Sorry, missed that! But when back and gave you a thumbs up. Something tells me we won't be hearing from Pubaw in this thread again ...

I think you guys are missing the main point with regards to the artwork on this machine.

Classic American pin-up art is considered to be almost a formal art form.

That kind of depiction of women, such as was found on movie posters, calendars, pinball machines, etc., was NOT misogynistic.

Mysogyny means "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women."

Do you see contempt and dislike for women on pinball machine art?

Pin-up art is formally considered to be the kind of art that showcased the sexual beauty of women in a way that was provocative but not explicit.

Because of that, even modern feminists (who get more hateful and moronic every day) consider classic pin-up art to be sort of "empowering."

The problem with this whoa Nellie machine is that the theme of the game is based on a stupid pun.

And the artwork is over the top, it is kind of crass and vulgar.

It's not X-rated or even R-rated, but it lacks charm.

I don't know any women, either liberal or conservative, that would like this artwork.

Personally, I don't like the art on this game. I would feel a little embarrassed by it. If it was more clever or had more artistry it would be OK but it's just a dumb pun with some slightly over-the-top cartoony art.

Kind of agree in that it lacks charm of the 50's artwork and the humor is too obvious, not clever or obtuse enough.

I prefer this kind of humor and art. More subtle.

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Oh, I bet we could find a few folks that identify as feminist that view "classic pin up art" as "objectifying." Just like there are feminists who view at least some more graphic modern stuff as "empowering."

Well, here's a woman that stated in this very thread that she bought the playfield to display in her home. I guess that's no guarantee that she likes it but it seems like a decent sign ...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/whoa-nellie-big-juicy-melons-confirmed-pricing/page/8#post-2323251

Can't wait for mine to be delivered. It's a great addition for collectors who would like a limited EM ,
Yet modern electronics .

What is time, other than Tim with an "e"?

Not to dump all over the machine,

But another problem is that the artwork is in the late 80s cartoon style but the playfield is an old-school EM type.

And the cabinet has that over-decorated flashy style of the 90s games.

So who exactly is this supposed to appeal to?

How is an "homage"? It's too modern looking for an homage to EM games.

Could it be that it has a EM style playfield just because that kind of playfield was simple and easy to reconfigure?

On that topic, why is it so expensive? Surely it costs less to build a playfield for this game than a typical feature-laden SS playfield?

Like I said, I'm not trying to be a sour puss about the game, but I'm just not feeling the $6500 worth of adoration for it.

It happens. To each his own.

Those with $6500 disposable income.

Now that you mention it, it would be pretty cool if a classic EM machine was reproduced with modern electronics.

You'd have the feel and look of the old machine combined with the low cost of a simple SS setup.

Man, i do really like it actually, but the price, hmm, i think it is a bit too expensive for me.

And who also find the game appealing.

The buyer will have both of those two qualities.

If somebody buys this game (or anything else) just because he has $6500 and no other reason, then he has rocks in his head.

This game is priced just about the same as a lot of the 90s collector pinballs.

So why do people keep bringing up income in this thread?

Is this $6500 game supposed to be creating a class war between the haves and have-nots?

What if a guy has only one $2000 pin but he has a boat and a Harley?

Is he a member of the jet set or the unwashed proletariat?

He is the guy that gets laid.

Apparently, you never heard of Retro Pinball's King of Diamonds remake. Yes, there were some things done differently than the original that some didn't like but, it was difficult for us to move 50 units at $3895.

My opinion with the KoD remake is they picked the wrong game to do. Anybody that wanted a KoD could usually find a decent original at a much lower price.

I have a leak on Stern's next game. It's for the ladies.

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Mark Farner approves this message.

"Remember that postcard Grandpa sent us from Florida of that pinball machine pulling on that woman's bottom? That's right, we all thought it was hilarious. But it turns out we were wrong...That pinball machine was sexually harassing that woman."

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All I need is my star trek t-shirt

boom!

panty eliminator

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I agree! (to a degree...)

KOD wasn't a horrible choice for the first game but, it kinda gets old pretty quickly AS a single player...
If it was a 4 player version of Slick Chick or even an Abra Ca Dabra for example, the game would've probably sold better. (ACD's art package alone could sell it.)
The other downfall for Retro Pinball was choosing the larger (more modern) cabinet instead of sticking to the traditional one.
Having the smaller cab's wedge on top just looked too goofy!

