Boerne, TX
Quoted from heni1977:That means that 200 CE's would be 2.5 mill!!!!! Thats a big Fing gulp!!!
High profit margin CE's are in trouble, regardless of anything else.
(Topic ID: 214657)
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Quoted from sd_tom:No good gophers doesn't have a problem, which is a lawlor game and lawlor works for JJP
Atually, Gofers does have problems - it will regularly give a putt-out award that's different from what's indicated by the wheel. Not often, maybe once every few games, but it definitely cannot track the spinning disk 100%. Our game was bought brand new and the disk mechanism spins and works fine otherwise.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:What if 10 % of the poll is accurate? Or 5 %?
We all know this stuff is meaningless.
Alot of pinside is meaningless but we all still comment. 
Quoted from CrazyLevi:We all know this stuff is meaningless
Yeah well the only thing less meaningless are comments about how meaningless, meaningless comments are
Quoted from spinal:Yeah well the only thing less meaningless are comments about how meaningless, meaningless comments are
This thread has entered a relevance death-spiral.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:What if 10 % of the poll is accurate? Or 5 %?
We all know this stuff is meaningless.
I wonder if an add-on upgrade kit would be an option.
Maybe ship the games now with the single spinner if they really need to get out the door, then offer the 3-ring spinner at a later date after having some time to tweak the mechanism.
Probably not ideal approach from a logistics standpoint, but it could satisfy customers who really want the mechanism, and could satisfy investors who might be itching to get something out the door.
NGG had other physical problems out of the box including the gophers and lift ramp for the earliest of the production run. It was not a pure flawless product. However, the issues were addressed as service bulletins/parts. It also sold lukewarm as a title at that point in history, and was another title that went on closeout from WMS.
The big difference is after the reveal for starting production, WMS did not not turn around and strip the wheel, gophers, and ramp out of the game, as they were critical features nor decide to change pricing during midstride. Both would have ticked off operators and collectors.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:Without going into the entire specifics of both titles, I can summarize WoZ and TH quickly.
JJP underestimated BoM/production costs of WoZ by well over $1000, and initially was selling the game for a complete loss as the game was originally priced at $5500, the highest cost NIB game of the period, not considering the JPop MG fiasco. A huge calculation error. The game concept had been in development for a little less than 2 years. On top of that, some areas that were redesigned for that game alone were the proprietary new design PCBs, flying monkey shot, spinning house, and upper playfield that had to be fixed after the game already went into production among other factors. More costs which resulted in a full production halt for nearly 6 months. After this period, JJP raised prices to attempt to compensate for the changes, but sales continued to be slow afterwards. Most calculate this title has always been a loss, although the multiple versions may have eventually evened the scales. JJP, however, did not remove the features, they were just modified or corrected.
TH shared a similar story, but JJP was financially insolvent and required bailout at that point in the industry, a very dangerous position. The game was even questionable to be built at all. Some of the playfield problems included Smaug, drop targets, and main ramp. There were other literal whitewood shot layout changes, were the game had to be rolled back to the drawing board as they just did not work. This game was delayed for over one in year in development, and two years for production. Much of it due to lack of funding. The eventually release to this game was mixed. Sales were slow.
Reflect on the fact that JJP has only been in business as a company for well less than a decade, and has had to learn how to be a successful company in a market that is volatile and easy changed. Profits have not been as expected. Sales are not anywhere as high as hoped. Stern was not just a competitor at the beginning in 2012-2013 (remember Jack was a Stern distributor beforehand), but physically attempted to prevent him from developing a successful distribution model of his own and make his own games. The "dark side of the pinball force".
Today, WoZ is still considered a bit "wonky" and somewhat unreliable by operators. The game had more of a home use lower use concept in design as some of the mechs are complicated. We have three WoZ games that are all out of commision, and are not priorities presently, but are repairable.
