(Topic ID: 223372)

Who Is Out On Tesla Model 3?

By o-din

1 year ago

Topic Stats

  • 509 posts
  • 72 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by DruTheFu
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders


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    Topic poll

    “Why are you out and won't be buying a Tesla?”

    • The company and CEO are a joke, and the car line is a bigger joke 7 votes
    • Don't want to be stereotyped with some of the owners of this thing 2 votes
    • Stocks are on their way out 1 vote
    • I don't want to have to defend my car purchase on the internet 2 votes
    • Won't be living in Oregon or Canada anytime soon 1 vote
    • Big batteries make a big mess when they explode 2 votes
    • My old shitbox runs great and don't need a $50,000 car with no engine 10 votes
    • All of the above 35 votes

    (60 votes)

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    #40 1 year ago
    Quoted from rubberducks:

    I don't think they have any intention of doing recalls unless they're absolutely forced to. They're relying on cult-like loyalty of customers to convince themselves that the defects are normal and the car is great even when it's falling apart.

    This is at least two outright lies, from a lying liar who repeatedly lies about all things Tesla.

    They have shown on several occasions that they are more than willing to do preemptive recalls, like the time they installed titanium armor under my car for free. They also have among the highest customer satisfaction ratings of any car, mostly because they almost never break, and when they do Tesla fixes them.

    Feel free to hate the cars and the company, I couldn’t care less. But I won’t let lies stand without corrections.

    #45 1 year ago

    Corrections to the lies and misrepresentations made by rubberducks, serial liar and misrepresenter about Tesla:

    Quoted from rubberducks:

    Given all the stories about bodges with faulty or damaged parts going into cars

    Actually, no, quite the opposite. They fail quite a lot of parts because they want the cars to be superb:

    Quoted from rubberducks:

    Also, as I understand it the regulator has not stepped in over the issues with extreme braking distances

    This was fixed with a software update in one week. One week! Anyway, it was an extreme edge case where if you made multiple repeated panic stops your braking distance would be reduced. It was fixed by a software update within days and is no longer an issue.


    Quoted from rubberducks:

    combined with Tesla admitting they were skipping industry standard brake tests at the factory

    The test was a duplicate because unlike any other automaker they test every car on a track:

    Please return to shitting all over one of America’s greatest success stories.

    #46 1 year ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    In Michigan. Currently how many service centers are there? Can you say flatbed to Cleveland? Or, maybe this guy has a couple of floor jacks and can perform recalls in a customer's driveway/garage/local vacant Saturn dealer parking lot? This pic was taken aboot a mile away from your home.
    [quoted image]

    Yeah, its pretty awesome - 80% of repairs can be done by their Mobile Service trucks so they come to you and fix your car. It’s hard to wrap your head around until you realize that most things that break on a car don’t exist on EV’s: exhaust, carburetor, pistons, o2 sensor, oil system, transmission...

    To answer your other question, they have none currently in Michigan, although one is planned.

    #47 1 year ago
    Quoted from Electrocute:

    I don't think Ford took any of that money.

    Ford has taken over 27 billion in government assistance:

    #49 1 year ago
    Quoted from AAAV8R:

    I look forward to your post admonishing Musk for lying about “funding secured”.

    I think it would have been better for him not to have made the tweet, I think I already said that in the other forum. Feel better?

    #57 1 year ago
    Quoted from AAAV8R:

    Not if you are going to call someone a “liar” for voicing an opinion.

    I think you’re deeply confused about the difference between an opinion and a statement.

    Shit on Tesla all you want. Say you hate the car, you hate the company, you hate Musk, whatever. That’s your right, and I support it.

    But if someone makes a statement here that isn’t factually correct, I’m going to call it out with facts.

    If someone has a history of repeatedly misrepresenting the truth, as rubberducks has repeatedly done, I’m calling it out for what it is: serial lying.

    We should all of us insist on this in civil, public discourse.

    #60 1 year ago
    Quoted from chooch:

    Not sure who is worse. Tesla fanboys or Apple fanboys. Maybe I'll start a poll.

    Why not both?

    #74 1 year ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    Will a Stern pinball machine fit in a Model X?

    If you had the fold down seats, I think it would, yes. Whether you’d want to haul a pinball machine in an expensive car like that...

