Allyn, WA
For those that don't follow Doug Demuro, he did a great review on the tesla X, basically debunking all the negativity:
Or you could watch these idiots test all the door sensors with carrots and hot dogs:
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Quoted from pezpunk:Teslas are all aluminum - they don't rust.
aluminum can pit.. not nearly as bad as rust, but still oxidation. Also winters aren't great for batteries, I'd be curious the difference in battery life between a california tesla and a mid-west one.
2 weeks later
I watched the movie "the founder" which is about ray kroc
*spoiler warning*
He was making 1.5% off of 15 cent hamburgers, and barely breaking even. It wasn't until a consultant told him he shouldn't be in the burger business, but rather the real estate business. By buying up land, and then leasing that land to owners, it gave him a constant revenue stream (and control).
By Elon creating an infrastructure of charging stations, he controls the "electric charging station" model. You drive a chevy bolt, or a Nissan leaf.. I bet you're paying to charge up your vehicle at those stations, and also willing to bet Tesla corp gets a cut of all electricity sold. Think about how many gas stations there are in america. Now imagine if he starts to sell solar tiles to gas stations at cost. He sells more tiles, lowering his cost by increasing volume. He takes a bigger cut on the electricity now that the station is partially self supporting.
Elon really is smart by strategizing everything to work together to boost volumes. Make an electric car, then make a factory that can build cheaper batteries (slightly larger version of the 18650 to maximum cost efficiency), then make household battery backup systems, then make solar tiles. He's working on making electric semi trucks ny 2018 (which will be lower cost because of lower maintenance, cheaper refueling), and someday self driving (no more paying drivers, lower risk means lower insurance premiums).
http://www.theverge.com/2017/4/13/15292102/tesla-elon-musk-semi-tractor-trailer-truck-september
2 months later
Just saw this today:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/business/energy-environment/volvo-hybrid-electric-car.html
Volvo will no longer produce any new models that use conventional gas engine cars as of 2019 (hybrid and full electric only). By 2025, they hope to be making one million electric cars.
From every industry that has to do with gasoline engines (including my own company), they are all predicting that 2025 is the tipping point where electric surpasses gas products. That's not to say gasoline suddenly goes away, it just means there will be more electric than gas. I don't know what their metric is (oil prices spiking again, battery technology finally catching up, a combination of many things), but they all point to that magical year (which is only 8 years away). So for all those non-believers in this thread arguing against electric cars, just wait a little bit and see how drastically things change.
Quoted from pezpunk:transporting electrons around the country is fundamentally a hell of a lot easier, logistically, than transporting gasoline, and installing an electron pump is similarly way easier than installing a gas pump
Also electricity is renewable, gasoline is limited by how much oil is left under the crust. We're just so used to having such a large supply we never think about it. Also since Arab countries currently supply roughly half our oil, they can greatly effect prices. Soon as you are no longer dependent on a supplier (See dutch pinball at the mercy of the contract manufacturer), you no longer have to put up with fluctuations in fuel.
3 weeks later
1 month later
I stumbled on this guy's channel over the weekend.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA
He's taken either wrecked or flooded tesla's (salvage cars), and for the most part sold off parts (but keeps some of them). So far he's been able to take spare parts to build one complete Tesla for about $6500 (not including the tons of labor he put into salvaging parts, selling them, putting parts together). This isn't to save money, to him this is a hobby (not unlike gearheads that build up classic cars).
In one of the latest videos, he parks at a target to see if his car will be allowed to supercharge. Turns out Tesla did not send a software update to only allow him level 2 charging, however he would have to go to pay tesla to get the app to talk to his car now that it's been re-certified by the DMV. He also goes into about how Tesla will not sell you spare parts, most likely so that unlicensed people like him don't muck something up and cause a crash or a fire, and then turn around and sue them. It's probably the reason why the market for used parts is booming.
Quoted from pezpunk:It makes more financial sense to make one battery and adapt it for multiple cost tiers than to manufacture a bunch of different physical batteries, which only multiply the complexity and logistics of supply and assembly and inventory and so on.
This /\
I used to worked for a battery charger company. We made 4 tiers of a particular charger. A 15amp, 12A, 6A, 3A. All of them had the exact same control board, same power supply. The only difference was a software change, and a slightly bigger fan in the top 2. It made no financial sense to spin 4 separate boards when we could just build the highest one, and back it down for the lower models. The lower tiered models typically lasted forever (because they ran cool), so they didn't get warrantied. The higher ones ran hot, and if they were used in a dusty environment, typically the fans would fail quicker and the electronics would then fail too. So in reality, the higher cost was helping to pay for warranty claims.
2 weeks later
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Quoted from goatdan:Well, if you weren't watching the semi reveal, the future of goods transportation just changed.
No kidding.. wish I would have bought a few shares, it's going to pop tomorrow.
Center driver seat, all the aftermarket accessories every trucker has to buy already included
0-60 in 5 seconds (no load)
0-60 with maximum 80,000lb load = 20 seconds
Able to go 65mph on 5% grade hill (get the goods there faster)
500 mile range
400 mile recharge in 30 minutes
more aerodynamic than a bugatti veyron
Very few parts to fail, especially brakes
There ARE 4-5 other companies working on electric trucks, it's all going to come down to first to market. Reducing transportation costs is going to be a huge business.
Quoted from Brijam:That's a great innovation. I hope his team can get it to scale and keep it cost-competitive.
Some are speculating that the "solid state battery" that toyota is getting ready to release to production is similar to that (it's possible in order for tesla to double capacity in the roadster they plan on something also similar). Whatever the case, this is bound to trickle down.. It sure seems like this way to build a battery has the potential to be easier to assemble than the coil sandwich that are cells.
Sidenote to goatdan : Since you're a happy nissan leaf owner I did some poking around. There was a 2011 with 37k miles and 71 mile range left for $5500 on chicago craigslist for a while (looks like it might have sold now). New battery packs are $5500 after trade-in, plus a $250 adapter for the new version (and installation). I'm not ready to buy now, it's nice to see a viable option for someone that wants to buy electric on a budget.
Quoted from rai:I saw that, there’s a video that discussed auto driving Uber let your car make money for you.
That's the concept behind waymo. self driving cabs that pick you up, they are doing practice runs in arizona because the roads are wide and marked clearly
https://gizmodo.com/waymo-announces-fully-self-driving-cars-are-here-taxi-1820221010
2 weeks later
Quoted from VolunteerPin:Try living in TN. I had to pay an extra $100 to register my car just because it is electric
Wait till you see the annual fees they tack on in california because electric car owners aren't paying into the gas tax to fix roads
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/03/states-yank-electric-car-aid-add-new-fees-to-pay-for-infrastructure.html
Quoted from Brijam:electric car owners are still not paying our fair share for maintaining the roads. What's your problem? How else is the infrastructure going to be paid for?
There are better ways of making everyone pay their fair share to maintain roads. We've collected gas taxes because that was the most fair way to do it at the time. Now we have GPS in every phone, and insurance ODB boxes that can collect insurance based on miles driven, or road taxes for that matter. Oh but the conspiracy theorists wouldn't want anything tracking them, same way they said they'd never buy into automatic toll collecting system because they don't want a record of where they've been, or letting time stamps show they were speeding. Your phone is collecting data all the time. Every search you make is recorded somewhere, if you text while driving any insurance company can subpoena that info to prove you were at fault. And if you have an amazon echo, it's ALWAYS listening because that's how it works. It's always listening for a command.
Also gas taxes are only a small fraction that actually go towards paying for roads, most of it is collected from property taxes:
https://frontiergroup.org/reports/fg/who-pays-roads
If that weren't the case, we'd also have bicycle taxes (yes, bicycles also use roads)
Quoted from Brijam:These aren't very realistic.
Here's another example why gas taxes don't work. let's say I'm a landscaper. I fill my truck up with gas because that truck is using the road. Now I have to fill up my lawnmower, my hedgeclipper, edger, weed wacker... All those products use gas, yet they aren't affecting the roads but I'm paying taxes on the gas to run them. If battery technology suddenly catches up and I can realistically power all those things with electric, are the roads going to once again suffer because of a gap in taxes paid?
Quoted from goatdan:I honestly expect that by then, new models will be almost exclusively fully electric, and we'll be talking about what to do with all the gas stations, parts stores and so on that aren't needed in the same numbers as today.
I think we will look at them the same way we look at empty public phone bezels at gas stations that still haven't been removed. We remember a time when people actually had to find a gas station to return a phone call on their pager. Now EVERYONE has a cellphone.
Quoted from pezpunk:CORD TILL DEATH!" plus, there are probably 1000 internal combustion engine vehicles for every pay phone that once existed
No, but my dad kept his pager as LONG as he could.. he REFUSED to up pay for a cellphone, just like he refused to pay extra for digital dialing on his land line because he knew their cost was less for digital versus analog (yes, even if you had a button dial phone, unless you paid for it, you'd hear the clicks like on an analog phone as it dialed) . Then he was forced to at least switch over to a basic phone with texting.
