These suggestions are wildly entertaining.

Kinda disappointed no one suggested a live fish tank. This is JJP people!

This made me laugh pretty good, then i thought of this scene from simpsons.\

Disco Stu (resized).jpg

A common theme on Pinside is to estimate games sold times by highest price posable and say Gary is rich of Jack will be fine. I have seen the estimate on distributors share as low as $200 and never as high as $1000 a game. The fact is distributors share for a game is %40 to %50 of retail so an LE POTC JJP makes $4,750 to $5,700

Not sure if I'm reading this right but are you suggesting that distributors are making more per game than the actual manufacturers? A POTC LE costs a distributor $4750 to $5700?

Did I miss the press release where JJP is asking the public for suggestions to replace the disks?

well, if it makes you feel better someone suggested a real maelstrom with fluids inside a container and lights and whatever.

Not a chance and far from fact. At best I would Guess (not fact) they make 10-15% Tops. Throw in a few machine issues and I would be amazed if they make money at all. The distributors are not getting rich at Least not to the tune you pitch. lol

it seems they cant figure it out on there own..

Wouldn’t be the first time.

No way dude. Distributors make around 10%.

LOL like I said people will not admit that distributors make over $1000 get over it. Who in their right mind would buy a DI CE for $11,000 in hopes of selling it for a $1,500 profit yet here we are 18 later and they are not sold out. The only way the profit margin is that low would be Jack fronts the games distributors pay for a game only once sold. A %100 mark up at any retail establishment is standard

I like the fact that those that want to can get their money back no questions asked and

get on with their lives like nothing happened.

We will see what happens when 200 plus people want their money back. Does JJP have the funds to make it happen.

cause jjp wants to turn your cash into a maelstrom to their bank account after changing the main toy into a pizza.

I think most money back will be coming from distributors making %10 at most

hqdefault-1 (resized).jpg

Thanks for your wonderful addition to this thread criticizing the fact that we are even offering suggestions.

Missing the plot here. If you haven't noticed we are discussing details about the hardware, how it was released, the future of JJP, possible solutions etc. We never think there is some high probability that JJP will all of a sudden do a 180 but JJP have been responsive in the past so we're holding out hope.

The manner in which this was announced and the severity of the cutbacks (this was an expensive main feature of the game) is leaving us all a bit stunned. It really is like a punch in the gut from the company we love.

Now the plot...

Many of us have been discussing possible solutions to what was expressed as the problem in the first place... the fact the 3 spinning disc assembly is unreliable and is too loud. A good compromise has already been suggested here: keep the hardware exactly as is and just use the rings in a different way. Not for imparting action with high speeds but rather very slow moving rings that are programmed to be part of the gameplay. This solution is silent and reliable to the best of our knowledge. Yes this suggestion gives up all the spinning action it would impart upon the ball but we would still get the very cool piece of hardware and as previous post have discussed, could even improve the game.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/potc-save-the-3-disks-poll

Now it's quite possible that JJP have thought of this and decided to remove the entire assembly. Now if JJP did think of this, then why would they yank it? Do you think Eric would really decide to remove the centerpiece of the game? Remember that this is central to the theme of the game and the element of this game that Eric was most proud of during release vids.

So let's assume that by some chance they did not think of using the disc slowly. It's really such a good idea that if they don't pivot and go with something like this now, then it's clear that it wasn't in fact reliability or volume that was a problem - it was something else.

Now this is going to come out one way or another but if it's the case that they are lying to us hobbyists and really this was a cost-cutting measure or something, then should we really be happy about this? Let's not forget those in Europe who have non-refundable deposits -not cool.

Anyway, those of you who take everything and anything the way it comes and feel your completely powerless all the time - good for you. But please don't criticize those of use who are offering suggestions and typing in real content into our posts instead of jokes or personal insults. We care about this hobby and care greatly about the future of JJP and just want this to work out the best it can at this point. JJP have pivoted and improved upon mistakes they've made in the past and we're hoping that this is just another mistake that they will rectify. I really hope this is not a new kind of JJP we are seeing here.

As I work directly with distributors and those that buy quantities more than a single game, there are additional factors.

Distributor profit is determined by the number of games purchased (preorders), previous sales, and length of relationship with a manufacturer. Even this is not always a guarantee. Betson on the west coast for example only were able to get a pre-order for 4 Iron Maiden LEs instead of their normal 8 machines recently.

Rarely do distributors presently make more than $500 per game today (pinball only, as different types of games can have more or less negotiaion), even LEs as operators will not buy them if extremely marked up above production costs. Keeping in mind even operators do not always get any type of "deep discount" either below the MSRP range of pricing. It really can depend on popularity too! There is no 40-50% retail profit concept. Those days are long gone, simply due to the fact the volume of pinball game sales is not there.