I'd bet that if they tried the four player upgraded from single player wedge again with a more popular game (*cough* like Slick Chick *cough*) and kept everything cabinet-wise the same, it would go over like gangbusters.

I'd buy it at least.

Lets see 4k-5k for a Slick Chick remake or 2-3k for an original one in collector condition either restored or not. I love EM remakes but if they were going to do one it would have to be a Woodrail like a 54 Mermaid or a 1950 Knockout. Games that demand big money.

I get what they were shooting for. I didn't know the big Johnson t-shirts but I think it represents the kind of bad puns that are out of character IMO for what they're trying to do.
I've seen all the examples of old timey chicks in this thread, but yet I think what they did is closer to big Johnson shirts than any of that (with much better Greg Freres artwork of course)
Its big Johnson with better art and a retro twist, more than retro pinup homage, in my eyes.

Visually I think it's close to a homerun but it slightly misses the mark because of that. And given that it's probably more eye candy than a real player's machine, the visual has to be spot on.

Then all the collectors would be up in arms. lol

Exactly.
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That wasn't exactly the point I was trying to make Rat but, I do agree that could be a reason for SOME people to pass on it.
The thing I was most impressed about the KOD remake was the four player aspect.
It was just plain fun!
This feature aLoNe could sell plenty of older games that were made only as single players, (including woodrails! ) especially since it held each of the four player's progress within the cpu. Merging the newer technology with the traditional, really worked well on KOD (minus the cab...) and the rest of the bells, roto target and drops in the head sounded and worked as seamlessly as they did on the original so, who cares if it wasn't 100% EM at the end of the day?

I mean,
It was a FOUR freakin' player KOD!

I sincerely wished Retro luck in having additional titles after playing the chrome KOD at PPE and hoped they would've gone back to the traditional cab styling that made EM's so unique for their second attempt, but alas- poof! Gone before people could taste the addictive multiplayer action.

I'll still give WNBJM a shot at TPF if it's there but, not having a gobble hole in honor of the original's awesome risk/reward element; especially now that they've added music/sfx and other goodies(?), it just seems like it's been pedestrianized/neutered for the masses.

I love the prices STERN are now asking for today!
It's now easy for me to say NO MORE to New machines.
Thanks

Sounds less painful than the day at the boutique.
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OMG. That's what wrong with the country... too many people who think this is an overly sexual theme. Yes; there are boobs... but I see boobs on the street all the time. The boobs are clothed like on the street. I'm sorry; if your "woman" has jealousy issues... that's her problem.

I respect my wife... and comment to her about other women all the time... she's level headed enough to not get jealous.

If your kids are sheltered enough to not handle this G-rated Pinball glass; then well... I'm sorry for them when they grow up.

The above may sound like an attack against you personally - not intended that way; It's just frustrated we can't have nice things because of all the political positioning.

If they came out with a cabinet that I could drop an EM playfield in it and a backglass that doesn't flake (all remakes of course)....then I would buy it in a heartbeat. I can imagine it now. you buy a kit for like 800-1000 bucks and you drop that kit in. The mechanics would all be solid state inside but there would be a chime unit and 3 bells. So one minute I could be playing Kings and Queens, 5 minutes later I can drop in an El Dorado playfield and be off and running. I can see it now on the backglass. It would be a plug and play insert that has the proper amount of score reels. They would sound like score reels and look like EM score reels but it would be more like a belt drive with the numbers on it. They have the technology to make an all in one cabinet. It would be nice to see it done. My money would fly out of my wallet. 4k for the initial cabinet with one game of your choice of maybe 5. Then 1k for each game that you plug and play. Maybe said game could have early SS games as well like Centaur or Eight Ball Deluxe as well.

So like a Pin1K? lol

I get your drift RT,
They/we(?) could take it a step further and go the Alltek Ultimate MPU board route, but with 90-or-so selectable EM games instead, making it easier for owners to swap in the populated PF's; of course- wired/keyed for the new system ala Pin2K...
BB setup w/lighting and scoring is another can of worms but it can be solved.
(We can discuss more at the TPF...)
The one-way plug and play on the P2K was pretty sweet and the shower-rail system was definitely a nice bonus. Too bad we didn't get to see more of those made either.