Dialed In seemed to turn it around in terms of physical design and reliability, but the price point to theme for this original title did not appeal to many, although the gameplay is very solid. My operator only bought two, a standard and LE, and they have done well in large venues, but terribly in small ones. Again, all JJP titles have a different targeted audience, and you will rarely sell "thousands of games" at a very high price point in this industry.
Raising the price of a JJP POTC game in the present market to attempt to compensate for more correction, R&D, and not remove features, is only creating a death wish to an already troubled position in this saturated market. I get that wholeheartedly why it was announced for this purpose, but JJP promised they would not reveal another game until it was ready, with no pre orders after DI, and that position was not held, again, as a manufacturer. The why remains financial requirements, but you cannot maintain hype of a pinball machine a year+ after revealed and then bring it into production. More repeated multiple mistakes of the past.
As a final note, up until 2007 (even after BLY/WMS closed their doors), no manufacturer regularly revealed a title that was an unfinished prototype. A company had their yearly Pinball Expo "flagship title(s)" and promoted it heavily for immediate sale and production. Sometimes there would be teasers for the next 3-6 months games, or even prototype playfields but never did they promote selling games that were not ready.
Why?
Manufacturers wanted to maintain the trust of operators and collectors in providing a polished product, not turn the public into a bunch of test monkeys or make them to attempt to buy something (or preorder) a game that would not work, was not ready, or not even know what they are buying looks like. They knew that would more than piss them off. Today that seems to be an acceptable standard.
WOZ started at $6500 for a limited time. Then went to $7500. Was NEVER at 5500.
I keep seeing the term 'BOM' used. I am embarrassed to ask but can someone tell me what "BOM" refers to? Thanks in advance.
Quoted from arcadem:I keep seeing the term 'BOM' used. I am embarrassed to ask but can someone tell me what "BOM" refers to? Thanks in advance.
Bill of Materials
Quoted from arcadem:I keep seeing the term 'BOM' used. I am embarrassed to ask but can someone tell me what "BOM" refers to? Thanks in advance.
What they said above.
Unlike "bomb" or "the bomb", which was used to describe the spinning discs when first revealed, and subsequently what was dropped when it was stated they would not appear in production games.
Quoted from tonycip:BILL OF MATERIALS
It means Bill of Materials. It is the exact cost (not counting R&D, advertising, overhead etc.) of the materials that go into the production of a single pinball machine.
BOM is a closely guarded secret that NOBODY outside of the industry actually knows to any degree of certainty. A BOM has NEVER been released publicly to the best of my knowledge for any machine in the history of the industry. Nobody really knows what the BOM of any machine is, or how much higher or lower the BOM of any machine between models or manufacturers is.
That being said...EVERYBODY here is a BOM expert. People generally think they know what a game costs, what parts cost, and how much higher the BOM is between models and manufacturers, and base lengthy rants and arguments on the imagined BOM.
I generally refrain from BOM assumptions as I at least like to attempt to give the appearance that I have some idea of what I'm talking about, but this little detail doesn't seem to matter to most folks.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:It means Bill of Materials. It is the exact cost (not counting R&D, advertising, overhead etc.) of the materials that go into the production of a single pinball machine.
BOM is a closely guarded secret that NOBODY outside of the industry actually knows to any degree of certainty. A BOM has NEVER been released publicly to the best of my knowledge for any machine in the history of the industry. Nobody really knows what the BOM of any machine is, or how much higher or lower the BOM of any machine between models or manufacturers is.
That being said...EVERYBODY here is a BOM expert. People generally think they know what a game costs, what parts cost, and how much higher the BOM is between models and manufacturers, and base lengthy rants and arguments on the imagined BOM.
I generally refrain from BOM assumptions as I at least like to attempt to have some idea of what I'm talking about, but this little detail doesn't seem to matter to most folks.
A some WPC games have the complete (or nearly so) list of parts available for the game--just no prices.
BOMs for the Bally home edition games were recently discovered ad added to piniwiki (but again, no prices):
Quoted from ForceFlow:A some WPC games have the complete (or nearly so) list of parts available for the game--just no prices.