Quoted from pezpunk:i just think ICE is going to hang on in certain niche applications for a long time
I don't think it will disappear quick, anything in the auto industry seems to take a decade to really penetrate the market (just look how long it took for manufacturers to realize it was cheaper to install power windows than manual cranks). Wasn't until honda did financial analysis to switch over to it.
I believe there will still be alcohol dragsters, I believe there will still be people with gasoline classic cars that keep racing even though stock teslas can whip them all day long (perhaps auto racing will need a separate class for electric). I don't think everyone will switch to electric semis right away (only corporations that know they can start saving money right away). There will still be a bunch of lower income families that won't be able to switch over right away, but eventually the used market will trickle down (almost is with cheap first generation leafs). For sure canadian and alaska semi drivers will refuse to switch simply because they get stuck in the middle of nowhere a lot, and being able to run heat sometimes for a day is important (also not sure how well batteries would do in negative 70 degrees).
Speaking of semi's, this youtuber does some interesting calculations on fuel cost savings, maintenance savings (no more engine repair, no more brakepads, etc), but then at 9:30 he talks about something I didn't realize which is that supposedly from day one they have for a convoy option where there's a driver controlling the lead semi, and he can have 2 more unmanned semi trucks behind him that aren't completely driving themselves, they are simply following the leader. That reduces the labor cost to 1/3:
Quoted from goatdan:I just test drove a Bolt for the heck of it.
It feels smaller than the Leaf and oddly to me a lot louder. It wasn't bad, but with the exception of the range, it didn't seem much different than our Leaf. It didn't help that roads are slick and cold, so I could tell it had more power, but mostly just used it to spin the tires...
But wow, the dealership network is going to be a big problem for anyone other than Tesla to overcome. I pretended to not know anything about it, and they couldn't tell me much at all. No idea how fast it charges, where to charge it, if the charger was a standard or not, benefits of it over a regular car, it it needed any maintenance or not... It was... Enlightening in a fascinating way.
I could go on with a bunch of points where they just didn't know things that you should know about a product that you're selling, but... Yeesh.
It shows my why Tesla has the valuation they do. The dealer network is going to be a tough thing to overcome.
"so do i just put d-size batteries in somewheres when it dies or whut? how many batteries does it take anyways? i still got my radio shack battery of the month club, so i got that goin for me"
Quoted from Ns2973:Without dealers, anyone without a 700 credit score will have a much harder time buying vehicles and costs for manufacturers will skyrocket in addition
?? Dealers aren't loaning out the money, they use credit companies. I suppose because of volume sometimes dealer relationships can increase chances of getting a loan if your credit sucks. However, this is what the great auto dealers do to poor low credit buyers:
Quoted from Ns2973:It's a huge issue for tesla, and ev doesn't reduce failures, it increases it. Failure rate for ice is super low compared to the tech required for electric.
Based on what? and what constitutes as failure? Is an electric car more complicated? Perhaps, but only because of the sensors and features it's adding. If you're just looking at the car driving, I don't see how applying PWM electricity to a brushless motor has higher failure rate than a gas engine that has to time sparked explosions thousands of times per minute, at a variable rate... all the while it's depositing carbon onto the cylinder walls and gunking itself up.
Quoted from Ns2973:If tesla just used dealers instead of trying to fight an unwinnable fight we would be so much further ahead.
I don't think this was by choice. He had to go at it alone because dealers selling electric cars undercuts their own business:
https://insideevs.com/tesla-direct-sales-vs-franchised-dealership-battle-continues
I work for a company that builds landscaping equipment. We have some electric versions of our gas products, but it's nearly a loss right now because it's such low volume and it's mostly sold to home owners. Professional landscapers can't possibly use them because they can't invest in a bank of batteries to keep working all day. However, we are building product now so that when the next amazing power source comes along, we have product already designed and established.
Quoted from Brijam:Think of the last thing you had done on your ICE car, chances are an EV doesn't have that part. With an EV there's no oil changes or filters, no spark plugs, no transmission, no drive shaft, no exhaust systems or catalytic converters, no fuel flow sensor, no turbo, no oxygen sensors, no radiators, no cylinders or gaskets, not even fluids besides brake fluid and windshield washer fluid. They're even reducing the wiring harnesses, at least at Tesla.
The ONLY argument you could have for ICE is that everything is "serviceable" or "fixable", whereas with electric you probably wouldn't be replacing your own dead cells in a battery pack (though maybe someday that'll be the case), nor would you be likely to work on your own electric motor (but I don't know what would go bad other than bearings). But with that said, I would MUCH rather have all the things that COULD go wrong in an ICE vehicle gone. I've only driven one car to it's death (192k miles on a corolla), never any transmission issues but it was burning oil because of misfires, and after spending $400 each at two different repair shops (both who said the fix may not solve it) it became apparent I was going to start dumping more money into it than it's worth. Nobody is going to dump $3-4k for a new engine into a corolla that's worth less than $2k either.
Even though the leaf is only 6 years old, and tesla only a few years before that, it'll be interesting to see how the secondary market pans out (and how many miles some of these vehicles can rack up and still hold value). If it just comes down to plopping in a new battery after so many charge cycles, so long as the car keeps going there's always going to be someone willing to buy it and keep driving it.
1 week later
I keep reading news articles talking about how Tesla is going to run out of money by summer.. something about 900 million in operating costs, and a 1.8 billion dollar loan due from bonds he sold. UBS is making these claims, but how can they possibly know the financials from Tesla, the gigafactory, and spaceX accurately? Even in a worse case scenario and Tesla had to file bankruptcy, they would either wipe part of that debt, or someone could happily swoop up the company.. Not like the company would disappear.
1 week later
Quoted from goatdan:I saw a fascinating recent look at Amazon, circa 2001. There were some people that were bullish and saying this is the future. Some company, I think it was Sears, was laughing at the fact that they would ever compete with them, because it was an online business and they could just step in and crush them whenever they felt the moment was right. Pundits were saying that Amazon needed to sell every book that every bookstore in America sold and yet they would STILL be losing money, and that throwing any money at them as an investment was stupid. And they kept talking about how Amazon was one of the most shorted stocks
I believe this is the video you mean (I saw it recently too), it's circa 1999. I love bezos' modesty, driving a basic honda and using a door for a desk because he doesn't spend more than he needs.
Quoted from Brijam:It'd be tough for me to buy a Porsche, though. My sister owned two of them - brand new - and she got soaked every time something went wrong. Every. Time. Thousands every time. She'll never have another.
it's funny how as a kid you dream of owning an exotic car, then you read how horribly unreliable most of them are (outside of all of the very expensive maintenance). 8 year old boxters are on craigslist of every city for $6k because nobody wants to spend the $3k to replace the engine bearings that fail on at least half of them. Same can be said for bmw's. Had a friend that decided to take a chance on a $3k used bmw, 6 months later the engine block cracked in half.
Quoted from rai:One of the side effects of an ICE engine is free heat, also in super cold my little four cylinder car is extra peppy thanks to the denser air intake.
You get a cold air intake! you get a cold air intake! EVERYONE GETS A COLD AIR INTAKE! +7hp
I do wonder how solid state batteries are going to play out. Tesla has made the cheapest and most compact lithium-ion battery they could possibly make, but solid state (if manufactured for a reasonable cost which is a challenge) is far denser, and can charge to full capacity in about a minute. The following car companies have plans for solid state batteries:
BMW (they are partnering with a battery company)
Fisker (they developed their own, claiming production in 2023)
Honda (just researching, date unknown)
Hyundai (developing their own, date unknown)
NGK (spark plug company developing a ceramic SSB)
Nissan (just researching, date unknown)
Toyota (started in 2014, partnered with panasonic in 2017)
Samsung just released a solid state battery, so far they aren't saying which car company they are partnering up with
https://electrek.co/2018/01/15/samsung-sdi-new-batteries-electric-car-range-charging-capacity
So if panasonic is already developing a solid state battery, why would they partner with toyota? Did Tesla break ties since they are making their own lithium cells now?
2 weeks later
I went to the final shuttle launch of Atlantis. Waiting for the countdown timer on the causeway here:
shuttle (resized).jpg
Much like seeing your first dragster show, there is no sound/feeling like a rocket launch. There's a good 20-30 second sound delay, and then the sound starts rolling towards you like a wave. It's like a crackle and a rumble at the same time.
I need to keep an eye when the first manned flight is going to happen with the dragon. supposedly 2 private people put down deposits for a flight to the moon and back at 70 million a pop.
1 week later
Quoted from goatdan:I think if / when they make everything voice controlled, people won't care
4 years ago I'd say you're crazy "Tesla, change the temperature to 68 degrees"... Changing speed to.. 68mph".
However if Amazon can make a $30 device that can hear me across the room clearly with commands, I could totally see Tesla making most functions of a car voice controlled. Adjusting the steering wheel and seat are more fine detailed adjustments, but most people don't adjust those things WHILE they're driving now.
