Hagerstown, MD
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:Im afraid of the price JJP will throw at us for a Toy story pin. I see the base model being 9500 with a 11500 premium, and a 15000 CE. God i hope im wrong.
Me to... i won't b buying at those prices.
(Topic ID: 214657)
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Quoted from bigd1979:Me to... i won't b buying at those prices.
We gotta draw the line. Can’t be buying imaginary games in the distant future at these imaginary prices!
Quoted from screaminr:Who cares if you care, what you say is wrong simple as that.
The mistake is believing that the JJP POTC feature list is accurate today based on already reported removed components. One single feature can directly effects others in design (or further cost cuts) especially when an updated game is not available for inspection outside the manufacturer. Essentially, the list has been invalidated, at least temporarily.
Hobbyists defending imaginary final builds, or even specific marketing methods is being over enthustiastic. Consider this the next time someone wants to preorder. It got people into trouble before, happened with many beta pinball game designs of the past, and is why it is wise to wait for evaluation.
It helps avoid disappointment.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:Hobbyists defending imaginary final builds, or even specific marketing methods is being over enthustiastic. Consider this the next time someone wants to preorder. It got people into trouble before, and is why it is wise to wait for evaluation.
Some are still a little butthurt that they removed the drop target from Dirty Harry and the sinking institute from Earthshaker, or even the third magnet from TZ. Or how bout that middle pop bumper on Bally Freedom? But that did not stop them from dropping plenty of quarters to play them.
Eventually those items that were removed from sample and prototype machines, simply become footnotes in the long, storied history of pinball.
Wow, forgot about Dirty Harry / Earthshaker.... good point.
Quoted from o-din:Some are still a little butthurt that they removed the drop target from Dirty Harry and the sinking institute from Earthshaker, or even the third magnet from TZ. Or how bout that middle pop bumper on Bally Freedom? But that did not stop them from dropping plenty of quarters to play them.
Eventually those items that were removed from sample and prototype machines, simply become footnotes in the long, storied history of pinball.
Quoted from o-din:Some are still a little butthurt that they removed the drop target from Dirty Harry and the sinking institute from Earthshaker, or even the third magnet from TZ. Or how bout that middle pop bumper on Bally Freedom? But that did not stop them from dropping plenty of quarters to play them.
Eventually those items that were removed from sample and prototype machines, simply become footnotes in the long, storied history of pinball.
Players never knew the differences, operators did not care as the core features brought the income to the locations. Collectors were different at the time.
Historians know the design developments with relationships with the industry. There are hundreds of examples of features removed/changed/modified from games all the way up to production, and only a handful were restored such as the ES institute and DW Dalek head made by John Davidson, JD Deadworld ball lock, Boogymen changes from EATPM, CV ringmaster and highwire modifications (don't forget WMS pulled the backbox bell and add feature wiring as well), or even the original Insanity Falls triple split added ramp concept eliminated for WH20 from the original prototypes to mention a few more. In some cases very few examples exist today.
Most of the major feature removals were cost savings, not pure design reliability issues, as from words of higher management, "did not add anything to the core mechanics". Manufacturers had some of the most experienced mechanicaI and electronic engineers in the world developing small intrinic physical mechanisms starting from the 1960s.
Added over 6 years ago: I realized I needed to update one aspect.
Small historical correction on the developer of the aftermarket ES institute and original DW Dalek "wobble head".
The kits were created from the original prototypes and designs by Mark E Davidson, not John Davidson.
Designs that last a lifetime!
Quoted from o-din:Some are still a little butthurt that they removed the drop target from Dirty Harry and the sinking institute from Earthshaker, or even the third magnet from TZ. Or how bout that middle pop bumper on Bally Freedom? But that did not stop them from dropping plenty of quarters to play them.
Eventually those items that were removed from sample and prototype machines, simply become footnotes in the long, storied history of pinball.
I once put that drop target back in for a friend . Changes the play a little , game seems faster and shorter ball times with less stop and go . An arguement sure could be had as to which version is better .
Despite the changes I think JJP Pirates will be a great game . I think at some point the same arguement could also be had on which version of JJP Pirates is / was better .
Quoted from pinlink:Will this reflect bad on Eric in JJPs eyes? I hope not. But he did design the mechs that failed and caused a ton of people to drop out.
Eric didn't design the concentric discs. He just told the engineer what he wanted to have and he designed it.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:Players never knew the differences, operators did not care as the core features brought the income to the locations. Collectors were different at the time.
So it's a "different time" today?
