game it is considered today. Once all of the modes are in TH, all of the custom callouts are in, and the modes themselves are polished I think TH will be an incredible pin.

All pins are just a fancy box of lights without code. Keith Johnson, Ted Estes, David Thiel and JP are putting a huge amount of effort into the code for TH. No one should be underestimating the quality of work those guys can pull off. The work those guys are putting into the game will bring the layout, toys and features alive in many unique and fun ways.

All I can say is hobbit is way better then woz and is fun; but we all know it is not a speed demon but definitely better then woz for sure

but LOTR also has the safe repetitive boring ass Fan pattern layout that is used, when someone doesn't want to have to think about a layout or risk something new. So the only thing LOTR would have is a ruleset, otherwise it would just fade into the other 35+ games with the exact same layout. The problem with Hobbit, isn't the rules, or the software for the most part, besides being overly confusing., it's the layout and design.

I'll give hobbit props for trying a unique layout. But sometimes it works. (IE: SOF, Shadow ect) and sometimes it bites you in the ass.. (IE: Gold wings, BW100, ect). Hobbit kinda works, but in some ways, doesn't.

Actually, I don't think the Hobbit layout is unique like SOF or Shadow. There are no inner loops or hidden passages.

It's pretty wide open with two ramps, two orbits and a bunch of drop targets. The pop-ups and the software combine to keep the game interesting. For example, the ramps are pretty easy to hit, but hitting a ramp a second time causes a pop up to block its entrance, so no running off 10 ramp shots in a row.

Either ramp can be hit from either flipper, but only from a cradled ball so control is rewarded.

So far it is not boring at all as there is so much to do and explore, and this with the game not even to a point yet where mode selection and more advanced scoring strategies come into play.

It's a blast to watch others play. To take turns coaching each other along and to see the animations you're missing.

I think newer players will like it because of the great sound and visuals, the ability to flail away without insta draining (though ball times can be short) and because the pop ups provide an easily identifiable, not too hard to hit target and corresponding feeling of accomplishment.

I think more advanced players will like it because the shots feel good, the rewards for advancing through the game (scoring, audio and visual) and because of the underlying strategies a Keith ruleset usually brings to the table.

that's the thing. I think only advanced players that own it, will have a chance to enjoy it. On location, you really have so much that is so difficult to figure out, the casual player is going to dismiss it. It is not straightforward in the slightest on telling you what you need to do, or even what's going on.

the layout is ok, but has a lot of wide open nothing. The flaps on the pop-a-orcs and the L-O-C-K roll over buttons divert the balls, much like cupped inserts do on old EM's and early SS games. A slow roll will stop right in the middle of the playfield and go right down the middle, when a ball normally wouldn't without the design flaws. He really should have went with proxy sensors for the lock buttons. It would eliminate that issue. The pop-a-orc flaps are annoying, but don't screw you over as bad, due to their locations when they divert the ball.

Not so fast Awesome dots, audio, & theme integration. Second to none...especially with the ColorDMD mod.

Perfect example of using old technology better than new technology. Sure, The Hobbit images are crisp/beautiful, but they don't tell the story the way LOTR does. Sure, The Hobbit audio platform rocks when compared with LOTR, however the audio content just seems better integrated into the game (which makes it more fun & rewarding). From my perspective, LOTR is a far superior game done by a cohesive team that nailed it from day 1. I'd like nothing more than to like The Hobbit better...I've owned LOTR for 12 years and would love to replace it with something better.

Yes, the layout is mundane, but just like AFM, LOTR is the total package.

I've played both and have both on order. Hobbit is a deeper game that will require more time to fully explore and flesh out. GB looks to be more fun, at least in the short run. The real test will be how much I want to come back to each for 1 more game...

GB is a game you buy

TH is a game you order

I suspect you can have a GB in your house within <45 days but a Hobbit order made today may go unfulfilled until 2017

But which will have complete code first?