Quoted from goatdan:Tesla's largest competitive advantage may be its willingness to completely throw out the rulebook that these established automakers feel they need to follow and forge their own path. They are creating an entire ecosystem for their vehicles to live within, where the others are saying that their ideas won't work and making excuses why they can't.
i liken this to asian countries like vietnam that had no internet or good phone lines. when they built the infrastructure from scratch, they went for speed because they could. meanwhile in the US internet providers tried to push high speed through the old twisted copper for decades.. we are only in the last 3- 5 years starting to see real bandwidth at the consumer level.
2 weeks later
Quoted from Eryeal:It's a good thing none of the other major car manufacturers have recalls of vehicles or parts after they've been sold ... oh wait.
http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/14/news/companies/ford-steering-wheel-recall/index.html
Saw that today.. in fact the gasbuddy app alerted me, then I looked it up "MAJOR RECALL, 2 DEATHS ALREADY". Kind of a serious defect.
Quoted from rubberducks:Porsche, and the Jaguar of today are at the polar opposite end of that spectrum
I've never known Jaguars to be quality. Porsche maybe, jaguars are status-mobiles right up up there with land rovers.
Quoted from Eryeal:along with their parent Volkswagen, decided that they would get by emissions testing by cheating, and risk their entire company, costing them billions?
Exactly.. I used to love porsche as a kid (not knowing back then about umbrella companies, or what their history was). That emissions thing was not only horribly deceitful, but even knowing they were cheating they put monkeys in a box with the exhaust hooked up to prove the point (even though there are computers that can accurately measure it). I suppose germany doesn't fall too far from the hitler tree
In what way?
Internet: You also have comcast which may be a bigger player than AT&T seeing how they have merged with GE who owns NBC and universal. There are a gazillion other small ISP's (including wireless)
Cellular: You have verizon, sprint, t-mobile, dozens of pay-as-you phones (many of which piggyback on other carriers, but charge half the cost)
TV: I have uverse only because I refuse to sign up with comcast. I'm still considering cutting the cord with so many choices these days (youtube TV, hulu, sling, playstation vue)
Quoted from MrBally:Those companies that charge "half the cost" are getting exactly what they're worth. If AT&T's service is not worth what they charge, they would not be selling their services.
Not true. I pay $55/month for straight talk unlimited, which piggy backs on at&t/verizon/t-mobile. I've had better coverage than when I was on AT&T where I was paying $190 for 2 phones with the same service (and I have no contract). AT&T has customers because those customers don't realize they can pay less, or afraid to lose that "grandfathered unlimited data plan" that means nothing today.
Quoted from MrBally:Do you really think that Ford, Toyota, GM(The current Company), Honda, FCA, Volkswagen group, and Hyundai are just gonna roll over and play dead. They don't need to have a PR man making bi-weekly claims of every move they are making regarding their own tactics & strategies.
No, it's hard to move giants. Toyota and honda are every conservative companies that focus on reliability, not necessarily on innovation, and will likely continue to be #2 and #3. Hyundai pushes the envelope, but they are still suffering from major quality issues (see exploding sunroofs and transmission failures). GM will keep churning out sleepy run of the mill cars so long as people keep settling ($40k pickup trucks still using key ignitions instead of push button). Don't be so sure Volkswagen makes it. 3 years ago they had a value of 67 billion, they lost half of that in lawsuits and fines (and probably more in customer trust). Unless they truly come up with something innovative they may not survive.
Quoted from pinster68:Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-selfdriving-uber/self-driving-uber-car-kills-arizona-woman-crossing-street-idUSKBN1GV296
Yes, and she crossed outside of the crosswalk. Go on liveleak and see how many pedestrians get nailed by cars with drivers paying attention because of the pedestrians fault.. videos like this one:
If nothing else, self-driving cars are good for insurance companies. LOTS of cameras and Lidar scanners collecting data.
arizona driver was looking at his phone during crash.. However if you look at the video there's NO way any human would have avoided that accident. she pops out of nowhere because she has no light on her bike or any reflective clothing. It's amazing how stupid people are.
https://jalopnik.com/video-shows-driver-in-fatal-autonomous-uber-crash-was-l-1823970417
Quoted from Fytr:There is no way the car should have hit that pedestrian. The human driver was a useless waste of space not even looking at the road.
People look at their phones while driving without an auto-pilot. What do you think is going to happen when they think they can rely on the car to avoid accidents?
Quoted from Fytr:But the biggest issue is that the automated driving system completely failed to spot the person or the bike. It's LIDAR based and doesn't depend on the available light
True.. not sure how it didn't detect it. Maybe it doesn't depend on the LIDAR as much as you think
Seriously though, self-driving or not. Crossing a road, in the dark (when there was a street light literally 15 feet away that would have illuminated that person), with no light or reflective clothing is REALLY stupid. When I was a kid I got a $5 ticket for not having a light on my bike, and my dad laughed that the police had nothing better to do. But honestly, I'm glad I got that ticket because people walking or riding bikes (especially near streets) should have lights. Also people just don't look anymore, and sometimes in broad daylight. I don't know how many times I'm driving through a strip mall, and people just walk blindly into traffic without looking expecting the drivers to do all the watching. I'm not saying pedestrians are just as much at fault (they do have right away), but man that's a lot of faith to be putting in drivers, especially as distracted as they are these days.
1 week later
Quoted from pezpunk:TRIED to buy right at the low point but Fidelity took like 36 hours to sell another stock to free up funds and I missed slightly. Eh, good enough.
another reason to like cryptocurrency trading, selling and buying is instant and only costs .5%
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another crash, rear-ended a firetruck at 60mph because she was texting, only broke an ankle.
https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-s-driver-says-autopilot-was-on-before-crash-1826022381
I believe they call it "semi-autonomous" for a reason
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Quoted from John_I:I would take the Bolt hands down.
Quoted from Brijam:The Bolt, IMO, looks like any other subcompact car - boring and forgettable
Doug thinks it's Uncool a year ago:
I will say that for $37k the bolt isn't "bad". I mean it's 200hp, 238 mile range for same money (tesla base is 220 mile range, 258hp). Most would argue tesla is cooler, but is the bolt more practical because it's a hatch? (I'm guessing it still doesn't fit a pin). Almost wish Honda would make an EV version of the Fit.
* I'm also guessing the bolt doesn't have any of the semi-autonomous features as the tesla, or access to supercharging?
Quoted from Eryeal:Wouldn't be surprised if big oil is also somewhat behind companies like GM not producing more EV cars.
not anymore, we have maybe 50 years of easily obtainable oil. even the arab countries producing oil have been investing in solar for the past decade. i think its dealers pushing back because once you have a car that rarely needs service, then they make no money on repairs... and contrary to popular belief, they dont make that much money on sales (less than 2%).
1 week later
I really want Tesla to succeed, they are too important to fail. However, Heighway pinball put up a tent for their printing department shortly before they closed (the first time). I really hope the tent is meant to be a temporary structure until they work out the issues in the main factory.
heighway_tent (resized).png
Quoted from AAAV8R:The company is still hemorrhaging money, and is running out of options for raising additional capital. Getting Model 3 production up to target levels was critical to mitigating cash flow losses. The second assembly line is clearly not functional, and Elon is obviously lying about it. Furthermore, even IF the second assembly line becomes operational, it will be crawling along using manual assembly.
Tesla is in big, big trouble.
Every new company hemorrhages money. Also Tesla IS being watched under the microscope because they are shaking up the industry.
If you think shady or unproductive things don't go on at other car factories you'd be wrong, just look at how Volkswagen lied about EPA numbers which resulted:
* billions of dollars in fines
* Who knows how much revenue lost from buying back cars, lost sales
* A lot of employees let go, many of them went to prison
GM engineers complain that they are in meetings 32 hours a week, leaving little time for doing actual work
https://jalopnik.com/ex-gm-engineer-explains-how-companys-culture-rewards-in-1593313126
Quoted from jalpert:A ICE P100D would get what? 12MPG? Maybe 15MPG? With Tesla’s effencieny, if your someone who likes to floor it all the time, the electric savings is a lot greater than it may seem. And most people aren’t taking the fact that they are buying a super car into account.
It's like today I saw a prius on the highway doing 90mph. Umm, you bought that hybrid for WHAT reason? Then on the same note, I'll see someone driving a mustang GT like a grandma, and again.. you bought that sports car for WHAT reason?
3 weeks later
Quoted from Brijam:People used to say that the market for the iPhone was limited because of its high cost, too. Or that meaningful competition from established brands like Nokia would destroy them.
no way apple is going to affect BlackBerry sales either.. i mean they are giants with thousands of programmers 
"people want physical buttons!" says nobody today
Rich rebuild showed up on the motherboard channel.. he brings a lot of this up on his own channel (about how tesla refuses to service salvaged vehicles, that they won't even sell you parts forcing owners to buy used parts to keep them running).. He also talks about how there are laws that say it's illegal to not allow owners to service their own vehicles so long as they have the proper tools to do so
Quoted from Brijam:I wouldn’t want to own any salvaged car. There’s a reason they’re called salvage.