Quoted from o-din:Some are still a little butthurt that they removed the drop target from Dirty Harry and the sinking institute from Earthshaker, or even the third magnet from TZ. Or how bout that middle pop bumper on Bally Freedom? But that did not stop them from dropping plenty of quarters to play them.
I'll drop plenty of quarters into any pinball machine for fun. It's a little different dropping huge stacks of Hundies on a pin to own.
Quoted from iceman44:I'll drop plenty of quarters into any pinball machine for fun. It's a little different dropping huge stacks of Hundies on a pin to own.
Collectors are still dropping big stacks of Benjies on older games that had items removed from the prototype versions.
Perhaps the time has come again to actually wait and let something pay it's dues and become a collector's item on it's own merit, before getting overly excited about it or spending big bucks on it, unless it will be out there earning money as it is designed to do.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:Here is assistance for a one sentence answer regarding WoZ price indexing.
Betson (west coast) paid $5500 for their bulk WoZ pre-order games in order to get them induced as a new pinball company and promote sales. It was part of negotiations to establish a distribution model, which previous did not exist at all. The whole buy direct concept had just gotten started after JJP established their website for sales. The company which I work paid $6000 for each of the three WoZ games according to the accountant and warranty individual records.
Neither were the suggested MSRP of $6500, which was close to BoM/product costs which included the additional overhead of the production line. Price was raised to an MSRP of $7500 after production recommenced after corrective redesign. The reason was JJP was continuing to lose money on every machine sold, regardless or not they sold in numbers. JJP really did not have a choice. My company refused to buy more games based on their track record on locations, especially for the added higher cost, and general RSD.
People need to stop looking exclusively through consumer lenses, as this is an industry, not exclusively a home market. An industry is not a market. More goes on than building private toys for people's houses, and pricing is far from universal for all parties dependent on sources. In them "olden days" (I can only go back as far as the 80s-90s) you could negotiate prices with local retailers, today competition is tighter due to the internet.
I don't speak for other people, what they paid, taxes including, or shipping, if applicable, but it is quite obvious some are not part of distributor networks or interact with large operators. If a person wants to argue that they paid $6500, and that was the "only price", that is not accurate. Not everyone was fixed at that price. No distributor or operator pays equivalent MSRP, unless the title is ridiculously "hot" as an earner, and most of the time is simply not cost efficient to do so. The answer is "Thanks, but I'll pass", and eventually the title deflates like a balloon, like nearly all do and then they buy a game or two.
I hope everyone gets the quality they pay for regarding their games.
Even Stern for all their QA/QC challenges has done a better job with manufacturing speed and game design (although recycled), especially considering the cost. Iron Maiden was quite remarkable overall, even though I am not a SPIKE fan.
We unboxed a Iron Maiden Pro two days ago, bulletproofed it due to small factory overlooks, and it has already made nearly $300 in less than 48 hours.
Not bad. It looks to be a continued strong earning title.
In comparison to this pinball, some jukebox locations here can make over $1200/month which is considered exceptional. Anything more than $600 is very good, $200-300 average, less than $100 and sometimes the equipment gets pulled permanently, new equipment only. In general, pinball machines do not make money, they just attract customers, except at large specialized venues. We have a backlog of venues that WANT pinball, but there simply is lack of inventory and technicians running full time to keep everything tip top at hundreds of route locations. It is not like route location owners understand what we are all saying, they just want to say "we have pinball machines here!" (to make more money on things like food and drinks)
Pinball is supposed to be about having fun (or money if an operator) anyway and this seems to be forgotten sometimes. If someone wants to buy a $12K unnecessary toy, it should give equivalent joy or income. I don't always see this today for whatever cost, unlike the past.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:Players never knew the differences, operators did not care as the core features brought the income to the locations. Collectors were different at the time.
Historians know the design developments with relationships with the industry. There are hundreds of examples of features removed/changed/modified from games all the way up to production, and only a handful were restored such as the ES institute and DW Dalek head made by John Davidson, JD Deadworld ball lock, Boogymen changes from EATPM, CV ringmaster and highwire modifications, or even the original Insanity Falls triple split added ramp concept eliminated for WH20 from the original prototypes to mention a few more. In some cases very few examples exist today.
Most of the major feature removals were cost savings, not pure design reliability issues, as from words of higher management, "did not add anything to the core mechanics". Manufacturers had some of the most experienced mechanicaI and electronic engineers in the world developing small intrinic physical mechanisms starting from the 1960s.
Very curious about the wh20 insanity falls thing?