Dunno

Let the code finish first...WOZ was weak when it first hit too. Now it's spectacular. Let it get worked out first and then judge.

code finishing isn't going to change the layout or design.

People said the same shit about WOZ.

well I still don't care for WOZ either.

"It is not straightforward in the slightest on telling you what you need to do, or even what's going on."

So when there are moving targets and trolls that pop up, you don't know what to do? Let's not exaggerate here...

Disable pop-up, get out the useless 3rd flipper. is it an ikea game?

Joe Balcer, the dude that designed both WOZ and Hobbit no longer works for JJP. Dennis Nordman didn't work out.

Lead designers are responsible for pulling all the elements together. Some do it better than others, but turnover in a small company isn't good. I'm sure Keith's rules will help, but TH didn't converge and the fact that JB left almost 1 year ago isn't goodness.

I had a great game on TH and wasn't "feeling it". Building great products and great teams goes hand-in-glove. If JJP pins were being judged solely on their BOM (Bill-Of-Materials), they'd win hands down. Unfortunately, there's this element called inspiration that seems to be missing. LOTR was done by an inspired team. Even if it's not your cup-of-tea in terms of play, it's impossible to ignore the attention to detail on theme integration.

I am pretty sure Pat helped finishing design of the pin. Could be wrong but that is what I was told.

I agree with you on almost everything except for "LOTR was done by an inspired team". Well it was, but if you are inferring that The Hobbit isn't then I think you are wrong. Keith is a big LOTR fan, and everyone has seen what he can do with a theme. David Theil on music is probably the best in the business. Playfield toys and art fit the theme perfectly. The animations and borders on the LCD are also true to the them. Look at the passion in their voices talking about their pin -

Compare that to George Gomez latest speech at TPF where he talked about LOTR and that he wasn't really into the theme as much as the coders and that he hates the way that pinball is progressing by coming too complicated etc. I dunno, I just don't get the same vibe. George is 100% business. Maybe I am getting sucked into Jack's sales pitch.

I can understand if people hate TH because of Keith's coding style. It is not everyone's cup of tea. I understand if the shots don't seem satisfying to some. But theme integration and passion for the pin is something I think JJP are 2nd to none. If you disagree with me just have a look at GOT playfield with close to nothing representing the world in which the pin was inspired from. Have a listen to the sound and there is a LOT missing. During every multiball you have this repetitive music playing that just doesn't make you really like you are fighting a battle. Take a look at walking dead where the community replaces the entire speech with snippets from the show because the call outs are so bad. I actually enjoy playing both of those pins but you cannot say that Sterns design and passion for these pins is anywhere near Woz/TH.

What is so good about AC/DC? The modes for the songs are pretty boring. The pin rocks because of its awesome sound and because of the risk/reward of cashing in that massive song jackpot. That's ALL CODE. Crank it up? Same thing.

Anyways. I love stern. 8/10 of my pins are made by them. I love JJP, I love anyone that has the balls to make pinball. I have TH preordered, and 99% sure I will buy GB premium once it comes out.

With a 3 year delay people can initially be nothing but disappointed with TH but I really think it will be a great pin.

edit:

This kind of reminds me of the Xbox One / Ps4 argument. Ps4 knocked their reveal out of the park(GB) and Microsoft totally stuffed it up (TH with 3 year delay). Fast forward a couple of years and there isn't a massive difference between on paper them but PS4 sales are massive in comparison because people love to choose sides and be apart of the winning team. The stigma of Microsoft's crappy release will never wear off despite their efforts.

yea, but do you have any clue why it popped up? do you know what it is advancing in the software when you do hit it?

everyone knows what to do with stuff in a machine when it comes to hitting it with the ball. Understanding how it effects the software and scoring is where knowledge comes into play.

The pops ups are no longer just being used randomly and now have meaning / purpose based on the games rules.