And that's your choice, especially if you can afford one. If it weren't for the lack of support, and the rising prices of salvaged teslas, it might be a worthy project. I mean so long as it's not a flood car (just smashed in an accident), and can you repair all the damage I don't see the harm. The biggest reason (which he covers in one of his videos) why so many teslas are salvaged is because repairs are expensive (repair tech charges $800/hour), and that's if you don't mind waiting a few months to wait in line for it to be repaired.
Quoted from Brijam:I have a lot of trouble believing that $800 an hour figure. Can you give me a citation?
I mispoke, it's $125/hour. But I guess the point is that a fender bender still ended up costing $17k ($10k just in labor, and the rest in parts) because they control the pricing on parts. Obviously if something is a warranty that's a different story, but minor fender benders can be costly
Quoted from MrBally:If Tesla will not sell service parts to a vehicle owner, count me out as a potential customer until that changes.
Not exactly. If your car is under warranty, or is deemed road worthy they will sell you part (hence why they ask for a VIN number when you call customer service). And I get them not wanting a bunch of rogue mechanics fixing salvaged cars and either causing an accident (making tesla look bad), or perhaps they end up messing up a public charge station because of a faulty wire. I think what rich is trying to do is push for more certified mechanics, or some way of paying a shop to perform a diagnostic to check that his repair is kosher, not just lock him out and let any broken tesla to just sit and rot in a junkyard.
Quoted from Brijam:That's what insurance is for.
Yes, but I would imagine a $17k bill would make your rates go up, maybe even get dropped. In 18 years I made two claims on my house insurance policy, once for siding damage from hail, one from roof damage from wind. Each were about $10k in claims, only having to pay my deductible of $1,000. Needless to say, after the roof repair I got a letter in the mail that said if I ever have another claim, it won't be covered under my deductible, I will have to pay 4% of my current home's value, which is practically no coverage.
Quoted from mattosborn:what was the insurance company?
state farm.. who have been pretty decent to us as far as automobiles. I don't think it's the insurance company, our area is notorious for contractors contacting homes when a storm rolls through and taking care of most paperwork so they can get the work.
Quoted from Darscot:it puts a weird spin on Rich. Its so serious and paints him as this gorilla revolutionary against Tesla. The guy is so charismatic and hilarious, I wish they showed more of who he really is
I'm sure that channel has to keep things clean. One of his most recent episodes had a LOT of innuendo. It's not unusual for a documentary style channel to focus on the overall story rather than try to summarize everything. It WAS sort of nice seeing everything in clean HD video with good microphones as apposed to Rich's typical cellphone video.
Quoted from Brijam:But it's hard for me to imagine Tesla going under. They went from nothing to producing double Jaguar's total production in less than six years, and are sitting on three of the most popular luxury cars the world has ever seen.
agreed.. I remember watching youtube videos early on before they even had their first roadster in production of customers on the phone talking about how they want to support tesla to get them in production no matter what it takes (I don't know remember if that meant financial backing or just buying early production models). I would imagine with so many existing customers that want to continue seeing their current vehicle supported (and see what the next models are) they will do everything in their power to make sure they don't go away.
I liken it to how the pinball community reached out financially to try to keep alien production going, except in this case Tesla is a great proven product. Alien had too many issues, including it's maneuverability to keep throwing money at it.
Quoted from DCFAN:What does Chevy do about selling parts for the Volt?
It appears they will sell you ANY part you need for it:
https://www.gmpartsonline.net/auto-parts/2011/chevrolet/volt/base-trim/1-4l-l4-electric-gas-engine
Quoted from Brijam:Salvaged should mean literally that - you cannot drive it
are you sure? insurance companies deem a car's title "salvage" when the repairs exceed 80% of the value, which in some cases could be only body damage. If you're driving a 2000 ford focus and you get rear ended at 10mph, repairing it could easily meet that, but it can still be perfectly safe to drive.
Quoted from Brijam:Did anyone else see the tweet from Elon saying that you'll be able to play classic Atari games as easter eggs in all Teslas in about 4 weeks? Pole Position using the steering wheel??? GTFO
In russia, tetris plays you!
Quoted from Brijam:Q2 earnings are out and they're much better than I expected. After hours trading on Tesla is up 5% at the moment as a result.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/1/17639588/tesla-earning-q2-2018-model-3-production
pasted_image (resized).pngQuoted from Brijam:It’s a shame that Toyota went down the hydrogen dead end road.
it's also a shame they stopped innovating. While nearly every other car company is adding hi-tech features (none quite as much as tesla), toyota is happy with their nearly bone stock vehicles (but they'll sell you 20% of those features if you buy the top package model). My wife's parents are stuck on toyota and bought a sienna about 2 years ago. Not only does the navigation system suck, but you CANNOT make changes to your route unless you park the car. There is no armrest navigation, everything is touch screen only. There's not even a "but I'm a passenger" button. Your phone app is more advanced than the $1200 navigation system toyota sold you. Ironic that my username has toyota in it, and even I don't support them anymore.
Quoted from o-din:I'm happy Toyota's not going out of their way to overstuff with a bunch of high-tech bullshit
I don't usually complain about my basic scion XD, but man driving my wife's fully loaded mazda cx-5 is a huge jump in features. auto wipers, easy navigation wheel, lane departure detection, distance settable cruise control, heated seats, sunroof. Can I live without all these features? Sure, but they're starting to become the norm. At one time power windows used to be a "feature", then honda managed to cost reduce the electric one down until it was cheaper than the manual crank. Toyota might be reliable, but the boring "appliance car" is becoming more true every year.
Quoted from robertmee:Not an apples to apples comparison. Especially considering the least inexpensive tesla currently is how much?
$35k (it was 28.5k before the tax rebate expired). The same money gets you a nissan leaf or a chevy bolt, both which don't have the same battery range or speed, or the charging speed. Currently there's really no way for ANY manufacturer to build an electric car with a decent range for less than $35k, and it's not the motor or the technology, it comes down to the price of lithium-ion cells. Tesla has the best chance at maximizing cost reduction by optimizing the cell size eliminating the middle man by producing it themselves. Every car manufacturer really needs to have at least one electric car in their lineup because the day a battery breakthrough happens (increasing capacity or reducing cost, or both), electric is going to be VERY competitive with ICE.
Quoted from phil-lee:The Tucker and Delorean come to mind as ahead of their time upstarts destroyed by the big three. I would not feel comfortable holding the stock long term.
that IS apples and oranges.
The Tucker was made in the 50s, back when there were rarely any cars imported, and it truly was "the big three" stomping every small start up. They stopped him with bad press (because there was no internet to fact check), and by restricting buying of steel (now steel is made overseas, they can't stop that). Let's also not forget the bailout the big three got from the government to stay afloat from 2009-2013, they aren't nearly as big anymore
https://www.thebalance.com/auto-industry-bailout-gm-ford-chrysler-3305670
Delorean made the dumb mistake of being a middle man for cocaine transport to help keep his business afloat rather than seeking investors.
Quoted from robertmee:Way under powered, crappy build quality by under trained staff in Ireland, and was Mish mashed together after dumping the rotary engine for a Peugeot 130hp v6.
completely agree with all of that.. it's still a sweet looking car (which is also an iconic movie car), but it has many faults. Of course if you swap a vette motor in it's a different story:
Quoted from Brijam:Given the fact that solar and wind are now the cheapest forms of power by far
The actual panels and wind turbines are cheap these days... Getting those devices to work with the power grid (converting, managing the power, conditioning it, storing it) are still challenging and expensive. A lot of the electrical companies (at least from conversations I've had with someone that lives in california) make it very difficult to not only setup a solar system, but they limit how much you can sell back (and they also screw you when they DO buy electricity from you).
I've been following "mechanical energy" storage on youtube. Bill gates is a big believer in it. Basically instead of using batteries (which are expensive and have a limited lifespan), you say use that energy to run a low gear motor that lifts a heavy weight on a pulley (which creates potential energy). As you need energy, you simply run the system in reverse.
Quoted from Brijam:Grid tie systems aren’t challenging at all. It is trivial to have both solar and grid power in a house.
The way I understand how it works (solar typically runs above 12v, gets regulated to 12v, then an inverter upconverts it to 120vac), but it's my understanding that even if you don't sell power back that you still have to run a true sine wave inverter because you can't mix it with grid AC if that were the case (unless you have some master switch that runs off the grid during the day, then you switch over to grid power after a certain time because power is dirt cheap). Even if you buy the building blocks (believe me, I've watched a ton of youtube videos on it), it seems like the controllers can get expensive when you start talking going above about 30 amps. Also there's a lot you have to be careful of while wiring it all up just the same if you were doing electrical work (don't know if there's like a "off the grid for dummies" book)? I can imagine someone making a lot of assumptions and not taking pre-cautions with proper fusing and causing an electrical fire.
On that note, I really like this dude's 4 videos about his tesla power brick installation:
Quoted from Manhattan:I am concerned for this latest project that Rich has been working on for the last while since unlike his last salvage this one was underwater for 10 days. I'll be curious to see if he's able to finish
me too.. I mean circuit boards can usually be repaired (so long as components are available) even if traces have to be blasted to prevent further corossion (or jumpered). I didn't look closely but I would imagine the boards are surface mount (which makes repair far harder). That electric motor though, that definitely had some red water coming out. Unless you want to grind the rotor and re-wire the stator, I don't see how that's going to get repaired. Who knows, maybe he'll run into someone else like him that has non-flooded boards and motor and is either willing to sell it, or trade it for parts that he has.
