It's a wide body.

Going by looks I would agree with you. TH looks as bare as a Stern. If that is the way he is going Im out all together

We'll have to see what they actually produce.

Man do I disagree, every manufacturer of Pinball through the years has produced both open PF and more populated PF designs, both can hit and miss as the rules and flow of the game are what really matters in the end. Jack made WOZ jam packed with toys, mini PF etc. he has opted for speed and flow with his second pin and I remember him saying he was excited to be making that style. I for one think its great, as for Stern being bare bones, some are loaded with stuff but even the ones that could be deemed bare bones are quite fun, Tron, IM, ST. I would never want every pin to be stop and go and vice versa. Its like women to me, I need variety.

I'll buy one on the secondary market while 50% of those on the pre-order are still waiting.

I'm in..fowsho

If I end up liking the theme I'll be down for one.

No doubt Pat has been keeping tabs on the new releases and technology, and his comments on WOZ tells me he wants something different, this may turn out to be his Magnum Opus. I hope that this game will turn out to be my first JJP.

Today's prices make a lot of buyers hold off for something special or save funds for a purchase. Lot's of different games out there to buy but these prices are hard to justify purchase after purchase!

It would have to be something very special for me to spring for another expensive pin. I am worried that it will be!

I'm not going to blindly buy, but I'll be ready to buy on day 1 if I like the theme and have a good vibe about the game.

If it's true that Jack has more or less given Pat and his team carte Blanche to name this a killer, unlicensed game, then I'm expecting more TAF and less CSI.

With Whirlwind, Safe Cracker, Adams and Gophers in my lineup, I'm really hoping to add PLJJP.

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What were his comments?

Their is a very good chance of that!

Sure... If i play it and like it and can exchange my money for a game within days/weeks, not months/years. I don't trust/believe in the payment plan B.S. I wish more people would take a stand against this horse$hit.

What do you think, one-two years from now, for delivery?

edit:I will wait until I can bring it home the same day I pay for it. Definitely out on the whole pre-order thing.

Could easily be much sooner than that. Their is no law against releasing multiple titles simultaneously.

Nope. Those that want one will have one in 2015. Bank on it.

I agree. One thing I'm worried about though is just how much more a JJP game will cost when it ships versus preordered. Do I think JJP charges less for preordering games versus buying one later on to get more sales early? Absolutely. While some can afford the additional $1000-$2000 price hike later on many can't and will be priced out of the market.

Below are some pricing trends of JJP games.

WOZ ECLE preorder (2011) - $6500
WOZ ECLE preorder (2012?) - $7500
WOZ standard (2014) - $8k
WOZ RR (2014) -$9k

Hobbit LE preorder (2012) - $7500
Hobbit LE preorder late 2013 - $8000
Hobbit LE preorder fall 2014 - $8500
Smaug LE fall 2014 - $9k

Just looking at the numbers and pricing trend above worries me about how much Pats game will be at release and if every JJP game will receive similar price hikes. JJP's pricing model is not substainable in my opinion. The same can likely be said for Stern as well.

This definately has the potential to be the next big thing in pinball. I'll wait until my distributor gets his floor model in, go play it. If I like I'll bring one home. Let's hope TH rolls off the line quickly and with few issues.

Any game over $6500 has to be filled with toys or bling every $1000 in price means less units sold.

I don't think they can ship any till all pre order TH have been shipped .

The preorder model dies here. Wait and see until the game is actually released. Knowing JJP's shady LE practices there will probably be 3 or 4 freaking versions so no "shortages."

With what JJP calls a LE and his prices the shortage will be buyers. The TH LE has still not sold out but 1500 is barely a LE.

I thought this was interesting. Ford is charging $450 more for the 2014 Shelby GT500 over the 2013. That is less then a 1% increase for a car that starts at just over $60k. The $1k price hike that JJP has done over their initial preorder price after a year is nearly a 15% price hike. From $6500 to $9000 for the top tier game in two years it's 28%. Stern charging $4k for a NIB game in 2005 and now $8k for a game in 2014 is 100% price hike... Something doesn't makes sense here and it's not inflation. I'm very happy with my WOZECLE, think its one of the best pins ever made and want to continue supporting JJP. However, these NIB prices and the price hikes that come each year / model from both Stern and JJP are ridiculous. If they continue more people will wait to buy HUO games and older titles.

0.0% chance.

If I play a completed game with completed software and it is great, then I might buy one if I have the spare cash on hand.

No more Pre-orders for me !
(I reserve the right to change my mind ,of course...).

You should add a poll to this.

Demand is through the roof!!!!....Prices meet demand. They will come down once supply catches up which is not anytime soon.

Someone has to buy the NIB first...

http://arcadeheroes.com/2014/01/24/pat-lawlor-joins-jersey-jack-make-original-game/

Thanks for the link

Not until I have played it!

And you don't think they will ship the preordered TH games before the end of 3Q?

I bought WOZECLE. Not even in for game #2, much less game #3.