Keith Johnson is the Yoda of pinball programing, the grand master lets say, lol. He has another masterpiece ruleset in the oven for The Hobbit.

i've played the new code. It's not like I didn't just play it again. I've played it pretty much at every stage of it's life. Just because they are not used randomly, doesn't mean anyone understands any better WHY it's popping up. Mode? Hurry up? monster advanement? Planet alignment? Midnight madness? Games doesn't want you to be able to shoot there? The fact still remains...nobody seems to be able to figure it out. Well only the 10 of us standing around trying to figure it out. When you have no seasoned pinball players able to figure out what's happening and why it's happening, something is wrong.

I've played both. I'm a casual pinball player with no preference to manufacturer. I have been interested to see how TH turned out as I anticipated evolutionary improvements over WOZLE (which I own). Although I really like the pop-up trolls, I actually find WOZ more fun to play. I also find the LCD to have a dizzying and confusing amount of info on it compared to WOZ. I like it, just not enough to sink $8k+ into one. Maybe TH will grow on me as the code continues to develop and I'll purchase one later, but for now, it's not on my 'want' list.

GB is a fast pin with quite a few good shots... and that's the pro model. Slimer is very satisfying to hit, I really like the tight right ramp along with the wider flipper gap. With the added features of the LE (love the cab/rails), I went with the GB LE.

I wouldn't put too much brainpower into it...as soon as you figure it out, a new update will tweak the rules some more.
I'm going to enjoy following the updates and discovering the changes...

.....If I ever get my machine before the last update...

I can't wait to get my GB premium and one day see it with the black Zombie Yeti proton stream armor, side art panels, the Ecto-1 topper, the rumored proton pack wand add ons, and a ColorDMD (once support is out). The game is going to incredible!

Even with all those add ons desribed above a decked out premium will be the same price if not less than a Hobbit LE / SE.

This is what will make the game great in a home collection.

If you and 9 other guys can figure out everything you're supposed to do in your first couple of games, something is wrong.

This game is designed to grow as you get better. It would absolutely suck in my opinion if it was so simple that it could be figured out quickly.

It will have more lasting power if it isn't a simple game.

Things will make sense in time. To expect to understand it right away would make it a shitty game.

It's true it's good to have depth and things to discover in a home collection. But when the only thing people can figure out is how to lock a ball, it becomes unfun and frustrating. A lot of the problem is the fact the playfield has little to no information on what to do. And just because you can't figure it out, doesn't make it good for being at home. If you have every played Mystery castle or Operation thunder. Sometimes shit happens and big points are scored and you have no idea why. It's confusing in many aspects. Disorganized confusion is not fun. LOTR is complex and deep, but gives you easier upfront things that most people can figure out. Which keeps you playing and interested enough to play more to figure out more and more. With hobbit, you go to instant complexity, where you don't have that initial interest to keep you playing. Locking balls and starting that one multiball gets old real quick.

When you play the trolls in MM, you specifically are starting a mode.

On Hobbit, it just seems that they're always popping up for no rhyme or reason other than that the majority of the playfield is so sparse and lets have the orcs/goblins/trolls pop up because there's nothing else to do. Frankly, I find that it gets annoying.

Based on my time on the game as it currently sits with the kickback, ball save, center post, trolls and rules, it just feels like a flail fest with long ball times. YMMV

Keith is great. I'm sure he will have all the angles covered from basic rules to expert rules by the time it's all done.

As far as getting info to the players is concerned, he has not 1, but 2 monitors for that! So why would you need this playfield to tell you all the info? It would only limit the modes and make the display redundant.

So, I wouldn't worry about not getting info to the players in this game. You'll just have to continue dissing the game on the playfield layout...

But you forgot to mention that Pat Lawlor came on board and helped with the finished redesign of hobbit which Joe miffed originally.

Heard from the horses mouth that Joe parted ways from JJP after his work was complete. Any changes made after he left were revisions.