Quoted from AAAV8R:I just looked it up and TSLA is reporting a free float of 126.03 million.
126.03 x 420 = $52.93 BILLION
Also, TSLA has a net debt of around $8.8 BILLION
So, right out of the gate, you are going to have to raise around $61 BILLION, and we haven't even begun to talk about free cash flow, working capital, or debt service.
would you borrow $60+ BILLION dollars to a car company that is losing $8-16 million dollars a day?1`
ARE they still losing money? (and that much?). I thought they were approaching cash positive. Let's assume next quarter they are, is any car company worth 61 billion? Sure, I mean volkswagen is worth 75 billion, toyota is worth 236 billion. Surely Tesla has more potential value than Volkswagen. You have to wonder though, is he just switching from being owned by stockholders, to being owned by private investors? Or do you think it's like a shark deal where he gets a loan by giving up a small percentage of the company, and he can slowly pay that loan back as the company ramps up?
Quoted from Brijam:the Saudis are under a mandate to create a trillion dollar non-oil return, and Tesla would be on the top of anyone’s list for that
it's true, they are weaning off an oil based economy. they plan to build a 200GW power plant by 2030:
https://qz.com/1240862/what-saudi-arabias-200-gw-solar-power-plant-would-look-like-from-space/
Not only do they want to provide power for europe, global warming keeps making every year hotter. something has to power all those air conditioners.
Quoted from DCFAN:The last thing I want is a Russian made car, or a Russian made anything for that matter.
are you sure? they are great quality
I wasn't implying someone in the US would want one, but someone in russia might. Plus Tesla is a global car company.. And if someone in russia is making something to compete, clearly Tesla is doing something right.
Another tesla owner frustrated with the company's lack of support (service, parts, etc) once the warranty is out.. However, he does comment that "the tesla is like a lego set, very easy to work on". So come on Tesla, start supporting your early supporters.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/28/tesla-owner-frustrated-so-fixes-his-own-model-s-easy-as-legos.html
Quoted from Brijam:However, I wonder how they will compete on price, given Tesla’s dominance and economies of scale in battery production, and Mercedes and BMW having to outsource their batteries from third parties. The battery is far and away the largest cost for the car.
agreed.. just look at the electric car BMW has today. less range, high price tag, not quite up to par with the same quality of other BMW's. If nothing else, any of these companies releasing electric cars are doing so as an R&D case, possibly using it to offset carbon credits, but they will have a tough time catching up. I don't blame any of them for trying, I just don't know how successful any of them will be.
Quoted from crwjumper:Before you call for Elon to step down, watch the interview with Joe Rogan above. In full.
Exactly... I don't think he even breathes it in.. it's such a short part of the interview, but the media takes a snapshot and makes it look like he smoked through the entire interview.
Quoted from Nilroc:Look at the facts! Tesla is doing just fine!
I watched that entire interview with amazement.. He stated an interesting fact... there are only 2 car companies that have never filed for bankruptcy, Ford and Tesla. Both of them were really close to shutting it's doors in 2008 when the crash happened, but they continued on (Ford did get a loan, not a bailout, and they paid it back in full unlike Chrysler and GM).
Quoted from Electrocute:Still don't see Teslas on the road. What's up with that?
you live in a rural area then. I see them constantly.. Model 3's, Model X's and S's. In fact the Turo app lets you rent cars from people, and there's at least 4-5 of them to rent within 40 miles of my home.
Quoted from RyanStl:Okay, I'm 20 minutes into the Joe Rogan - Elon Musk interview and I won't be able to sleep tonight. I have a new respect for Elon; I have never heard him talk like this before, only doing Steve Jobs like reveals. This quote in Sarah Connor like tones is disturbing me:
"I tried to convince people to slow down, slow down A.I., to regulate A.I,” Musk said. “This was futile. I tried for years. Nobody listened.”
If you really don't want to sleep tonight, just watch some boston dynamics videos and realize they have completely autonomous (without tethering) robotic dogs and humanoids.
Interesting thing about boston dynamics, 10 years ago they started with gas engines for the power, now they are completely silent electric motor driven.
Quoted from Brijam:I think Elon is talking about big industrial robots and how they are trying to speed them up to increase higher output on the assembly line.
He is, probably has pick and place robots like this one to build cells (and possibly weld tabs)
1 week later
Quoted from DCFAN:all manufacturers will use the same pay chargers at service stations/areas as the infastructure gets built up.
Most gas stations make very little from the gas, most of it is made from store purchases as a convenience. I do wonder if at some point stations will start giving discounts for purchases. I mean wifi made people hang around coffee shops more to spend more on coffee. Granted wifi is cheap and giving out more doesn't cost any more (compared to electricity that DOES cost per kwatt). But I could see gas stations with restaurants giving say half off charging fee if they spend at least $10 at their restaurant, since they have to waste time anyway. Stores like Target could do the same, spend at least $10 in their store, get a discount on your charging.
Quoted from Brijam:Except it looks like the Tesla battery at least will have 80% charge at 500,000 miles, so battery service may not be a big issue.
How is Tesla making such a better battery? And when did they get this good, when they opened the gigafactory to build their own? The original Nissan leaf will only go about 40k miles before the battery starts not fully charging, but perhaps this is because it has a shorter range (like 1/3 the capacity) so it's going to cycle more. Still seems high, but impressive if true. Interesting how in the 80s the norm for a car was about 100k miles for it's average lifespan before it was ready to trade in. Now today the average ICE car can easily hit 200k miles before developing major issues. If a Tesla battery (and hopefully the motor) can reach 500k miles, that's amazing achievement. Maybe the higher price is justified if you can get more than twice the life out of it.
Quoted from Luckydogg420:I just watched a video on the chive, where a guy in a model 3 was pulled over because the cop had never heard of a Tesla before and the cop thought that the dash screen was added to the car, not a stock factory installed screen.
Once the cop realized that the screen was part of the car he apologized and carried on his way.
how does someone who's job it is to interact with traffic has no idea of a 10 year old car company exists? this has to be in some southern ho-dunk town.
Quoted from pezpunk:I do not see any logic to that assertion.
agreed.. Also nobody is going to reduce their carbon footprint to zero. But anyone that makes positive choices to use less waste (eat less meat, buy less packaged foods, drive a more efficient car even if they can't afford electric, hypermiling, carpooling, using LED lighting at home) should pat themselves on the back. A lot of Americans are very wasteful and simply don't care about the envoirment.
Ed Begley Jr is uber green and just built a custom house that is nearly zero carbon footprint (it's actually pretty amazing if you read up on it). Everything from solar, to insulation, to reclaiming rainwater and wastewater from sinks.
2 weeks later
Quoted from pezpunk:not a knock on toyotaboy, but i really don't know why anyone puts any stock whatsoever into these absurd third-party teardowns with analysis from people with zero insight into why specific engineering decisions were made, and how they impact Tesla's bottom line or the vehicle's operation. i really can't stress enough how worthless this exercise is.
There's negatives, but there's also many positives if you watch the whole thing. That tesla has designed the cheapest and lightest electric motor, that they've also designed the most powerful one by stacking neodynium magnets, that their battery pack has phenomenal engineering that will likely last a long time.
Having more parts than necessary, or more screw sizes/lengths is never a good thing. They aren't knocking the design necessarily, just commenting it could be done better. Of course Tesla has only had 10 years to learn how to manufacture, so they certainly aren't doing bad.
1 week later
1 week later
Quoted from goatdan:I'm happy to be out of the gas game, excepting one snow blower...
I don't own a tesla, nor do I know when I'll afford one.. but I did go all electric landscaping last year. Greenworks electric mower, greenworks electric hedgeclipper, Echo electric Trimmer, AC Corded snowblower off amazon (I have a small driveway). I now have a 2 gallon gas tank sitting in my garage I need to get rid of because nothing uses it.
Quoted from Brijam:there's one in my area for $5k on craigslist right now.
they seem to be cheaper in portland, maybe because there's more of them out there. But yea, used leafs are pretty cheap compared to what they are new. Still pounding on my gas car, might consider a used leaf when it's been beaten into the ground.
Quoted from goatdan:Unless it's a 2011/12. The batteries in those are garbage and Nissan refuses to work on some of them because of a weird lawsuit they had, so they should be avoided like the plague
Good to know, but you're just saying they won't warranty it right? If you found a cheap 2011 with a crappy battery, you could still pay $5,500 plus installation for a new battery right?
Quoted from goatdan:Without a going too far into the weeds on it, Nissan chose to charge the Leaf essentially like a phone, so it's not surprising the batteries degrade badly, although those originals were SO MUCH worse. Tesla really looked at their battery tech and added the thermal management stuff, and they also seem to build in a buffer so you're never actually charging to 100%
it's amazing how some companies don't know how lithium-ion works. Even with AGM cells (I used to work for schumacher electric) you want to not only vary the voltage as you charge, but you want to constantly monitor the voltage to get a good estimate of when the battery is truly full.