Learned my lesson the first time.

Complete the friggen' game, then, maybe, I will examine, discuss and decide.

Other than that preorder is a waste of time now.

Glad to see people are finally getting some sense about them!

how about we actually see game 2 ship and played on location and houses before we even think about game 3. If things go south with game 2 and shipping is delayed way to much, there might not be a game 3 anyway.

I can afford even the most expensive pins but refuse to pay 9k for any pin. I'm not terribly excited to pay 6k for a pin unless it's finished and has no serious design flaws. These prices are making me look back at used pins and other hobbies. I'm taking 10k I might have spent on pins and putting a supercharger, Brembo brakes, new wheels and tires on my toy convertible. They can keep raising prices and I will just watch and shake my head.

All you pre-order bashers do realize that if it wasn't for that system, chances are very good that WOZ, The Hobbit, and JJP would not exist, therefore no Pat Lawlor game either.

Has it's time come and gone, it would appear so, but it's only fair to remember that the PO model made possible one of, if not the best pinball machine ever possible.

All that said, The Hobbit will be my last pre-paid game, mostly because of the rising cost of the games, made even worse for me by the falling $CDN.

I would not be opposed to putting a small deposit down on a game, something like the original amount that was required when WOZ was just a dream, $250, more to secure my spot, or #, or a special feature.

The problem is people view pre-orders with JJP to be the same as pre-orders with all the other people that clearly from the start had no ducks in line. I think the pre-order model still works with JJP, despite them saying they are not doing it any more. I wonder if it truly will be the end of it.

agree on all points here. stern and jjp, (pps included), will not only be victims of their own greed by raising prices incessantly, but the strengthening american dollar will put a major dent in their export business.

hobbit @ 9000$ u.s works out to over 12500 cad$ delivered including taxes. i'm not cheap but i can't take it this hard and this deep for a toy.

Not buying any NIB JJP games for several years after seeing this.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/has-anyone-else-had-problems-with-the-pain-chipping-off-their-woz-pf

There was nothing wrong with the system when it started. It's the eventual abuse of the system that is turning people against it. Price hikes, endless delays, and even second limited editions if you want to include that.

First, I am a fanatical PL fan- Ive owned every GOOD game (pre-Stern) he's made.
Second, I wouldn't be "in" on ANY game he made, even if B/W went back into business until I actually played it!

I also don't agree with the oft-stated, shrill decree that "if not for pre-orders, no new pinballs would ever be made."

Please note that MANY (most?) new products were the result of a company taking some risk, investing their own capital or borrowing it and bringing a product to market.

Now I don't blame companies from trying what JJP has tried- pushing all the risk to the consumer. But lets not fool ourselves into believing this is somehow the ONLY way that pinball could be brought to the market. It is simply the EASIEST way for the manufacturer.

//soapbox

Prepayment schemes will continue, so long as there's still an abundance of fanatical/irrational demand that outweighs common sense.

IS there any common ground between the current craziness and rational thinking? Maybe.

I would be FAR more trusting of a program to fund new development that looked more like this:
1. Small initial payment to lock in spot, communicate demand to company (say $500-$1000)
2. one or two more installments to cover the ramping costs of production, materials, etc.
3. Final payment (maybe $1500-$2500) not due until machine is BUILT and ready to ship.

This would maintain the motivation of the manufacturer to DELIVER in a timely manner and somewhat avoid the attractiveness of line jumping new orders because the manufacturer wouldn't already be sitting on 100% of the cash!

Remember when Pinside was divided?

It was like a goddamn pinball civil war for years lol

There was a side saying "preordering is stupid, no way that game will be done Dec 2011". The other side would offer passionate rebuttes about "Faith, journey, rewards & etc"

After 3 years for WOZ, a bummer of a Hobbit reveal, the whole Lebowski shitnado, a game that used to be called Predator, a few Jpop titles still pending, some Vonnie D nonsense & a few other titles...

Now pretty much everyone is like "Nah, I'm good"

Lmfao are we all friends again?

Never weren't .

Pinside Strong!

Dude, you are like a broken record. Like there was ever a chance of you buying a JJP game. That is one thread out of hundreds of games sold. The guy got a playfield sent to him free, no questions asked. As far as I know he hasn't said if Jack has responded. I'm sure it will be addressed.

You buy a game at LE prices then you have to buy or build two playfield rotisserie's. Then the fact this is no god damn flipper rebuild a playfield swap is as big a job as any you will ever do to any game. As for buying a JJP game if they get there games in the $6500/$7500 range with no pre pay then I will consider a JJP game.

I think Jack already said blind preorders are over with JJP after Hobbit.

That said, I want to see what PLD is up to before I buy anything. Also, and it pleases me so much to say this, I want to see what other new pin options arise.

That said, I like what JJP has done thus far and will have a favorable bias towards their third pin, especially if Hobbit is turns out as good as I think it will (and I think it will be a sleeper favorite for years to come)!