(Topic ID: 214657)

Who is second guessing their jjp potc preorder

By bigd1979

6 years ago


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  • 677 posts
  • 186 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by bemmett
  • Topic is favorited by 14 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Are you gonna cancel your order if the new spinning disk configuration stays?”

  • Yes 230 votes
    62%
  • No 71 votes
    19%
  • Gonna wait it out till my order is ready and then decide 68 votes
    18%

(369 votes)

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Post #15 Video from the designer explaining the changes Posted by bigd1979 (6 years ago)


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#359 6 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

Without going into the entire specifics of both titles, I can summarize WoZ and TH quickly.
JJP underestimated BoM/production costs of WoZ by well over $1000, and initially was selling the game for a complete loss as the game was originally priced at $5500, the highest cost NIB game of the period, not considering the JPop MG fiasco. A huge calculation error. The game concept had been in development for a little less than 2 years. On top of that, some areas that were redesigned for that game alone were the proprietary new design PCBs, flying monkey shot, spinning house, and upper playfield that had to be fixed after the game already went into production among other factors. More costs which resulted in a full production halt for nearly 6 months. After this period, JJP raised prices to attempt to compensate for the changes, but sales continued to be slow afterwards. Most calculate this title has always been a loss, although the multiple versions may have eventually evened the scales. JJP, however, did not remove the features, they were just modified or corrected.
TH shared a similar story, but JJP was financially insolvent and required bailout at that point in the industry, a very dangerous position. The game was even questionable to be built at all. Some of the playfield problems included Smaug, drop targets, and main ramp. There were other literal whitewood shot layout changes, were the game had to be rolled back to the drawing board as they just did not work. This game was delayed for over one in year in development, and two years for production. Much of it due to lack of funding. The eventually release to this game was mixed. Sales were slow.
Reflect on the fact that JJP has only been in business as a company for well less than a decade, and has had to learn how to be a successful company in a market that is volatile and easy changed. Profits have not been as expected. Sales are not anywhere as high as hoped. Stern was not just a competitor at the beginning in 2012-2013 (remember Jack was a Stern distributor beforehand), but physically attempted to prevent him from developing a successful distribution model of his own and make his own games. The "dark side of the pinball force".
Today, WoZ is still considered a bit "wonky" and somewhat unreliable by operators. The game had more of a home use lower use concept in design as some of the mechs are complicated. We have three WoZ games that are all out of commision, and are not priorities presently, but are repairable.
Dialed In seemed to turn it around in terms of physical design and reliability, but the price point to theme for this original title did not appeal to many, although the gameplay is very solid. My operator only bought two, a standard and LE, and they have done well in large venues, but terribly in small ones. Again, all JJP titles have a different targeted audience, and you will rarely sell "thousands of games" at a very high price point in this industry.
Raising the price of a JJP POTC game in the present market to attempt to compensate for more correction, R&D, and not remove features, is only creating a death wish to an already troubled position in this saturated market. I get that wholeheartedly why it was announced for this purpose, but JJP promised they would not reveal another game until it was ready, with no pre orders after DI, and that position was not held, again, as a manufacturer. The why remains financial requirements, but you cannot maintain hype of a pinball machine a year+ after revealed and then bring it into production. More repeated multiple mistakes of the past.
As a final note, up until 2007 (even after BLY/WMS closed their doors), no manufacturer regularly revealed a title that was an unfinished prototype. A company had their yearly Pinball Expo "flagship title(s)" and promoted it heavily for immediate sale and production. Sometimes there would be teasers for the next 3-6 months games, or even prototype playfields but never did they promote selling games that were not ready.
Why?
Manufacturers wanted to maintain the trust of operators and collectors in providing a polished product, not turn the public into a bunch of test monkeys or make them to attempt to buy something (or preorder) a game that would not work, was not ready, or not even know what they are buying looks like. They knew that would more than piss them off. Today that seems to be an acceptable standard.

WOZ started at $6500 for a limited time. Then went to $7500. Was NEVER at 5500.

#391 6 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

Did you buy as a distributor, operator or private owner? Where a person bought the game also made a impact, including direct. It makes a difference here. Did I specify private owners exclusively?
History has a way of forgetting other aspects not considered. Prices were raised twice on this title, not considering special editions (and added further increases) as well as the aftermarket boondoggling.
People wanted a short history not the entire pricing narrative of JJP from 2013-2018 or the development cycle starting in 2011.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

#457 6 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

Here is assistance for a one sentence answer regarding WoZ price indexing.
Betson (west coast) paid $5500 for their bulk WoZ pre-order games in order to get them induced as a new pinball company and promote sales. It was part of negotiations to establish a distribution model, which previous did not exist at all. The whole buy direct concept had just gotten started after JJP established their website for sales. The company which I work paid $6000 for each of the three WoZ games according to the accountant and warranty individual records.
Neither were the suggested MSRP of $6500, which was close to BoM/product costs which included the additional overhead of the production line. Price was raised to an MSRP of $7500 after production recommenced after corrective redesign. The reason was JJP was continuing to lose money on every machine sold, regardless or not they sold in numbers. JJP really did not have a choice. My company refused to buy more games based on their track record on locations, especially for the added higher cost, and general RSD.
People need to stop looking exclusively through consumer lenses, as this is an industry, not exclusively a home market. An industry is not a market. More goes on than building private toys for people's houses, and pricing is far from universal for all parties dependent on sources. In them "olden days" (I can only go back as far as the 80s-90s) you could negotiate prices with local retailers, today competition is tighter due to the internet.
I don't speak for other people, what they paid, taxes including, or shipping, if applicable, but it is quite obvious some are not part of distributor networks or interact with large operators. If a person wants to argue that they paid $6500, and that was the "only price", that is not accurate. Not everyone was fixed at that price. No distributor or operator pays equivalent MSRP, unless the title is ridiculously "hot" as an earner, and most of the time is simply not cost efficient to do so. The answer is "Thanks, but I'll pass", and eventually the title deflates like a balloon, like nearly all do and then they buy a game or two.
I hope everyone gets the quality they pay for regarding their games.
Even Stern for all their QA/QC challenges has done a better job with manufacturing speed and game design (although recycled), especially considering the cost. Iron Maiden was quite remarkable overall, even though I am not a SPIKE fan.
We unboxed a Iron Maiden Pro two days ago, bulletproofed it due to small factory overlooks, and it has already made nearly $300 in less than 48 hours.
Not bad. It looks to be a continued strong earning title.
In comparison to this pinball, some jukebox locations here can make over $1200/month which is considered exceptional. Anything more than $600 is very good, $200-300 average, less than $100 and sometimes the equipment gets pulled permanently, new equipment only. In general, pinball machines do not make money, they just attract customers, except at large specialized venues. We have a backlog of venues that WANT pinball, but there simply is lack of inventory and technicians running full time to keep everything tip top at hundreds of route locations. It is not like route location owners understand what we are all saying, they just want to say "we have pinball machines here!" (to make more money on things like food and drinks)
Pinball is supposed to be about having fun (or money if an operator) anyway and this seems to be forgotten sometimes. If someone wants to buy a $12K unnecessary toy, it should give equivalent joy or income. I don't always see this today for whatever cost, unlike the past.

Thanks, I just learned a lot.

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