However, the main point of this thread is that removal of features of games, normally is a result of cost savings not RSD (reliability-serviceability-durability), in order to maintain projected MSRP. JJP most likely made an error with BOM and development, and now is going to attempt damage control by adding back some type of low cost cosmetic solution to appease customers. The dangers of an early reveal and accepting preorders...

Where does this assessment come from?

For those that may not have been involved until recently, this also happened with WoZ and TH, but simply less people were aware or cared when it happened. Hence, a repeated error. The main difference is the designs were eventually corrected, but resulted in JJP losing more money. We all would like JJP to be on solid ground, but this industry remains problematic, and market saturation continues.

I personally did not think JJP would have these problems again, since Dialed In was quite solid, and had a massive amount of test location play across the country before formal production.

I wonder if the problem was stopping the rotating disks at certain points and lining everything up correctly? If that's the case why not leave the 3x spinning disk mech in the game but then pull the ability to have it line up? The reward feature could then still be done using the new LCD map animations which personally I think pull a rewarding effect off better then the physical toy.

Did JJP clarify if it was a "getting the game play right" or a "durability of the mech" issue?

I believe I read somewhere it was the durability of the mech over time. I should have saved the link, but something about gears stripping (bad) vs belts (requiring a redesign). Might have been BS, but it seemed sensible.

The leading proposal at

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/potc-save-the-3-disks-poll

requires no changes at all be made to hardware.

It requires only that:

1. The disc as it is has the ability to report via sensor (optos) what position it is in. I'm pretty sure it can do this as it was made to award random rewards.

2. That a disc that spins quickly can spin slowly. Now I can't really see why a variable speed disc could not more slowly.

I really wish someone else would chime in on this with more knowledge about this hardware but until then I can't see any reason why this is a stretch.

Importantly, this proposal is using the exact same hardware but with very slowly moving discs that have lost their original purpose of imparting spin on the ball, but now instead rotate around each other during gameplay. You make shots and depending on modes or goals, rings rotate around each other. You make a good shot and you get closer to aligning the rings for a mega jackpot or something else, then maybe you miss a shot and it is undone. So the better you are, the better you can align the rings to get the prize - exactly like the movie. Again for those of you new to this idea, there is no spinning except maybe slow spin to an original position at beginning of ball or mode, but rather rings might move to next orientation every once and a while and that's it. Like clock hands that can move in either direction except with discs.

The main point is the 3 rings still look very cool on the playfield and becomes more apart of gameplay - more than just the random prizes as before.

MOST IMPORTANTLY - this proposal should not require hardware changes - only software which makes it amenable to JJP's current rush, cut and run approach so I'm hoping has a greater chance. They could even ship and the code could catch up later if they are in such a rush.

Anyway can't see how this is less crazy than suggesting we throw away the entire mech and replace with a stock motor - I mean, I still can't believe this was suggested! It's called NOT THROWING OUT THE BABY WITH THE BATHWATER.

BTW, aurich's idea is brilliant but I'm going with the easier approach above because it seems as though JJP has already thrown in the towel and is on a rush mission, so trying to salvage with ideas that are the absolute easiest and quickest so that there is a hope.

Negative, ghostrider. Inferred based on Eric saying new disc will be more reliable and quieter.

How about a tank filled with kinetic sand? Or a Tesla coil? Tesla coils are cool.

You are so far away from reality. You think a car dealership gets their cars from the manufacturer for $20k and sells them for $40k as well?

A 100% markup may apply to some smaller, low-cost retail items - clothes, shoes, etc. But there are many, many items that are around +/-10%: video games, consoles, legos, cars, machinery, etc etc.

It could be that getting them to stop at an exact position from a disc that is rotating at high speed was indeed difficult. At slow speeds this should be easy so this is again a reason why the proposed compromise should be considered seriously by JJP instead of throwing away the whole damn thing and replacing with a cheap stock disc.

fireball_3 (resized).jpg

Video games are absolutely not on a 10% margin at wholesale or retail. This I can say with authority.

Without going into the entire specifics of both titles, I can summarize WoZ and TH quickly.

JJP underestimated BoM/production costs of WoZ by well over $1000, and initially was selling the game for a complete loss as the game was originally priced at $5500, the highest cost NIB game of the period, not considering the JPop MG fiasco. A huge calculation error. The game concept had been in development for a little less than 2 years. On top of that, some areas that were redesigned for that game alone were the proprietary new design PCBs, flying monkey shot, spinning house, and upper playfield that had to be fixed after the game already went into production among other factors. More costs which resulted in a full production halt for nearly 6 months. After this period, JJP raised prices to attempt to compensate for the changes, but sales continued to be slow afterwards. Most calculate this title has always been a loss, although the multiple versions may have eventually evened the scales. JJP, however, did not remove the features, they were just modified or corrected.