    #78 1 year ago
    Quoted from benheck:

    I hope electric cars come down in price!
    Else poor people are going to be completely priced out of vehicle ownership, and those in the country without mass transit will be screwed.
    Used prices are still gonna skyrocket, "cheap" cars maybe but worthless without a new 5k battery pack to slap in.

    Battery prices continue to fall dramatically and predictably:

    Batteries in older Teslas are also lasting much longer than predicted.

    Battery price drop over time (resized).jpeg
    #81 1 year ago

    I saw two pictures of a busy street in NYC, one in 1903 with dozens of horse-drawn carriages and one car, and one in 1913 with one horse and dozens of cars. Change can happen fast.

    #90 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    No, but I got permanently ejected from that thread for stating my opinion, so obviously to me it is a fanboys only thread. And likewise they are not welcome here as stated in my original post..

    I didn't eject you. Maybe you did something to violate the rules of the board. And as far as I can see, this is a public forum. If the mods think I am being disruptive or off topic, they will let me know.

    #108 1 year ago
    Quoted from Phat_Jay:

    Quit quoting fuzzy math numbers, that data goes back to 1992 and includes tax rebates, incentives, and other promised monies. Unless you consider your tax refund govt assistance that is. Let’s not lump oranges in the apple cart here.

    Yeah, because NOBODY throws Tesla under the bus because of tax credits given to purchasers of their cars, do they?

    Or are you saying that tax rebates aren't valuable to Ford?

    And what difference does it make how far back the data goes? It shows that Ford has regularly received government subsidies in the billions.

    Oh and feel free to post some other analysis of Ford's own public financial disclosures that shows Ford hasn't taken any government money. You won't find any.

    #110 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Wow! You mean I could save money if I bought this $49,000 car?

    o-din, I'm so glad you asked.

    It depends on how much you drive and what you drive. Comparing any other $49,000 car to a Tesla Model 3 on fuel alone it would cost you less than half as much per mile to drive:

    Of course if you've got solar panels, as any sane person should in your part of the world, your cost approaches zero.

    But I think the real value is in time saved. I don't ever have to waste time driving back and forth to a gas station (and there are none on my way to work, so I'd have to detour), or wait in line for an emissions/smog check at the DMV. All that time frees me up to answer questions like this on Pinside! Everyone wins!

    #131 1 year ago
    Quoted from Electrocute:

    Yeah, Teslas just need $9k batteries from time to time. Sure the batteries will go down in price and the Teslas ten years from now will be a much better vehicle, making the 2018 model look like a dinosaur. So buy the $49K vehicle, it's a great investment.

    My car is going on six years old and has 90% of the range it had as new. So it'll be a while before I have to put any new battery pack in mine, and it's one of the oldest on the road.

    No car is an investment, but Tesla depreciates less than any other luxury car and sells faster too:

    “To put the depreciation in context, whereas a Tesla (Model S) will on average lose 28% of its value after being driven 50k miles, a Mercedes S-Class will lose 38%, a BMW 7-series will lose 40%, and an Audi A8 will lose 41%. As a result, Tesla owners end up with considerably more money in their pocket.”

    #132 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    What I know is electricity is generated in a large part in nuclear and coal power plants , and not sure I see much green about those.
    What I do see as green is driving as little as possible and getting the most use out of an older vehicle before considering buying a new one of any kind.
    [quoted image]

    It depends on where you live. Where I live more than half of our power comes from renewable sources, and 100% of mine does.

    It's much better for human health to have the pollution come from far away plants than from car exhaust.

    Lastly, very little of our power is nuclear, but more of it should be. Far better than coal.

    #133 1 year ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    One thing for sure, driving a well-maintained older car is a win for the environment over junking that car that still has good life in it and buying another new car made from tons of new raw materials.

    No, after around 70,000 miles it's better to have a new EV than to keep an old gas burner:

    life-cycle-ev-emissions (resized).jpg
    #134 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    How green are those batteries after they have expired?

    Very, very, very green.

    First, Tesla has a battery that's still got 80% charge at 500,000 miles, people:

    But at some point they won't be good for cars. At that point you can sell them because they're still useful for things like powering homes and large scale battery systems:

    #136 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    I saw one whizzing around the neighborhood about 8 years ago, and I must say I was impressed! But that was then...

    I drove a Tesla Roadster for about two weeks. It was very impractical. The trunk is about the size of a lunch box, no kidding. It takes a gymnastic move to get in and out of it. The buttons and menus were a nightmare to figure out. It felt fragile compared to my rock solid Model S. The interior was cramped, and the sight lines weren't good.