Quoted from goatdan:From what I understand, they won't warranty it OR work on it. They won't touch it. And since they are the only source for new batteries, you're SOL
I think that's why we're seeing a lot of really cheap 11/12 leafs. The owners know eventually the battery is going to die without a replacement option, or the range will be so terrible it's hardly worth owning. But like you said, eventually someone is bound to make an aftermarket battery, and I believe you can build a BMS system into the pack itself so even if your charging system is dumb it manages the power coming in to prolong the life.
Found this thread that confirms at least a 30kwh battery can be retrofitted into an older leaf, but it's a rare case that a dealer is willing to do it
https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/battery-upgrade-for-old-leafs.532/
"There is youtube channel where a 2012 Leaf battery went bad and just barely got replaced under warranty. The new range was over 120 miles so it looked like a 30 kWr had been put into the car. Comments suggested that the battery management system in the battery pack was changed some how to work with the older car. The car didn't know the difference. It's all in the battery case"
found this video interesting. While not recommended, this guy had someone tow him to see how much the regenerative braking would recharge his battery. It's very likely that Tesla's estimating software is off (14 miles of charge to 1 mile of towing sounds too good to be true considering regen braking is like 70% efficient).
1 week later
Without getting political (because all our presidents have turned a blind eye), Trump doesn't care that a journalist was murdered so long as gas prices are low. How about you just avoid oil to begin with?
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-saudi-arabia-oil-prices_us_5bf55699e4b0eb6d930a2d28
Quoted from sd_tom:rivian unveiled today, 0-60 in 3 seconds
https://electrek.co/2018/11/26/rivian-r1t-all-electric-pickup-specs/
Just popped up in my news feed too. $70k is a lot (even before incentives), but it's not THAT far away from some of these upper end gas pickups. no wonder why Elon bumped up the pickup truck project and pushed the semi project back, he has competition now.
Quoted from goatdan:It's a fascinating day because of Chevy's massive cuts today, which they said this about:
"GM now intends to prioritize future vehicle investments in its next-generation battery-electric architectures,” the company said in a Monday news release.
Wow! 7 factories closing down by end of next year, that's huuge
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-26/gm-to-cut-10-000-jobs-targets-5-factories-for-closing-next-year
Vehicles dropped: Buick LaCrosse, Chevrolet Impala and Cadillac CT6 sedans next year. The Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid will also be dropped along with the Chevy Cruze compact, which will be made in Mexico for other markets.
Quoted from Brijam:But does anyone actually believe that Ford will cannibalize their F150 juggernaut by marketing a superior F150EV?
Depends on what the F150EV costs. If it's $20k more, most landscapers and contractors will probably continue to buy the $30k gas version simply because it's cheaper (you'd be amazed how many of them will use cheap gas which clogs up their carbs, which ends up probably costing more than just buying better gas). If you're buying an F150 to run a ranch, or you're a high-end landscaper (brick walls, low voltage lighting) or high-end contractor (building theater rooms n such) you might consider buying an EV version. Ideally Ford should try to maintain as many parts from the gas version and simply retrofit the EV portion, maybe swap out all the lamps for LED, add an LCD screen in the middle, call it a day until EV sales start outpacing the gas version.
But like has been mentioned MANY times in this thread, Tesla will always have the upper hand not only making their own batteries, but owning the charging grid, not to mention they have 10 years of testing (consumers driving their vehicles). It's going to be very difficult for any major company to catch up, even volkswagen claiming they're going to invest 50 billion to squash the competition.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Has anyone heard about the Hyundai Kona EV? Price with tax subsidy should be close to $30k for the lower model. 258 mile range, larger and a good deal cheaper then the Model 3.
Whenever you see a cheap EV, always question the batteries. Seems the Kona EV is using NCM 811 cells, which are made by CATL (same manufacturer that VW is looking to make their batteries). I really hope some of these car companies have done their homework, that's a lot of investment to put into a battery supplier.
Kia soul EV is going to be 201hp equivalent, 240 mile range, and an estimated price of $33k. Yes a base model3 isn't much higher, but when is that base model going to be available? Hopefully before this comes out next year. Plus it still qualifies for the $7500 tax incentive, which would drop the cost to $25.5k
https://jalopnik.com/the-2020-kia-soul-ev-gets-much-better-range-and-deserve-1830748157
https://insideevs.com/volkswagens-21000-future-ev-e-up/
"It’s great to hear that VW is updating their electric subcompact, but this ~$21,000 future EV didn’t turn out to be the Tesla competitor that Bloomberg had predicted"
1 week later
Porsche and bmw testing 80% charging in 15 minutes, double the capacity of tesla.. however this is a test battery that has not been tested for lifecycle, and it requires secondary cooling.
Vw's electric car is announced, rumored to be called neo.
https://www.engadget.com/2018/12/17/vw-id-range-and-more-info/
Anyone else think it looks a little bit like the cop car from demolition man?
vw_neo (resized).jpg
demoman-cop_car (resized).jpg
SOLO? 100 mile range, 82mph top speed, 0-60 in 8 seconds. Not great, but cheap
https://electrameccanica.com/product/solo-reservation
$15k, but there may not be any tax incentives because it's technically not a car since it has only 3 wheels
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4223279-design-flaw-prevents-california-residents-obtaining-electrameccanica-cars-virtually-cost
1 week later
Quoted from Luckydogg420:I like this video, it’s fun. But realistically it’s not that impressive. There are lots of cars that could drag a pickup with only its emergency break on. Probably anything with 250hp and 4 wheel drive.
No it's not necessarily impressive, I've seen videos of tesla cars towing semitrucks (because it has the torque and 4-wheel drive). I was more posting this because I can't believe there are such anti-electric a-holes that are seriously purposely blocking chargers.
don't mean to hyperpost, but found this interesting. This is Chevy's concept for a drag ready Camaro. 800 volts and as much horsepower. What intrigues me is that they made sure they chose a motor that easily bolts up to most of Chevy's existing transmissions which if this is successful they could possibly offer a DIY kit to convert older chevy vehicles. Lord knows there are a ton of used cheap chevy's out there, many with blown engines that would be a perfect fit for something like this.
Quoted from OnTheSnap:As an owner of a Model 3 Performance and Model X P100D, seeing this stuff going on really depresses me
Rich's multi-part series of his car purchase is making tesla look REALLY bad. How do you have such poor communication? If I were him I'd make them pay me for wasting my time.
VW is showing off their MEB platform
https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-engineering-behind-vws-electric-car-pla-1829257860
Quoted from Brijam:No, the average cost in 2018 of a new car in the USA was $35k:
You are correct sadly, but that's not to say there aren't a LOT of vehicles less than that. My wife's fully loaded CX-5 was $32k which I never thought I'd spend on a vehicle. I doubt my next vehicle will be $35k, it'll most likely be a $20k honda fit. But yes, $35k for a vehicle isn't outrageous these days, especially one that has little maintenance, low fuel cost (electricity is still cheaper), and very high resale value (because tesla batteries typically last 200k miles with above 80% capacity).
Quoted from Richthofen:No one predicted Amazons success because no one ever tried the whole “sell things at a loss and don’t worry about the bottom line” strategy
I always knew they would succeed, maybe not to the level they are today. In the early 2000's I really enjoyed the convenience and ease of being able to search for anything I needed on Ebay, but couldn't find EVERYTHING. Didn't take long for bezos to realize the same thing. Sears not only didn't innovate and keep up with times, they slowly thinned out their stores until you had no customer support. Perfect example is this kid quitting his job at Sears:
Quoted from Brijam:No release date.
No technical details.
No price.
No large screen monitor.
Front wheel drive.
Vague mention of 300 mile range being the 'sweet spot.'
agreed, and very odd. Why would you release a conceptual sketch of what your SUV electric might look like? Only reason I can think of is they are trying to sway customers to wait (for some date in the future?) instead of jumping to another company for an electric car. This is almost like how Chicago Gaming announces a bunch of potential upcoming titles, and gets people to hold onto their money instead of spending it on something else.
Just goes to show how desperate GM is right now.
Quoted from Richthofen:Looks like unfortunately Telsa is doing workforce cuts. As much as I dislike Elon Musk, I always sympathize with anyone losing a job.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/18/elon-musk-tesla-email-to-employees-about-job-cuts.html
all in the name of cutting overhead so he can finally sell a 35k model3 and still make a small margin. its becoming a very competitve market in the EV space now, hes thinking ahead. he knows bigger companies are going to find ways to build a cheaper car.
Quoted from robertmee:I think appealing to masses might be a mistake...part of the past allure of Tesla was it's rarity and uniqueness. Once it becomes as ubiquitous as a camry, it's no longer appealing to many. At least to me. I get maybe Musk is trying to spark a revolution, but often the pioneers are left behind when the next Gen enters the fray. Time will tell.
i dont think that was ever his goal, to be low volume unique. if he was, he would have just kept selling 100k models. but theres only so big of a market willing to fork over that money. his end goal has always seemed to be about eliminating the need for fossil fuels to transport us around, changing the world for the better, not running some elite corporation.