Quoted from o-din:Collectors are still dropping big stacks of Benjies on older games that had items removed from the prototype versions.
In my case, I've owned a couple of TZs with the third spiral magnet replaced. I love it but this is a minor feature compared to the triple spinning disc in POTC! That really should stay.
The fact that jjp’s latest stream of potc on YouTube has the comments disabled should tell you a lot. Seriously who cares about potc. The movies flopped and the pin appears to be floundering just the same. Stern’s newest designer nailed it. Jjps not so much. I think the main issue is jjp is too much a pin for pinheads solely. Whereas Iron Maiden has the rule set and combos pinheads adore whilst having a theme that appeals to everyone. Even if you don’t like the music its undeniably exciting. Jjp pirates just isn’t as adrenaline pumping and the game feels compromised especially at that price point.
Quoted from Jkush18:Iron Maiden has the rule set and combos pinheads adore whilst having a theme that appeals to everyone.
Quoted from o-din:Perhaps the time has come again to actually wait and let something pay it's dues and become a collector's item on it's own merit, before getting overly excited about it or spending big bucks on it, unless it will be out there earning money as it is designed to do.
That's Old School brother. Those days are long gone Odiner.
Quoted from Jkush18:The fact that jjp’s latest stream of potc on YouTube has the comments disabled should tell you a lot.
Comments for all the live stream videos have been disabled. Not sure it’s just because of the negative feedback from the “tweaks” or they way they have always been. You can still show support or dislike by upvoting or downvoting the video. They do see the public reaction and I’m sure like to see positive reactions
Quoted from iceman44:That's Old School brother. Those days are long gone Odiner.
Then keep on buying those new "collectors edition" pinball machines before you even play it, and be happy with whatever you get.
Quoted from o-din:Then keep on buying those new "collectors edition" pinball machines before you even play it, and be happy with whatever you get.
Gotta have some faith my brother.
Quoted from bigd1979:Very curious about the wh20 insanity falls thing?
In late 1992, Dennis Nordman was interested in doing a full lower wrap around ramp similiar to Stern's Grand Prix and later rethemed to Nascar. It ended with a three way split ramp where traditionally the right slingshot was located, meaning it crossd over the apron region. Placement was modified and elevated to account for the Bigfoot ramp bypass. Eventually the feature was cut to bring back the traditional two slingshot pinball design, and reduce costs, coupled with consistent ball speeds to reach the exits, and response to breaking away from traditional pinball design.
The few prototype games (and their ramps) were still in whitewood when it was decided to go with a single exit and truncate the ramp (which is still one of the longest in pinball history).
You can still find footage/photos of the game and ramps from the 1993 Pinball Expo for verification were WMS showed "teaser" development including artwork from different phases of development.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:You can still find footage/photos of the game and ramps from the 1993 Pinball Expo for verification were WMS showed "teaser" development including artwork.
I bet they didn't stand up there and say -
"Put your $1000 deposit down before the New Year and you can have one of these super collectable versions sometime next year"
Quoted from o-din:I bet they didn't stand up there and say -
"Put your $1000 deposit down before the New Year and you can have one of these super collectable versions sometime next year"
From my knowledge WMS did it as favor for the show as an exhibit to show the phases of pinball design for the pinball public, operators, and collectors. It was not their flagship title anyway.
Quite a bit different from the announcements made by pinball manufacturers today, which look like barkers for a carnival sideshow. It actually can be a bit embarassing to watch.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:In late 1992, Dennis Nordman was interested in doing a full lower wrap around ramp similiar to Stern's Grand Prix and later rethemed to Nascar. It ended with a three way split ramp where traditionally the right slingshot was located, meaning it crossd over the apron region. Placement was modified and elevated to account for the Bigfoot ramp bypass. Eventually the feature was cut to bring back the traditional two slingshot pinball design, and reduce costs, coupled with consistent ball speeds to reach the exits, and response to breaking away from traditional pinball design.
The few prototype games (and their ramps) were still in whitewood when it was decided to go with a single exit and truncate the ramp (which is still one of the longest in pinball history).
You can still find footage/photos of the game and ramps from the 1993 Pinball Expo for verification were WMS showed "teaser" development including artwork from different phases of development.
Thanks for the info
Quoted from dts:Do more features make a better pin? My TZ is way more packed than my MMr, but is it better?
Whoever said more features make a better pin all I said was Pirates is full of features and could anyone name a pin with more.You can have fantastic pins with less features like TNA.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:The mistake is believing that the JJP POTC feature list is accurate today based on already reported removed components. .