    On the good side, it was a free loaner from Tesla, so that kicked ass. It wasn't faster than my Model S, but it was more nimble. The design is nice. It was cool to drive a hand built car, a piece of history. And it had pretty good range.

    #138 1 year ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    No one thinks suspension components, HVAC, window regulators, door, hood and hatch latches, the computer hardware, wheel bearings, individual wheel motors, power regulating system, throttle, brake hydraulic components will require repairs on a Tesla, eh?
    Let me know in 10 years.

    I've never seen anyone make that claim. But the truth is that EVs have vastly fewer moving parts.

    Are you trying to say that maintenance costs will be the same on an EV over it's lifecycle than an ICE car?

    #150 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    They get the grease job at the dealer.

    Except they have no dealers.

    #151 1 year ago
    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    Wow, that article really is for dummies. No mention of water vapour at all. Love the shameless confirmation bias. Of the dummy, by the dummy, for the dummy.

    You want to back up your shade throwing with some facts? Otherwise you sound like an uninformed crank.

    Regarding water vapor, you should read this:

    Summary for the dummy:
    “So skeptics are right in saying that water vapor is the dominant greenhouse gas. What they don't mention is that the water vapor feedback loop actually makes temperature changes caused by CO2 even bigger.”

    Confirmation bias. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    #152 1 year ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    In a harsh environment such as Michigan or Pennsylvania, yes, over fifteen years or 300,000 miles they will be close. Then the disadvantage of lower range in extreme weather will become a factor for some motorists.

    No, as I posted according to the data it’s way under 100,000 miles. Either post your calculations, or I’m calling bullshit on that 300,000 mile figure that you seem to have pulled out of your ass.

    We weren’t talking about range. We were talking about whether or not it is more energy efficient to keep an old car or buy a new EV. Range has F all to do with that.

    #165 1 year ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    But they do have service centers where it appears one must go for repairs if you can't buy parts for the vehicle.
    Except in Michigan, Nebraska, Kansas, Wyoming, Alaska, Kentucky, North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana , South Carolina, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and maybe a few more states.

    True. In those states they send a tech to you. 80% of repairs can be handled at your home, which is pretty sweet.

    #166 1 year ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    I'm not talking aboot energy efficiency, I'm talking aboot repair & maintenance costs over the life of the vehicle. I keep my cars for 200,000-300,000 miles minimum. I look at the repair & maintenance costs. Then the overall cost/mile.
    The range was mentioned as it will matter to some if the vehicle is viable for their transportation needs.

    Oh, in that case you're still wrong.

    EVs are at least 35% cheaper to maintain:

    EVs are less than half the cost per mile to operate:

    #169 1 year ago
    Quoted from phil-lee:

    since there is no way to dispose of the stuff

    I'm not suggesting we use nuclear reactors with 1970's technology. That's like me using pollution data from 1960's cars with leaded gasoline to make the case for EVs.

    Newer reactors produce a fraction of the waste. But some geniuses thought it would be a better idea to keep using these crappy old nuclear power plants instead of building newer and better ones.

    It's also highly likely we will be able to use that waste in new reactors:

    Quoted from phil-lee:

    Soy Boys ride around spouting "GREEN" and pushing electric vehicles like social justice warriors with no inkling how the electricity is produced to power their expensive toys. If its nuclear generated they need to do some deep soul-searching, or just STFU.

    Or sociopathic old men driving their archaic pollution-belching gasoline shitboxes with no inkling of how much damage they are doing to future generations need to do some deep soul-searching and BASIC RESEARCH instead of just talking out their asses, or just STFU.

    #171 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    When in the 90s that siren went off for San Onofre at 4:00 AM during a huge downpour, I thought we were already done. It went on for quite a while. One good size earthquake and we can watch both those concrete domes roll into the sea.

    Yeah, those reactors should be replaced with newer, safer tech.

    My grandparents used to live in El Segundo and my Aunt in Carson, both near gasoline refineries. If an earthquake hits, the shit is going to hit the fan, big time.


    #172 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Why don't you just pop one of these bad boys on your Tesla, then you are good to go![quoted image]

    I'm ready!

    #175 1 year ago
    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    Confirmation bias, as far as I can tell, is starting with a dogmatic position, then searching for any information that backs up the position ("confirms" it), whilst ignoring any information that supports the contrary position.