Quoted from robertmee:Once you start selling $35K cars to mass markets with razor thin margins that are used to the reliability and fit/finish of a honda or camry, then I forsee lots of complaints. Tesla is already receiving backlash for the handling of warranty claims for the model 3's they sold last year.
Money doesn't make problems go away.. Even if tesla were making $50k on every car sold the issues would still be there (though theoretically they could hire more engineers to fix those issues). There's a reason why high volume vehicles like camry's, corollas, accords, F-150's have few issues (none of which I would consider high end cars).. Because they sell a LOT of them so they can't afford to. The biggest money suck of any company are warranty issues, and it's not just the replacement part but often labor, shipping parts to dealers, the un-measurable loss of sales from the perception that your product quality sucks.
Quoted from robertmee:Ferrari has been more profitable and sales are up 30% since they were divorced from their parent company, Fiat
Again, apples to oranges comparison. Ferrari sales probably went up because now they are truly Ferrari (I assume fiat had some influence, maybe even sharing of certain parts). Same can be said for Mazda when they split back away from Ford. Remember when Mercedes meant something? Then Chrysler bought them and they started to suck?
Quoted from robertmee:The problem will be when apples to apples comparisons are made between a 35K model 3 and a Camry by the general buying public in that market sector for fit/finish, quality, reliability and dealer support.
Not untrue... but don't hold your breathe. Toyota is waiting until the midnight hour to switch over to battery, and right now Tesla has a 10-year lead on them (by the time Toyota does release an electric car, it will be 15 years).
I know there are lots of positive with tesla (cool factor, exclusive charging), but $36k ($30k after incentives) for a hyundai SUV with a 201hp motor and 258 mile range isn't bad. Tesla REALLY needs to get that $35k model3 going
https://electrek.co/2019/01/28/hyundai-kona-ev-us-pricing
hyundai_kona_EV (resized).png
Tesla just acquired Maxwell ultracapacitors for 200 million in stock options:
https://electrek.co/2019/02/04/tesla-acquires-ultracapacitor-battery-manufacturer
If claims are true, this doubles the capacity, greatly speeds up charge time, and reduces cost by 10-20%.
Quoted from DCFAN:The EV market will really take off if solid state battery tech happens. It would probably simplify the materials acquisition, lower costs, lower the chance of fires, lower charging time, and increase the mileage/range significantly.
There's one more advantage of using a capacitor over a battery, cycles. Lithium-ion typically has between 500-1000 charge cycles before it starts deteriorating (IE instead of getting 100% capacity, it starts dropping the max charge cycle). Super capacitors typically have a million cycle lifespan. Imagine buying a car (with a brushless motor where the only thing that can really wear is the shaft itself) and also a power cell that will easily outlast the car. First company do implement this is going to have a HUGE advantage in the EV market.
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Quoted from goatdan:For the stores, at first I was thinking this was a big and bad sign. Then I realized they are planning on keeping the Galleries and using those. After that, I realized they are essentially going to way cut back staff on those and have people come look at the vehicles cheaper, allowing them to buy online. Seems like a simple win to me.
While the whole demand thing can spike prices (and desire), it can also annoy people and make them say "forget, I'm buying something else". It happens all the time in pinball. JJP announces pirates, takes them like a year to finally start manufacturing it, meanwhile Stern puts out 3 games in that time frame. You better believe people cancel orders when a different shiny toy comes out first.
Apple had no problems selling phones direct to consumers before they had a TON of apple stores, and those stores are mostly needed for the genius bar (IE service) more so than selling product these days (though some fan boys like the experience of waiting in line the day of). With any business, one of your biggest cash sucks are salaries so I see this as a positive. Judging from Rich rebuilds, Tesla clearly needs to work on customer service and communication more than anything.
Is it really just an F150, or are those tailpipes just there to throw everyone off that this is NOT the next tesla pickup truck.. Why would they be transporting a ford?
https://electrek.co/2019/03/07/tesla-carrier-camouflaged-pickup-truck/
tesla_truck (resized).pngQuoted from sd_tom:that isnt weird mobile enough for the tesla truck since elon has been tweeting that its very futuristic, blade runner, 'not sure everyone will like it'.. that truck looks like a standard truck.. which, would be welcomed actually but not what hes been telegraphing.
It's also possible the body isn't done being designed (or at least tooled up), and they are temporarily using an existing truck body to test the chassis in parallel (which also disguises it). In my field when we are developing a new product we will often borrow parts from competitors until we've designed our own.
Quoted from Richthofen:Is it sci-fi's fault? Or a deliberately bad marketing effort on Tesla's part. It's called autopilot for crying out loud, its name practically implies you can treat it like airplane autopilot when that is clearly not the case. Doesn't help that Musk keeps saying the cars are going to drive themselves 100% any day now, and adding features like 'summon' where the car is driving itself without a driver behind the wheel. Completely irresponsible.
even in "auto pilot" mode in a plane, that doesn't mean you can go take a nap while the plane is flying either.. other objects in the sky that arent part of flight plans can interfere. auto pilot on a plane is usually so pilots can eat but still pay attention in front of them. problem is most of the public doesnt know better. hell, 99% of people dont read manuals to products they buy before calling customer service.
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https://www.zdnet.com/article/ark-invest-tesla-is-three-years-ahead-of-all-its-competitors
* Tesla is 3 years ahead of peers like Nvidia in autonomous hardware, given the specs of the custom chip it released late last year.
* Elon Musk said that Tesla started building the chip (Tesla Autopilot artificial intelligence (AI) supercomputer) three years ago, and that it will enable a 2000 percent improvement over the Nvidia system it will replace.
* ARK estimates that EV sales could reach 26 million by 2023, up from 1.3 million in 2018, if battery production scales accordingly.
* By year-end 2020, Tesla drivers will be able to relinquish all responsibility to Autopilot and fall asleep while being transported from point to point, pending regulatory approval, per Elon Musk.
Quoted from Darscot:There has already been several significant accidents caused by autopilot and even deaths. There is no expectation that it will be flawless it only has to be better statistically than a person.
current system is 20fps. new system is 2,000fps. barring issues like sun or bad road markers, it will start reacting to any situation FAR faster than any human can.
Quoted from Eryeal:But the sad part is that when, not if, there is a significant accident "caused" by a Tesla on autopilot, it's probably going to derail things for a very, very long time - simply due to perception and media. Not to mention the financial implications that will cause Tesla to be heavily sued by anyone involved in a Tesla autopilot accident. It's one thing for the driver to be sued, it's another for the company because people will go after a LOT more $$$ from Tesla than if an individual caused the accident. And now there will be at least two parties suing - the owner of the Tesla and whomever else was involved in the accident
Since tesla has SO many sensors / cameras on-board (that I'm assuming is being recorded), it should be the ideal blackbox. I'm guessing if a case really went to court, they could take that data, create a driving simulation to recreate the accident (sun, road markers, vehicles involved), and have jurors drive in that simulation and see how many (if any) avoid the accident. If none of them do any better than the tesla auto pilot, it'll prove it wasn't at fault. If you ever watched the movie sully, this is exactly what they did. They accused the pilot that he could have made it to a nearby airport, and when they made the simulation realistic (not immediately headed for an airport, but accessing the damage and going through the manual protocol), no pilot would have ever made it to the airport.
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Quoted from sd_tom:hope you guys never have to rent a car somewhere
Wouldn't surprise me if car rentals start looking at electric cars. Think about it, rentals keep cars around what.. maybe 40k miles. Why? Because they want to dump them while they still have some value (and before they start developing major issues). A model 3 has all the early quality issues worked out. There aren't motor shafts wearing out, the batteries have really good charge cycle (I heard something like 180,000 miles before it begins to degrade). Plus the car rental can recharge right there (not have to have a porter run out to the nearby gas station when someone forgets to refill), and if they worked with Tesla I'm sure they could add a software driven limiter (so drivers don't enable ludicrous mode and prematurely wear them out but still have reasonable acceleration). With assisted driving mode, it would also be a safer car so the liability insurance is probably lower. Plus while many of us are still not at the $36k average new car pricing, many rental cars are so it wouldn't necessarily be out of their price range.
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So early testing claims currently 90% battery capacity at 160k miles (which has proven to be true so far with most buyers), with a claimed total life of about 300-500k miles (not sure how quickly that degrade goes).
Now Musk claims the drive train is currently designed for 1 million miles (same as a commercial truck), but has plans to make a battery to match (IE car would keep going for 1 million miles ). I can't fathom that.. I can believe it, but I'm trying to wrap my mind around a vehicle lasting a million miles. Even at an aggresive 20k miles a year, it would take you 5 decades to drive it into the ground.
https://electrek.co/2019/04/23/tesla-battery-million-miles-elon-musk
Quoted from StrangeSubset1:$4.39 per Gallon in SoCal as of today!!!