BOMs for the Bally home edition games were recently discovered ad added to piniwiki (but again, no prices):
Right! I've seen those. But the total price is what we all care about, right?
That's an OM, not a BOM!
Quoted from CrazyLevi:It means Bill of Materials. It is the exact cost (not counting R&D, advertising, overhead etc.) of the materials that go into the production of a single pinball machine.
BOM is a closely guarded secret that NOBODY outside of the industry actually knows to any degree of certainty. A BOM has NEVER been released publicly to the best of my knowledge for any machine in the history of the industry. Nobody really knows what the BOM of any machine is, or how much higher or lower the BOM of any machine between models or manufacturers is.
That being said...EVERYBODY here is a BOM expert. People generally think they know what a game costs, what parts cost, and how much higher the BOM is between models and manufacturers, and base lengthy rants and arguments on the imagined BOM.
I generally refrain from BOM assumptions as I at least like to attempt to give the appearance that I have some idea of what I'm talking about, but this little detail doesn't seem to matter to most folks.
THANKS TO ALL FOR YOUR RESPONSES! THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHY/HOW PINSIDER IS SUCH A GREAT COMMUNITY.
MIKE
Quoted from CrazyLevi:That being said...EVERYBODY here is a BOM expert.
Dude, Panzer is da BOM Bomb! We all know this.
Quoted from Guinnesstime:Dude, Panzer is da BOM Bomb! We all know this.
Lol! I don't know what to say. Bring back the spinning disks?!
Quoted from wolftownjeff:WOZ started at $6500 for a limited time. Then went to $7500. Was NEVER at 5500.
Did you buy as a distributor, operator or private owner? Where a person bought the game also made a impact, including direct. It makes a difference here. Did I specify private owners exclusively?
History has a way of forgetting other aspects not considered. Prices were raised twice on this title, not considering special editions (and added further increases) as well as the aftermarket boondoggling.
People wanted a short history not the entire pricing narrative of JJP from 2013-2018 or the development cycle starting in 2011.
Quoted from arcadem:THANKS TO ALL FOR YOUR RESPONSES! THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHY/HOW PINSIDER IS SUCH A GREAT COMMUNITY.
MIKE
Dude,
Why are you yelling?
Are you still coming down from that Beyoncé concert? 
Quoted from NimblePin:Dude,
Why are you yelling?
Are you still coming down from that Beyoncé concert?
Sorry. I forgot I had the caps lock key on and I was too lazy to retype my message.
I wanted to see what my dad thought of the change as he got me into pinball. He doesn't own any pins but loves playing. His direct words about the new map are and I quote "That looks like sh*t, they could of at least made it look like the original". Harsh words but I can't help but to agree. JJP should at least change the decal so it blends better into the games artwork.
Check out Keefer's update along with rendering in the UPDATE thread.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jjpotc-updates-for-production/page/12#post-4345534
Quoted from dnaman:Check out Keefer's update along with rendering in the UPDATE thread.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jjpotc-updates-for-production/page/12#post-4345534
Still looks like dog shit to me although with a hidden mickey.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:It means Bill of Materials. It is the exact cost (not counting R&D, advertising, overhead etc.) of the materials that go into the production of a single pinball machine.
BOM is a closely guarded secret that NOBODY outside of the industry actually knows to any degree of certainty. A BOM has NEVER been released publicly to the best of my knowledge for any machine in the history of the industry. Nobody really knows what the BOM of any machine is, or how much higher or lower the BOM of any machine between models or manufacturers is.
That being said...EVERYBODY here is a BOM expert. People generally think they know what a game costs, what parts cost, and how much higher the BOM is between models and manufacturers, and base lengthy rants and arguments on the imagined BOM.
I generally refrain from BOM assumptions as I at least like to attempt to give the appearance that I have some idea of what I'm talking about, but this little detail doesn't seem to matter to most folks.