    I /try/ to support my statements by linking to data or studies. It's not too surprising that other EV proponents link to and talk about studies and facts that confirm that EVs are better. If you want to call that confirmation bias, you'd be wrong.

    On the other hand, if I linked to some opinion piece without facts, or a writer that misrepresented the truth, or cherry picked facts to suit their opinion (like with water vapor), you'd be right to call that confirmation bias.

    If you want to change my mind, or anyone's mind, maybe you should link to some studies that prove your position, and open your mind to the possibility you might be wrong. Several times I've had my mind changed here and said as much.

    Water vapor isn't talked about because there's fuck all we can do about it, nor would we want to. We talk about CO2 because it's the CO2 from human industry that is driving climate change, and we can change this. Nothing can change the fact that water vapor amplifies greenhouse effects from CO2.

    #177 1 year ago
    Quoted from Richthofen:

    just because he’s rich doesn’t mean he’s some sort of genius.

    I agree that billionaire does not automatically equal genius. We have a glaring example of that, unfortunately.

    But you have it backwards with Musk. Musk is rich because he spearheaded a revolutionary payment system, brought the price of rockets down to where it could be extremely profitable, brought three extremely successful and popular cars to market. And he sold a hell of a lot of solar panels and large scale battery systems and a few other things that made billions upon billions of dollars too.

    Expecting a person like that to be 'ordinary' is just kind of odd. Of course he's going to be eccentric.

    I don't know what went down at Paypal or with the original founder of Tesla. There seem to be some conflicting stories. Were you there, or do you know people that were there?

    #179 1 year ago
    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    It states that water vapour in the atmosphere is short lived and that CO2 stays there for centuries etc.

    But this is true, isn't it? And it's also true that we can't do anything about water vapor and we can do something about CO2, right?

    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    It fails to make ANY mention of the uptake rate of water vapour INTO the atmosphere. Water vapour is in the atmosphere just as long as CO2 is, ie, it's there all the time, just in a steady state condition with new vapour entering to replace the exiting vapour. So, exactly HALF the true information is presented in order to CONFIRM the position whilst leaving out the half that is inconvenient.

    That's not the way I understand it, but feel free to link to a study or fact-based article on this uptake rate you're referring to.

    I'd say you aren't critically evaluating the factual data I've linked to.

    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    Go and do a bit of research about debating or language and you'll pretty quickly discover that this makes for very shaky ground from which to make a point.

    Asserting the position you are trying to debunk is simply good writing. It doesn't in any way detract from the argument. Feel free to link to studies or texts on debate that say otherwise. I'm by no means an expert on debate, but I studied debate at college and have spent decades debating and researching debate online.

    But really, please post a link to any study you'd like with facts and data. I'll read it.

    Here's more on water vapor:

    #180 1 year ago
    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    My only position was that an article displayed confirmation bias. I have presented no other position.

    Nor any evidence to support your position.

    #182 1 year ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    LOL. That's a good one. I don't think Einstein could change your mind.

    Well given he's been dead for quite a long time, I'd have to agree with you.

    #187 1 year ago
    Quoted from Richthofen:

    This popped up on twitter today; great thread, I guess a software engineer whose NDA has expired is sounding alarms about the car's firmware

    Do you understand what he’s saying? I do, and it looks like pretty standard engineer bitching to me. I don’t see anything unusual, nor do I see any ‘alarms’ about the car’s firmware.

    #191 1 year ago
    Quoted from Richthofen:

    That sounds like tech debt city and like many things I’ve seen my own companies from inside.

    This was my point. Only this.

    I wish they paid down their technical debt too, but I have never, ever once worked with an enterprise that did, and I have worked with a /lot/ of Fortune 500, startup companies, and governments.

    Let’s face it, it’s extraordinarily rare for an enterprise to stay on top of technical debt. Hell, one of my best friends is SSE over at an enterprise that /develops/ software for mission critical enterprise deployment and their core product is laden with technical debt.

    I’ve worked with the government and seen their critical data center operations that are used for things like emergency deployment (disaster response) — laden with years of technical debt.

    This is our corporate culture.

    Speaking of that, the person clearly had an axe to grind against Tesla, so I’ll take their words about their culture with a grain of salt. I’ve spoken personally with current Tesla employees and they are remarkably passionate, supportive of the mission, in it for the long haul, and love the company.