TH shared a similar story, but JJP was financially insolvent and required bailout at that point in the industry, a very dangerous position. The game was even questionable to be built at all. Some of the playfield problems included Smaug, drop targets, and main ramp. There were other literal whitewood shot layout changes, were the game had to be rolled back to the drawing board as they just did not work. This game was delayed for over one in year in development, and two years for production. Much of it due to lack of funding. The eventually release to this game was mixed. Sales were slow.

Reflect on the fact that JJP has only been in business as a company for well less than a decade, and has had to learn how to be a successful company in a market that is volatile and easy changed. Profits have not been as expected. Sales are not anywhere as high as hoped. Stern was not just a competitor at the beginning in 2012-2013 (remember Jack was a Stern distributor beforehand), but physically attempted to prevent him from developing a successful distribution model of his own and make his own games. The "dark side of the pinball force".

Today, WoZ is still considered a bit "wonky" and somewhat unreliable by operators. The game had more of a home use lower use concept in design as some of the mechs are complicated. We have three WoZ games that are all out of commision, and are not priorities presently, but are repairable.

Dialed In seemed to turn it around in terms of physical design and reliability, but the price point to theme for this original title did not appeal to many, although the gameplay is very solid. My operator only bought two, a standard and LE, and they have done well in large venues, but terribly in small ones. Again, all JJP titles have a different targeted audience, and you will rarely sell "thousands of games" at a very high price point in this industry.

Raising the price of a JJP POTC game in the present market to attempt to compensate for more correction, R&D, and not remove features, is only creating a death wish to an already troubled position in this saturated market. I get that wholeheartedly why it was announced for this purpose, but JJP promised they would not reveal another game until it was ready, with no pre orders after DI, and that position was not held, again, as a manufacturer. The why remains financial requirements, but you cannot maintain hype of a pinball machine a year+ after revealed and then bring it into production. More repeated multiple mistakes of the past.

As a final note, up until 2007 (even after BLY/WMS closed their doors), no manufacturer regularly revealed a title that was an unfinished prototype. A company had their yearly Pinball Expo "flagship title(s)" and promoted it heavily for immediate sale and production. Sometimes there would be teasers for the next 3-6 months games, or even prototype playfields but never did they promote selling games that were not ready.
Why?
Manufacturers wanted to maintain the trust of operators and collectors in providing a polished product, not turn the public into a bunch of test monkeys or make them to attempt to buy something (or preorder) a game that would not work, was not ready, or not even know what they are buying looks like. They knew that would more than piss them off. Today that seems to be an acceptable standard.

This is may turn out to be true.

No good gophers doesn't have a problem, which is a lawlor game and lawlor works for JJP

Delete

I love the enthusiasm but IMO this is purely a cost cut so all of these proposals mean nothing unfortunately. This is a bean-counter decision, pure and simple. It's not like JJP hasn't screwed up like this before. The track record is there. Post #330 sums it up nicely. The entire Pinside design team can simmer down a bit and just let JJP do their thing. No sense in fighting it when their profit margin is in jeopardy.

You know it’s still a possibility that it is an engineering issue!

The game designer is a mechanical engineer. Do you really think they would have brought it all the way to this point if they questioned the engineering behind it? It would have been scrapped long ago. Believe what you will but if you look at JJP's past debacles, all signs point to the mighty $$$!

Yes, that would be around 10% and it is more than $300 unless they are a sub-dealer or barely marking their games up.

So there is 183 yes votes right now. Times lets say 9500, How much is that???

Calculator is my friend: $1,738,500

Ouch....... and remember pinside is a small part of the overall community as I was explained. Lol

Criticism is good, if nobody complained on here chances are that JJP would just ram the shitty art spinner down our throat.

Will you’ve made your mind up already and we know how stubborn folks from Canada can be.I personally have done projects before thinking I could work thru it and finally had to accept changes

Well if it’s a decision to cut the BOM they might be saving a $1 now but lose a lot more down the road. My interest in the title has dropped more then 50% by them removing the number one feature of the game.

Can you elaborate? Not sure how my country got into this discussion.

Just kidding I have read comments on Pinside about Americans from your brethren. Just kidding dude!

The people have spoken. (assuming the poll is accurate which it is not). Even if 50% of the poll is accurate, still a large hit to the bottom line.

What if 10 % of the poll is accurate? Or 5 %?

We all know this stuff is meaningless.

That means that 200 CE's would be 2.5 mill!!!!! Thats a big Fing gulp!!!

If it’s a cost cutting or time crunch decision, could it be coming from the new ownership that needs to keep a steady flow of games going out the door? The cost of the building, workers, and other overhead may necessitate this choice.