The spinning disc wasn't on the list name one thing on the list which isn't there
Come on guys your William's examples are weak. The TZ magnet and DH drop target, CV etc. William's took out a magnet and a drop target. Even with ES the sinking building. They were such minor parts to the game. However had Williams said no ringmaster, no magna flip mini playfield, then it would be more in line with what JJP is doing. They are killing one of the main mechanical toys in the game. Plus NIB William's were 3800 we are now at 9k. Such a dumb argument. I think what JJP is doing is really shity. They dont deserve all the BS cheerleaders. I have nothing against JJP. They have made some really nice machines. But defending their decisions to do a 180 on their customers is terrible business.
Quoted from srmonte:But defending their decisions to do a 180 on their customers is terrible business.
"It's ... just good business!" 
Quoted from Jkush18:o-din you think I’m wrong ? The sales numbers would disagree. So would general consensus.
The hype train happens with every new release ... heck jjp potc went crazy when revealed. The maidien hype will die down slowly until something else is released then will go threw all the hype again on next release lol. Same thing over and over in our small pinball community
Quoted from Jkush18:o-din you think I’m wrong ?
"theme that appeals to everyone" is actually pretty hilarious.
Quoted from o-din:"theme that appeals to everyone" is actually pretty hilarious.
Now if it had been Led Zeppelin
Quoted from _xizor:Basically one of two scenarios exist right now:
Either JJP is clueless about how to handle collector / enthusiast customers and are running into some form of financial constraint regarding this game (Ownership Pressure, Cash Flow, Earnings Target, etc.)
or
none of us collector / enthusiasts matter enough to the bottom line and these design changes help them achieve their goals with a market and demographic that has nothing to do with Pinside.
I've owned all the JJP pins to date, just missing a WOZ in the house at the moment. Pre-ordered a DICE and put up with the lack of communication regarding things throughout the development period. They did make changes from the original pictures presented in the pre-order, no material game play changes occurred, so when it showed up I was more than pleased. I am still waiting on my DICE Lunch though...
I canceled my CE on the second update, which honestly wasn't much of an update. In Canada the final price of the CE would be roughly $18,000.00 and some shipping costs. I can buy a number of light vehicles and other very material personal purchases in that type of price range.
Literally the difference from me continuing to pre-order whatever they made until the end of time like a dedicated customer and me second guessing if I'm going to bother to be excited about ordering anything again is the lack of communication that actually addressed the issue at hand which is:
The game was functionally changed from what was committed based on a set price. They took away functionality that has high PERCEIVED VALUE to the consumer, regardless of what the designer or owners think of the materiality of what was removed, the value taken away hasn't been addressed by them in order to make the customer happy.
The hilarious part is that a direct email or a phone call to the pre-order customer paying 10k+ on a CE unit regarding the situation would have probably calmed us most of to all of the way down. A video really explaining why the spinner sucks and an honest answer about why it has to go and an opportunity for real feedback would have probably allowed them to keep a bulk of customers happy. Which wouldn't cost much at all, yet would allow the perception of value to move from a spinning disk and opening chest onto what we should perceive value, the team and company building this product where we're appreciated clients.
I could have done without the spinner disk, as others have mentioned, it's just a pinball. Which is true, but isn't the point. This pre-order process has left me feeling like JJP as a company doesn't really care if I order or not. I don't feel like being one of the first to pre-order made any difference or me having multiple of their machines makes any difference, they didn't bother to treat me like the customer that I expect to be treated like.
Perhaps my perception is not correct, perhaps JJP knows exactly where their priorities are and we're not it. Maybe they feel because the deposit is refundable in most cases, that they shouldn't need to care or worry if a customer wants to bail out, because they can get their money back.
All I do know is that I'm out on my CE pre-order, I did get my money back and as a customer I feel like I've been screwed.
Now, I PERCEIVE I've been screwed. I'm not out any money, so why should I care?
I emotionally invested in the purchase, which is why I'm willing to pay 10k+ for a CE. I get excited when I pre-order a luxury item, I think about it, thinking about it brings me enjoyment while I wait for it, I get to talk about it with the mates while I wait and get more excited, then I get it and life goes on. The pre-order experience is something that needs to be managed in a luxury good. Which I believe many folks on Pinside see pinballs as, instead of a business item for their Bar, Arcade or Amusement Park.