    None of the underlying tech struck me as horrid, and I was quite happy to see tech that came with the source code all the way down to the OS, so if a bug does come up, at least they can fix it if the vendor can’t.

    #194 1 year ago
    Quoted from phil-lee:

    Thermal runaway exhibited from poor battery control result in fires that are very hard to put out due to the metals used.

    Would you please link to reports of this? I'm not aware of more than three or four fires in Tesla vehicles out of the hundreds of thousands built and billions of miles driven.

    Quoted from phil-lee:

    Poor roof to pillar construction resulted in the famed "Rat hole"

    Out of curiosity, what would you have had them do, particularly to the cars already on the road? Can you cite a single example of a car company doing something better faced with a similar situation?

    I've experienced first hand Tesla's commitment to making things right, including adding titanium armor to the underside of my car for free (with a free Tesla loaner) after one car, just one car caught on fire. Please find me another car company that would do that.

    Quoted from phil-lee:

    indictment from the SEC

    I'm only aware of them looking into Tesla, not an indictment. Do you know something I don't?

    Let's keep in mind that two or three people (out of 10,000 employees), one of whom is being sued for stealing data, and all of whom were fired or resigned because they couldn't play well with others, are throwing out a bunch of accusations on Business Insider, a site that accepts content from anyone, that does not adhere to any fact-checking rules.

    #199 1 year ago
    Quoted from Electrocute:

    No recalls on mine. Took it to the dealership for one of my free lifetime oil changes in August.

    Give it time, it hasn’t even been out two years.

    I just got back from a 400+ mile round trip in my Model S. Total fuel cost $0.

    #203 1 year ago
    Quoted from Electrocute:

    Glad you got back safely.

    Thanks, that's cool of you to say. 63k+ miles so far and the car still drives like new.

    #209 1 year ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    I also just got back from a 24 hour 400+ mile road trip myself. Total fuel cost was also $0 for me as well.
    Glad we both made it back safely.

    I too am glad you're home safe and sound. The place wouldn't be the same without you.

    I'm intrigued. I know how I achieved $0 cost for my trip (free charging), how did yours work out to be $0?

    #216 1 year ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    There are a total of five vehicles that are personally owned in my household.

    Only 5? Slacker.

    #219 1 year ago
    Quoted from phil-lee:

    You are not kidding Nilroc. It might be a good idea to remove the ban on Halon fire extinguishers as well, nothing is more effective in putting out lithium, magnesium and electronics fires. Instead of side air bags perhaps an onboard Halon system would be more cost-effective, flooding the interior at the first sign of fire. Second thought, that would eliminate oxygen to the driver, no good. Nothing beats a Volvo for safety.

    So you're saying that driving a gas-powered car is SAFER????

    FYI in 2015 there were 174,000 gasoline vehicle fires and that 445 people died from those car fires in 2015. 445, with an additional 1,550 injuries due to fire.


    Unless you want to say the NFPA is a liberal blog and their data is falsified.

    #225 1 year ago

    Wow, did you see the pictures of the damage? The guy got hit by a car going 40 mph and there's astonishingly little damage.

    Back in the day I had a BMW 635csi. I loved that car. I was stopped at a light and the woman behind me saw the left turn signal go green in the lane next to us and /gunned it/ hard right into the back of my car. Totaled it from less than a car length and a dead stop. I couldn't believe how fragile that car was.

    #231 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Yes, you've probably both said enough.

    Says the man with over 41,000 posts.

    #232 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Now will you go back to your happy thread and stay there?
    [quoted image]


    #233 1 year ago
    Quoted from libtech:

    The biggest thing for me would be that the range is only 310mi and charging takes 5-6hrs at a charge point or 10-20hrs off 110v

    No, it takes 20-30 minutes to recharge at a supercharger.

    For the vast majority of people, plugging their car in overnight is enough to keep their car full.

    As for the cold, Norway is Tesla’s best selling country. I hear it gets kind of cold there.

    #242 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    I'm guessing they would not fare much better in a place like Texas where you might see a sign that says "last gas station for 500 miles".

    Wrong again.

    Screenshot_20180828_195217 (resized).png
    #245 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    I am yet to see a sign on any roadway that says Tesla charging station in 40 miles or 100 miles for that matter.

    Signs? Where we're going we don't need signs.