So who's going to kickstart us buddy?

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Not in this particular thread apparently...

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Why does it keep being referred to as an EM??...Do mechanical score reels make an EM??..No no no my friends.. it makes an SS machine with score reels..

.. Return of the knocker!!..Ha ha ha! So what!.. its an extra coil for crissakes.
If it had all the lovely brass leaf switches...score motor.. relays then yes, its an EM.
But this is a SPIKE system shoved in a basic playing field... stripped right back to basics.
The KOD remake is THE ONLY SS machine with score reels listed on IPDB and as stated before.. its price is.. or was?..Oh yes..$3695.. just to add, its a great player too which is what we are all here for yes? Great playing machines.... or is it expensive furniture?

Expensive furniture ! he he.
I think I am the only one to buy. Surely not?
if your ever in Perth Gav, drop in for a whirl. Or I will use it as an expensive boat anchor, just need the boat!

Aside from the ridiculous price, the biggest problem with this project is the game they chose to base it on, Continental Cafe, is not a particularly well loved woodrail, only has one rating on IPDB and that's a 5.4 All the dressing up in the world can't change that it's a ho-hum layout with nothing really standing out, I think all of us EM/Woodrail collectors can think of a dozen games off the top of our heads that would have been a better candidate.

I know this was a pet project of Dennis's, chosen because it was as game he fondly remembered playing, and as a very limited run EM conversion it was fine, but if you are going to charge north of $6K for it, it needs to be a better, more interesting player.

Although it's fun to be a Negative Nancy, do you think anyone would confuse Continental Cafe and WNBJM ?

Different layout, different gameplay.

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Hi vid1900, I think you should read more on the history. Here is an exert so you don't confuse anyone into thinking anything untoward.

Those of us wishing to do create a home-grown Nellie, discovered that the donor game was as scarce as hen's teeth. A couple of guys tried to use a similar vintage Gottlieb game as a donor (i.e. 1956 Gottlieb Toreador), only to discover that the immense conversion task was rendered impossible, without a Continental Cafe because the games shared the same ruleset. Even with the Continental Cafe as the donor, the quantum of work was enormous. For example, both the gobble hole return and the playfield arch had to be modified. The gobble hole scoop had to be customized to fit. Continental Cafe is a 2 player game whereas Nellie is a single player. The list of challenges is long. The WNBJM playfield has a much different configuration from that of Continental Cafe (e.g. multiple gobble holes on Continental Cafe versus a singular gobble hole on Nellie). Consequently, nearly all of those Nellie playfields are likely hanging on walls.

This come from the story on the home page of this forum FYI.

Be nice to see a spinner shot in there.. I do like a spinner shot

On a more positive note, here is a video of the assembly of the first electronic version of WNBJM.
https://vimeo.com/38739652

To be honest, I didn't look that closely at the playfields, I just remember Dennis saying at Expo that it was based on CC. So it's my bad for not checking more carefully, but I stand by my assertion that the playfield for WNBJM is uninspired.

Also, not having any fun at all, as I see this project as doing nothing but possibly causing NIB prices to rise even more

My wife saw pics of this pin last night and said, "that's tacky".

Unless I missed it in the last 16 pages of my lurking, the prude nature of some people is clearly an opinion, and people may say it is in "bad taste", but at least it doesn't cross a terrible line into what is no longer prevalent at all.

Women being objectified is still part of society today, and as much as most don't want to agree with it, or be part of it, human nature makes us fantasize and want what turns us on.

The reason I bring this up is because imagine Stern stepped up and recreated anything else that is politically "incorrect".

Big Indian
Big Brave
Big Sakem Ripepi
Happy-Go-Lucky
Indian Chief
Ten Little Indians

Not a good thing to call the indians....sorry, "natives", red

What about a pinball with blackface?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/63/4e/96/634e96335315c17f1d0af60f5ebe18e4.jpg

Hell, Im considering a Bally S&S.

Much worse than WNBJM.

I think Embryon is pushing boundaries, as you are literally impregnating a fucking machine.