I PERCEIVE I've been screwed because JJP handled my expectations poorly, didn't cater to my ego, didn't communicate squat to me officially that things had changed. Due to that I have a lack of trust about JJP. Now Jack, Eric and the team are good humans. What I'm talking about is do I TRUST I'll have a good experience the next time I do business with JJP. The answer is I trust them less now as a company than I did before. I don't trust they won't disappoint me in a pre-order process yet again and I don't trust I can buy a CE version of the game without pre-ordering. So where does this all leave me?
The fact that I'm this pissed off about not losing any money has been a great customer case study for me mentally. Luxury market mentally is way different than a FEC Operator mentality. I'm curious to know what percentage of collectors vs operators buy JJP vs Stern. I'm interested to see how many people share this type of view on pinside. I don't actually know if JJP as a company should care about my opinions, but I guess time will tell.
For me, I won't be pre-ordering from JJP for the next game and I'd probably go buy myself a ATV or something else instead of buy another pinball in the next few days to fill my emotional hole where a spinner should be.
I’m sorry but why is this a key post?
You’re super bummed out that Jack didn’t give you a call and something about buying cars and atvs
Should Jack have called or emailed direct to lend his shoulder to cry on for the LE buyers or how bout all buyers for that matter?
Honestly can’t think of a better theme for all this drama to be happening to than pirates, a theme we didn’t really want anyways...like Maiden, we were really just in it for the table
Here’s to looking forward to all the JJP themes currently in the pipe that we do want and will hopefully see!
Eye on the Prize...
Quoted from screaminr:The spinning disc wasn't on the list name one thing on the list which isn't there
On their website currently.
Orleans, ON
Quoted from Pinballlew:On their website currently.
It takes literally 30 seconds for them to change this on their site and yet they still haven't done so. JJP should make up their mind. It's either you are making the damn disc as originally intended or you do the lame ass pizza. Either way, you can't sell smoke and mirrors forever. Choose...you can't have both.
Quoted from pinlink:Will this reflect bad on Eric in JJPs eyes? I hope not. But he did design the mechs that failed and caused a ton of people to drop out.
Quoted from Zavadoza:Eric didn't design the concentric discs. He just told the engineer what he wanted to have and he designed it.
What? Where did you come up with that?
From Eric:
"The triple spinning disk is the first ever mechansim for which I have my name on the patent. "
From Eric's interview with Twip released this morning.
TWIP: "Is it set in stone that it will now include just the one disc?"
Eric: "It is set in stone."
Full interview: http://thisweekinpinball.com
I don't know that the overview description of the game that is on the website is wrong. Though the three rings are gone, there is still "a mechanical spinning disc map" and in TWIP Eric stated that they are still going to display the random generated rewards on the screen - which I think is the "216 animated award combinations for gamers to experience."
Quoted from Burley9043:I don't know that the overview description of the game that is on the website is wrong. Though the three rings are gone, there is still "a mechanical spinning disc map" and in TWIP Eric stated that they are still going to display the random generated rewards on the screen - which I think is the "216 animated award combinations for gamers to experience."
It's deceptive.
Quoted from flashinstinct:It's deceptive.
How so? The description is vague enough to perfectly describe both the old and the new design.
Quoted from flashinstinct:It's deceptive.
It is and they still have the old flyers out with that description on it....just picked one up at a show.
Can't have it both ways...if you are pulling the mech, update the literature.
Quoted from fosaisu:How so? The description is vague enough to perfectly describe both the old and the new design.
You said it yourself... it's vague enough = deceptive. Specifically, if you are still advertising it elsewhere as the old mech. Person picks flyer at Show - then reads that description, I doubt they are thinking the 216 will be animated on a screen instead of the mech seen on flyer.
Quoted from Burley9043:I don't know that the overview description of the game that is on the website is wrong. Though the three rings are gone, there is still "a mechanical spinning disc map" and in TWIP Eric stated that they are still going to display the random generated rewards on the screen - which I think is the "216 animated award combinations for gamers to experience."
Yeah, it's fine.
People are just getting carried away now. This is not between you (pissed off Pinsider) and future POTC buyers.
Quoted from Burley9043:I don't know that the overview description of the game that is on the website is wrong. Though the three rings are gone, there is still "a mechanical spinning disc map" and in TWIP Eric stated that they are still going to display the random generated rewards on the screen - which I think is the "216 animated award combinations for gamers to experience."
I am in agreement on this one. Not sure how you would describe the current set-up differently unless you stated that the animated awards are on the 27" LCD display.
Quoted from pinlink:"The triple spinning disk is the first ever mechansim for which I have my name on the patent. "
Kind of a worthless patent if the thing doesn't work properly.
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