    Quoted from o-din:

    But that's pretty cool that your car screen will tell you where they are, if that screen doesn't malfunction like has been reported in many cases.

    It's just an LCD monitor, man. Sometimes they fail. Like all LCD monitors, the vast overwhelming majority of them don't. There's no magical pixie dust.

    If for some reason your screen failed (mine has two), you hold down a button and say "navigate to the nearest supercharger" and the car will tell you where to turn.

    If that also failed I guess you'd have to, you know, use your memory as to where the supercharger was located. Terrifying concept for some, I agree. Not a huge deal for grownups.

    Quoted from o-din:

    And just like a Tesla, I have no desire to carry or pay for a mobile phone

    So you're okay with using a large computer that connects to the Internet that you pay for, but you don't want to use a smaller computer that connects to the Internet that you pay for. Got it.

    Quoted from o-din:

    And you'd do better off praising this thing in the other thread, but I see there are others raining on your parade there.

    Oh no, you're far too entertaining to stop. I live for this.

    Quoted from o-din:

    Keep bumping this one if you like as each time you do, someone else votes in the poll and I can't wait to see the results.

    Well since you asked nicely, I will.

    Quoted from o-din:

    Wrong again? I don't think so. I haven't been wrong yet


    “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
    ― Issac Asimov

    #247 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Who said anything about paying for internet?

    Quoted from o-din:

    And at home where I am now, I have a ten year old Mac Mini which isn't very big at all. Internet is $25 a month

    One of these things is not like the other.

    Quoted from o-din:

    Or large computer for that matter?

    Your mac mini. Is it larger than a smartphone?

    Quoted from o-din:

    When I am at work, intent is free for me.

    Quoted from o-din:

    because it's really just a waste of time sitting here debating this kind of shit with people like you when I could do it while at work for free and get paid for it if I was so inclined.

    Get paid for posting on Pinside? How does your employer feel about that?

    Quoted from o-din:

    which is much cheaper than the $100 or so a month to run a smart phone

    You can pay as little as $30/month.

    Quoted from o-din:

    I've had maybe 100s of cars before

    That is a hell of a lot of cars. Here I thought you had a 20 year old Toyota Tacoma that you'd owned for a long time. Are you a car dealer or something?

    Quoted from o-din:

    And tell me again how I am ignorant for not wanting to jump on the bandwagon and use my hard earned money to buy something I have absolutely no desire to own or use for just because somebody else is trying to force their opinion down my throat.

    You misunderstand. I couldn't care less if you buy one or not, or what your opinion is.

    I'm correcting misinformation and pointing out logical fallacies.

    Quoted from o-din:

    Ignorance, yes it must be pure ignorance on my part.

    It takes guts to admit when you're wrong. It's painful. It takes work to fairly consider other viewpoints and challenge your own beliefs.

    #254 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Anything to keep me showing up.

    I find it pretty hard to believe that your employer would gladly pay you to surf Pinside and not do your job.

    Quoted from o-din:

    Was an auto tech for 30 years. Buying, fixing, and selling cars was part of it.
    Of course with those cars I was able to easily source parts.

    How do you feel about all the computerization of cars? My grandpa was a master mechanic and hated computers going into cars because he couldn't fix them.

    Quoted from o-din:

    I guess I'm doing the same thing with all your ASSumptions.

    You're not very good at it. There are plenty of reasons why an EV might not be the best choice for someone.

    The problem is, your responses are textbook 'don't make these mistakes when trying to debate.'

    The biggest thing you do is to use personal attacks like you just did there calling me an ASS, which also violates rule #1 on the board here.

    Do you think you can stop that and just be civil?

    #258 1 year ago
    Quoted from fosaisu:

    To be fair, you did just call him an ignoramus. Or is that permissible under Robert's Rules of Order so long as you let Isaac Asimov deliver the insult for you?

    Willfully ignorant, to be specific. Honestly it wasn't meant as an insult, more as a friendly wake up call.

    I don't think we should let people get away with being willfully ignorant. Opinions, sure, believe what you want. But if a person is presented with facts that refute a claim, and they choose to ignore that and don't present facts to back up their assertion, that's willfully being ignorant. It needs to be called out. It's time to start drawing a line, people.

    Or is that kind of behavior okay now?

    #266 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    [quoted image]
    Opinions not welcome. Or they might be misconstrued as being stated as fact.