TH is still going to be great but it probably could have been better if it had a lead designer throughout the process. (...and a smash-able, ball-spitting dragon.... )

I would love to see the "trolls" pop up out of the playfield when the characters are present in the mode/scene you are participating in. For example, if the mode involves Smaug attacking the town ... no spiders. Make the characters appear in context, and make them show up as they do in the film. When the Warg riders attack in the mode/scene, then have the Wargs and the Orcs pop-ups appear. Perhaps you have to kill a certain number of them to get away.

I believe (hope) this is already being done.

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P.S. The context makes it more interesting than, for example "bash the spiders". The context being that you have to get through Mirkwood to continue the quest, and there are x number of spiders in the way. You must kill them to progress on the quest. (It would also be cool to see a different spider get killed in the video each time you kill one of the spiders to get through Mirkwood.)

I don't understand what is so complicated regarding the pop-ups.

If you go down a lit inlane, the corresponding pop-up will rise. Hit it and the triangle insert in front of it will turn yellow to let you know you've defeated it. Defeat all four and start a two ball multiball.

They are also used in various modes where appropriate, corresponding to scenes from the movies. During these instances, the oblong insert in front of them will glow orange. The mini LCD will also tell you what needs to be hit as you advance in the mode.

For example, there is one mode where you are trying to escape the orcs and wargs. The orc and warg pop-ups are up, blocking the right vuk and orbit shot you need to hit to complete the mode. You have to hit the left VUK or left orbit to temporarily "hide" (make the orc or warg go down) to open up the shot. This is clearly spelled out on the mini LCD.

Each time you make a shot that advances the mode the scene on the main LCD will change to the next animation in the mode and text will say something like "excellent" or "good shot" or "keep going", etc...

It reminds me of the Dragons Lair video game in this regard. You want to keep hitting the correct shot to advance the mode and see what the next animation/sound bite is.

Again, the mini lcd will tell you what needs to be done as the goals often change as you advance through a mode. The shots you need to hit are also indicated by the playfield inserts, though it may take some playtime to recognize it.

From what I've seen, Keith has done a masterful job of making the mode's goals appropriate for the corresponding movie scene, complete with animations and sounds as put together by JP deWin and David Theil . It's challenging for a player to always keep track of these things, but possible. It's much easier having a friend calling out the goals as you play. Like LOTR, you will eventually learn the modes and not need the mini-LCD, using only the playfield inserts to guide you.

The main thing missing in the code right now is there is no cool animation, sound or score reward for completing a mode.

tl:dr Modes are well integrated with the movie scenes and there is plenty of information to guide the player.

This is the case. All of the modes are like this. I think most of the main characters of the movies are represented by shots on the playfield and they are all used appropriately in a mode's goals.

I don't think he actually wants an explanation. If he did maybe he could have read the screen during one of his 60 games on Hobbit. He is having a better time saying over and over that it is too complex. Expect this drum beat to continue.

My guess it just becasaue it's so new and there isn't a ton of time on it...and it was just updated as well.

You are missing the point. Coming in to "fill in" and help out is different that a true project lead that takes responsibility for the entire, finished product. Like the Director/Producer of a film....

There has been a rapid spike in sales/brokering of secondary market WoZ of every version since Christmas.
Collectors/buyers are not holding onto them, some still trying to sell them at near NIB cost.
NIB sales have stalled for remainder.
LEs are popping up all over the place, but I do not know if private sales are all being successful, as there is not enough data yet.
Operators continue to not be particularly happy about maintenance requirements either.

The code did not save the game from waning interest, not that it does not have the Roadshow "wow factor" from the 1990s.
TH may follow in the same suit, but not entirely due to code.
People can be a JJP fan, but unless something dastardly happens with GB code and mechanical feature implementation of Premium/LE units, the title is going to going to get out in front of the pack quick.

Your post is completely unsubstantiated about a rapid spike of sales in the secondary market.

There are very few listed right now, and prices are steady, all above $7k.