THE CENTER OF THE PLAYFIELD IS A GIANT VAGINA

Allow me to clarify my description of Whoa Nellie and Continental Café as sharing the same "ruleset." Succinctly stated, the majority of the donor game's playfield wiring remained intact for the swap. However, the actual objectives (i.e. the rewards earned for striking specific targets at particular times and intervals) is much improved on Whoa Nellie. Because the layout of Continental Café is, in my opinion, uninspired, the donor game is fairly ho-hum. In contrast, the much improved layout of Whoa Nellie translates into a fun game. Dennis has highlighted the fact that Whoa Nellie has a clear flipper shot up to the top of the playfield. Of course, the flipper return lanes (on a woodrail) are a singularly unique design improvement, which makes the game immensely more fun to play. Also, Dennis made those return lanes steep. Coupled with the tight flipper coupling, Whoa Nellie allows for an exceptionally high degree of ball control at the flippers.

Most (but not all) of the playfield components of Continental Café were repositioned to similarly-located features on the Whoa Nellie playfield. For example, the dual bulls-eye target wiring migrated consistently from the donor game to Whoa Nellie. Nevertheless, Dennis improved the bulls-eye target configuration by making the targets asymmetrical and by adding more distance from the flippers. Dennis retained the original fun feature of the bulls-eye target, which awards an enhanced score for striking the target dead center. In other words, the scoring rules for the bulls-eye targets are shared between the two games. However, the geography of those targets and how they are incorporated into the overall Whoa Nellie game makes for an immensely-improved playing experience.

Dennis made considerable effort to create a balanced game which rewards the player's skill. When Roger Sharpe tested the Whoa Nellie prototype, Roger suggested the addition of some type of shooting objective to the left of the left bulls-eye target. Dennis agreed with Roger's suggestion by adding a star rollover to that area. Indeed, the overall placement of star rollover targets is much better on Whoa Nellie as compared to the donor game. There are more star rollovers on Whoa Nellie. Also, they are distributed throughout the playfield's real estate, in contrast to the conventional linear button rollovers aligned vertically at the bottom of Continental Café. Bottom line: Continental Café is somewhat boring whereas Whoa Nellie is a lot of fun.

Other differences in the game's structure contribute to the fun factor in WNBJM. The reduction of gobble holes is a significant improvement. Also, Whoa Nellie eliminates one of the static bumpers in favor of an improved lane rollover array at the top of the playfield. Likewise, Whoa Nellie clusters the pop bumpers to enhance the action and to open up the flipper shot to the top of the playfield. Whoa Nellie's ball return to the shooter lane on the right and its unusual oxymoronic straight arch (I mean that in a good way) are other examples of design features which make for appreciably different gameplay.

In summary, the primal "ruleset" is shared between Continental Café and WNBJM. However, the gameplay is substantially different. . .and better. The donor game is boring. Whoa Nellie is fun. We can all debate whether the theme is campy, insulting or merely a nod to the vintage fruit crate ads of yesteryear. One thing is certain: the gameplay is much evolved.

The word is overtly, not overly and it has more to do with the primary theme (big titties) than the picture. It has nothing to do with jealousy, but everything to do with objectification.

That's what she tells you.

It's not about "handling" it. It's about age-inappropriate sexualization. Do you want girls growing up thinking if only her breasts are bigger everyone will like her more? Maybe she can make up for her small breasts by doing "favors" for the boys she wants to like her. Sexual objectification has a sub-concious effect on both men and women as well as boys and girls. I don't want my kids thinking their Dad would spend family treasure on something with the primary message being "I like big boobies". Maybe your kids high-five you when the latest Hustler issue shows up in the mail.

And my kids don't watch commercial TV because of the murder indoctrination and normalization of violence, not because of the sexuality. You obvioulsy don't know what G-rated even means if you think this machine is it.

I guess we just have a different understanding of the defintion of "nice" things. But truly, no one is saying you cannot have this machine. In fact, I suggested you should try to get a hold of a "Big Dick" pinball machine if that kind of thing that floats your boat. I'm sure your wife wouldn't mind. You could put it in your living room - right next to your TV.

My point is just that I will never buy a Big Dick, a Playboy or a WNBJM.. and I think these are probably the only 3 machines on that list. That's just how I roll.

It's just like my opinion, Man.

hell, magic city is impregnating an entire city....

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Thank you poster! This is post of the week for me. Bravo and thanks for all the interesting tidbits you were able to find out and ascertain. Can't wait to play this new and unusual hybrid game.