    It really shouldn't be hard to distinguish opinion from fact, but apparently many people cannot.


    Opinion: I love my Tesla Model S
    Fact: The Tesla Model S is the best selling luxury car in the USA

    #267 1 year ago
    Quoted from fosaisu:

    If you want to discuss the facts -- presumably you meant the facts about Tesla Model 3, not the facts about o-din -- then why are you derailing the conversation with complaints about his debate technique? If he's hiding behind willful ignorance as you say, that should be plain enough to the neutral reader without condescending comments from you and Isaac Asimov.
    [EDIT: Looking back, you're also off in the weeds about his cell phone plan and his boss's liberal internet usage policies -- what does any of that have to do with the Tesla Model 3?]

    Hello there, 'stay on topic policeman.' I admit to the error of my ways and hereby confess to derailing the topic on multiple occasions.

    #270 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    No it shouldn't. When you pull out a quote of mine where I started the statement with the words "I'm guessing" as that I am stating fact. And then go calling me ignorant for doing so.

    When anyone says "I'm guessing" and is wrong about their guess, I'm gonna point it out o-din. Get used to it. Saying "I guess" isn't an opinion. It's a guess, which can be right or wrong.

    Not ignorant -- willfully ignorant. We're all ignorant about a great many things. A person is being willfully ignorant if they read a fact and keep saying "that isn't true." That's also a fact, not an insult.

    If you think I'm posting opinions instead of facts, point them out and I'll either back it up with more data or concede the point.

    Quoted from o-din:

    And then go make you own assumptions about my situation at work that you know nothing about.
    I suppose in the world you live in, you bend and distort everything to your liking to somehow prove you are more intelligent and superior to those that don't agree with you.

    If you go back and read, I actually asked questions about your employer which you answered. I'm still surprised your boss is cool with you screwing off at work on Pinside, but okay, I accept your answer.

    Again with the personal attacks. Stop it.

    #277 1 year ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    I don't think what you said above is a true fact.
    ACT, PSR, Ward's and even the free site Statista show the BMW 5, 4 and 3 series, Lexus ES and IS, Mercedes C as well as Infiniti Q50 all outselling the Tesla Model S in the United States this year. Some by a factor of 2 to 1.
    All are classified as "luxury cars".

    Sorry, you're right. I mean the Model 3.

    #279 1 year ago
    Quoted from Procrastinator:

    By the end of this month, which is 2 days from now, Tesla will be top 5 in sales in the US? Is that the claim you’re making? I’ll even give you until the end of the year, and there is no way Tesla is cracking the top 5. There is no way, no matter how much I like Tesla, that they are beating out either GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda or Toyota. If you have some figures that shed light on your statement I would be curious to see them, because everything I’ve seen doesn’t say they are anywhere close to the top 5.

    Well the Model is already in #7 position in July:

    "Ford and Chevrolet don’t have a single passenger model that can beat the Model 3 in volume."

    Every month this year is expected to have more deliveries than the last.

    #280 1 year ago
    Quoted from robertmee:

    Clear up some confusion. How can you sell 16,000 vehicles in July, but only produce 5000 in July? I'd like to see how Tesla is doing on delivered vehicles vs their rivals. Considering that those 16,000 sales are really 1,000 pre-order deposits, I don't think that's a fair comparison.

    Where did you get the July 5,000 number? They produced 5,000 in the last week of June alone (and delivered almost all of them in July). Here's the most vetted source I know - this is delivered vehicles, not produced vehicles:

    Tesla only counts delivered cars in their finance reporting, not produced cars as far as I know. So they will often have more cars produced than delivered.

    #281 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    16 hours later and since the so called experts on this vehicle obviously had more important things to discuss, I did a little research of my own. Now I'm not going to say "I'm guessing" and go thru that again, but all roads and many statements on many websites seem to point to this.

    Didn't the very next post answer the gentleman's question?

    AAA has chargers on their trucks in some markets:

    But if you live outside one of those areas and run completely out of power, you'll have to be towed. There's no reason why anyone sane would do that, given there are chargers everywhere, and the cars tell you if you can make it there AND BACK when you use the in-car navigation, and warn you if you try to navigate somewhere that will run you out of juice.

    If you start to run low your Tesla will also tell you what speed you need to drive to reach a charger as well.

    Also, if you are running low on power you can just slow down. A 270 mile range battery can be extended to 400 miles at 25 miles an hour. That's slow as hell, but it's faster than walking or a tow truck.