Oh come on, figuring out the BOM is easy! Just find a comparable part at Pinball Life, record the cost as 1/2 of the retail price (in this case I’m pretty sure we can assume at least a 100% markup) and there you have it!
Take the missing spinners on a Met Pro for example, each full spinner assembly is about $20 at PBL, so total cost Stern saved by stripping them out of the Pro was probably < $10 considering discounts for their high parts purchase volumes.
You can build an entire TNA from parts available at PBL as well. Would be a fun project to calculate the full retail parts price BOM for that game. 
Anyone change their mind back to staying in after seeing today's live stream with the new spinning disk?
Based on today’s update cancelled my CE.
So disappointed with the approach taken.
....and still waiting on my DICE lunch. :p
Warrington
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Anyone change their mind back to staying in after seeing today's live stream with the new spinning disk?
The exact opposite, seeing the new mech has made my decision 100% out, big fan of the movies and really wanted this game, but the new mech literally has no effect on the gameplay, compared to the original triple spinning disc which put some crazy spin on the balls.
Quoted from iceman44:When can i preorder Willy Wonka Odiner!?
Couldn't tell ya! But your Batman66 is looking worth every cent now.
watched the stream and agree the disc didnt really affect ball travel so it really has no reason for it to exist tbh.
still think the game looks fun, never was in on it never would be at the cost, but ill pump some quarters in it on location either way
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Anyone change their mind back to staying in after seeing today's live stream with the new spinning disk?
I waited for the stream before making my decision.
After watching I sent the email and pulled the plug from my POTCLE order. Mainly I didn't like how the new setup looked with the single disc in action. Really the old setup looked a LOT better, and had a higher end look to it. They did an amazing job with the original 3 disc design. Embedded LEDs, coupled with a matching animation. The single disc with no LEDs had no appeal to me, and detracted from the overall experience of the game. Like others, the theme was so-so to me, but the code, video execution, and machine design hooked me.
Bottom line is I couldn't fall in love with the game today, so I'm officially out. Which is sad. So now I have no idea what pin 3 will be for me. I have a DILE and TNA. Maybe wait until later in the year, or look at some older titles. Nothing really calling my name.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:Did you buy as a distributor, operator or private owner? Where a person bought the game also made a impact, including direct. It makes a difference here. Did I specify private owners exclusively?
History has a way of forgetting other aspects not considered. Prices were raised twice on this title, not considering special editions (and added further increases) as well as the aftermarket boondoggling.
People wanted a short history not the entire pricing narrative of JJP from 2013-2018 or the development cycle starting in 2011.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Quoted from InfiniteLives:watched the stream and agree the disc didnt really affect ball travel so it really has no reason for it to exist
So funny people keep saying that. I watched 5 minutes of play on the stream and one time I saw the spinner going, it drastically altered the ball travel and sent it straight down the middle.
To quote a jjp employee (no one has paid for anything) now jjp loses all around. Pretty stupid decisions by jjp. Glad most are able to get out of there deposit since no one has paid for anything right keefer?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:So funny people keep saying that. I watched 5 minutes of play on the stream and one time I saw the spinner going, it drastically altered the ball travel and sent it straight down the middle.
It sounds like you will be happy with your game.
Which model are you getting?
Next up I predict a price reduction of 500.00 to try and save all this. I know 500.00 doesn't change anything for me!
Quoted from zaphX:I’m out. Just sent the heartbroken email.
The new disc is noisy AF, and it seriously has no reason to even be there now. Really bummed.
Go buy that mint Tron LE. (There is a beauty here in NJ that is ready to ship at a fair price.)
I promise it will make you feel much better.
Quoted from Mike_J:Go buy that mint Tron LE.
Now there's a spinning disc that really serves a purpose!
Quoted from Mike_J:It sounds like you will be happy with your game.
Which model are you getting?
Lol
Oh never mind. I’m not buying a game so I guess I can’t point out that disc does indeed spin and make the ball move.
Didn’t mean to get in the way of the meltdown.
How much money did you lose on this project again?
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