    It's just not that big of a deal.

    #284 1 year ago
    Quoted from AAAV8R:

    Model 3 sales are strong NOW......with the pre-orders.
    What happens to sales once all of the pre-orders are fulfilled?
    Also, how many of those pre-orders were banking on getting a Model 3 for $27,500? And what happens when they find out they won't be able to get it for that?

    Nobody knows what will happen in the future.

    However, as of July, which is the most recently I have seen anyone ask, all of their cars were getting large numbers of net orders. 5,000 net new orders in one week for the Model 3 alone:

    As to the tax credits, it's highly unlikely anyone with a pre-order is //still// somehow unaware that they will have to wait until 2019 for their 35k Model 3, and that come 2019 the tax credits will begin to slowly wind down. That's really old news. It seems rather likely those cancellations are already reflected in the 400,000+ orders they've recently stated they have for the Model 3.

    #286 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    No. I'm not seeing it unless you are talking about some embedded video that I didn't watch. He asked a simple question, and that deserved a simple answer.
    Not many are going to watch any propaganda or other vids in this thread posted by those that have done their best to ruin the spirit of this thread and dance thru it like it's their own personal playground.

    Often times there are no simple answers. Try to give me the simple answer for how to clean a playfield. Or rebuild a pop bumper.

    Instead, I gave a thorough answer correct to the best of my knowledge in the spirit of this forum.

    Still you persist in more personal attacks and and willful ignorance.

    #291 1 year ago
    Quoted from fosaisu:

    Top o' the morning, 'Captain Supercilious.'

    Someday people will understand my sense of humor. Until then, I prefer Admiral Arrogant.

    #292 1 year ago
    Quoted from Procrastinator:

    Just combing through the article you posted, are those actual numbers?

    Yes, as I understand it those are actual numbers. They’re already outproducing Jaguar and Porsche on volume.

    I also agree that Musk should have a twelve hour hold on all his tweets and some oversight there. But then again, probably I should too.

    #299 1 year ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    You should stick to being a pushy car salesman, and let someone else tell the jokes.

    Please stop the personal attacks.

    #301 1 year ago
    Quoted from ronaldvg:

    Just wait until EVs really get sold a lot and you poor guys are in a line of 5 or 6 cars waiting for your "fast" charger, 30 minutes a piece.

    Maybe but they have scaled the chargers up really well over time. A lot of the locations started with four and have sixteen now.

    Quoted from ronaldvg:

    Also the "green" aspect does not apply to a Tesla.

    Yes it does. The carbon break even versus an older car is substantially less than 100,000 miles, then it’s a net gain. It’s a net gain immediately versus a new car. Check back a few posts for the source.

    Quoted from ronaldvg:

    Why in the hell would they make cars that go so fast from 0-60 ?

    Because it’s insanely fun.

    Quoted from ronaldvg:

    That is just so much waisted energy.

    I think you mean wasted. Waisted energy would be what you get from hula hooping.

    Quoted from ronaldvg:

    What Tesla makes is a fun and fast car that is hiding the fact that you will become the slave of it, calculating every long drive and putting in a connector every time you park it.

    You don’t have to charge it every time you park it, nor do you have to calculate long drives. The car does it for you. Just like it unlocks itself when you walk up to it.

    I’d much rather spend two seconds plugging in my car in my garage every night than sitting in line and breathing gasoline fumes at a gas station.

    Quoted from ronaldvg:

    Here in Europe we do not have that many chargers yet and even a charger every 150 miles in USA does seem far apart.

    No, there is excellent supercharger coverage in Europe. Their network has great coverage there.

    #304 1 year ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    Dying in a lithium fire from a head-on collision is not cool, nor green.

    Dying in a gasoline fire is much better?

    #306 1 year ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    Replacing a car's gauge cluster and physical controls in favor an over-complicated Ipad that takes your eyes completely off the road might be the dumbest idea I've ever seen.

    Any form of distracted driving is bad - that includes removing your hand from the wheel to make an adjustment even without looking. It’s dangerous and should not be done at any time while the car is moving.

    Much of the car’s functions can be controlled on the wheel. Much safer.

    I sat in a Model 3 for the first time last week and was really impressed at how easy everything was. I thought it would be complicated and annoying but it was way easier to use than my Model S. They did a great job on it.

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