And I just drive by grinning .
jeez! i hope thats for premium at least. its $3.10 for regular in the midwest. i too hope gas prices go up, but it seems like electric cars lowering the demand for fuel is helping keep it relatively down (it did used to be $4.30 gallon the midwest 8 years ago).
i did a calculation.. tesla is about 5 cents per mile to charge. i pay about 10 cents per mile ($3.10 / 30mpg). so if tesla batteries typically have 80% charge capacity by 160,000 miles (i consider this the tipping point of downfall), i save $8k. now if i charge for free in public not at home, that savings doubles. so if the model 3 base were to drop to 35k again, you could potentially factor in an additional $16k in fuel savings making it a $19k car. throw in savings from oil changes youre down another $2k. $17k for an electric car really isnt sounding so bad now.
Quoted from ktownhero:Assuming $0.16 per kwh, I get only about 3.6 cents per mile... And for much of the country it's probably lower than that.
I'm basing this on a long range AWD model 3 with a 75kwh pack and a range of 310 miles.
im at about that, but we are heavily taxed so its closer to 20 cents a kwh
Quoted from SkillShot:It was the same with Hoover, they had no interest in making a vacuum without a bag because selling bags was a billion dollar industry. They only did it because Dyson stepped in and forced it on them. Tesla is going to do the same to cars. Ford and others still want you to buy belts, pay for oil changes, and etcetera.
Agreed...
Every dealer:
#1 profit income is financing (even if they don't own it, the local banks give them low rates and they toss in their own percentage)
#2 Service (yes, those engines that always have issues). Both the dealership makes a profit off the service itself, and hiking up the cost of parts
#3 Used car sales.
They make practically nothing on a new car sale because there's an MSRP so there isn't much wiggle room since if you raise your prices too high, they'll just go to a different dealer.
1. I'm guessing Tesla also makes money off financing if the person isn't paying cash
2. There isn't much service, unless you had an accident, or just a weird issue
3. Tesla is trying to get into the used car market but clearly they aren't doing very well. Also there isn't a big inventory because many cars that got tax incentives can't sell it yet
Quoted from goatdan:That's not true. I got a tax incentive for our 3 this past year. I could have sold it immediately afterward and still got it.
then this news story is lying
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/27/tesla-model-3-used-car-sales-in-usa-continue-to-taunt-bmw-audi-others
"used car statistics at that point might be skewed by the federal tax rebate on EVs. If people sold their Tesla Model 3 before the beginning of 2019, they wouldn’t get the rebate of $7,500. This was economically valuable to buyers in a direct way"
Quoted from michiganpinball:What I don't think a lot of people understand though is the rate of change the electric cars are seeing. They are evolving at a much faster rate then we are used to. They are more a technology product than a car product as far as improvement goes. In 3 years I would suspect that the latest and greatest electric car (be it Tesla or whoever) will have a range of 600 miles, be lighter, have double the torque, "almost" drive itself, and DC- DC fast charge in 20 minutes or less. All of this is in the pipeline now. I don't think ICE cars can keep up. Putting the environmental arguments aside even, the E-cars will shortly be better.
It does seem to be that way, and I'm not sure how electric differs from gas? (or do they have the same and electric companies are just more aggressive). If you look up something like cruise control wiki, it was first introduced in 1900. Modern cruise control was introduced in 1948, the first patent was filed in 1955, the first low-priced version was added to AMC cars in 1965, the first electronic cruise control patented in 1968, and wasn't really rolled out to most cars until 2 decades later when motorola made it safe with a CMOS chip (plus gas prices were pushing for efficiency). I think maybe it's just a timing thing, we have really good technology today that let's us develop so much faster now. Or maybe it's a "clean sheet" thing where tesla isn't dragged down by all of it's legacy things, so they are 75% of the way with their first tesla model, and all these jumps are because they only have to fix that last 15%.
Quoted from jawjaw:Electric just will not work for commercial vehicles
define commercial.. semi's? covered. Work truck for contractors? Coming (and not just tesla, ford just invested half a billion in rivian)
Quoted from jawjaw:people in rural areas
Rural people also have electricity last time I checked. Charging stations are everywhere.. Hell go watch hoovies garage on youtube, he lives in the middle of rural kansas, owned a used tesla for 6 months before he got bored with how reliable it was
Quoted from jawjaw:those that need to cover a lot of miles every day
Tesla has what, 250 mile range? latest quick charge is 10-15 minutes? How many miles are we talking?
Quoted from jawjaw:Costs will always be a factor as well as well. Few will be able to buy new and doubt there will be much market for old, high mileage electric cars. Right now you can go buy a $5000 used Toyota Corolla or something like that and still drive it for many miles
And even an old corolla is going to need gas and oil changes. You can also buy a used nissan leaf for $5-$7k. The difference in price could easily be justified just in fuel and oil changes alone
Quoted from jawjaw:I'm sure plenty of people that watched the moon landing and then the space shuttle launches thought we would all be flying in rockets ships and living on Mars by now. In 50-100 years, who knows but doubt much will change in my lifetime
Ok now you're comparing space flight to cars? Flying is a little more difficult than innovating a car. Even if we had working "space ships", there's still the very strict FAA regulations you have to comply with (and for the average citizen). I don't know what they were dreaming of back then.
Quoted from MrBally:Because some of the people on this thread are scientists and engineers.
im an engineer that also works for a company that makes small engines. ask me what a pain it is to test our product when engine rpm varies so much.. when product is audited and carbs have to be adjusted individually because every engine is different. how much we love having to buy carbon credits, or having to use expensive catalytic exhausts for anything sold in California. the second batteries become cheap enough there is going to be a huge shift for our product to go from gas to electric.. we already sell electric but nowhere on the scale of gas... yet
I love Tesla, but seeing these 2 videos yesterday has me doubting them a little (more so rich rebuilds than a clock display, but still)
The idea that a programmer isn't aware that solid state drives have a finite write cycle sounds fishy to me. It's also dumb to be writing that data to the linux kernel instead of an external drive that can be easily replaced. Also Tesla requiring to replace entire MPU's instead of just a board (and charge $2200-$5,000) seems wasteful. He does also bring up a good point, if you can't service a used tesla, it has virtually no value.. and therefore the car becomes costlier to insure because a tesla deemed not driveable has almost no value, so the insurance companies can't recover their loss.
Quoted from Darscot:Clearly an SE made a mistake and was writing to the flash memory more than they should. This is far from unusual, I've seen this kinda of thing myself many times with software
watching that screen hit the card over and over and not even being attached, I can only imagine how hard it's hit during use. I would assume every programmer has the common knowledge that memory cards have about 100,000 cycles before they go bad. If you're hitting the same sectors that often it doesn't take a genius to realize you'll hit that mark pretty quick (say 4 years). The fact that the chip is hard soldered makes it even worse. That chip should only be written to at the factory, and then every time an update comes along. Any data collecting should be done on a separate drive. But I'm also not a car designer, maybe it needs to be hard wired to ensure it's always safely connected. Maybe an SD card could shake loose during driving and cause issues. I just think it should be more serviceable.
Quoted from Darscot:I just think you need to take this stuff with a grain of salt. Rich Rebuilds like a year ago was taking apart a his Tesla with a butter knife. Now because he has a youtube channel people consider him some kind of expert and the Robin Hood of Tesla for the common man. He is entertainment and good humor but just watch how it turned out when the tried to put a Tesla battery in a Disney car and you can see how much expertise they bring to the table. This is also a very good example of why Tesla does not want amateurs messing around with their cars. Yes it looks like they uncovered a bug, all software has bugs and I'm sure Tesla will address it.
agreed.. however that guest he had on looks somewhat knowledgable of whats going on. just something for current model 3 owners to be aware of. if someday their car suddenly doesnt want to boot, and telsa service says you need a new $2k mpu, you know why. my hope is that tesla makes their cars as reliable as possible while allowing consumers access to diagnostics. if the cars are truly as lego blocks as some describe, and consumers can actually potentially service things themself, there will be a huge used aftermarket, which will only help them retain resale value.
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Quoted from SkillShot:Tesla will be fine. How do I know? Just drive one. It would take a lot for me to buy anything else.
I think the bigger issue isn't if you're a repeat buyer, but how do they get new people to buy? Seems they've saturated the market a bit. They went from not having enough cars to now they've discounted both the Model X and S. There are lots of people that will buy $35k+ vehicles, but there are only so many. There's still a big pool of people that either buy used, or don't spend more than $25k on a new car.
Quoted from scottslash:And didn't our government (our taxes) BAIL OUT the auto industry not so long ago?....
2008 the government shelled out 80 (EIGHTY) billion dollars to bail out GM and chrysler (ford took out a TARP loan which is not a bailout). GM cost the tax payers 11.3 billion dollars in the end, 7-1/2 times more than Tesla. If rplante wants to point fingers, look no futher than the same company that shuttered Detroit when they shutdown the plant.
https://www.thebalance.com/auto-industry-bailout-gm-ford-chrysler-3305670
Quoted from paynemic:A lot of evil empires will be powerless when they lose their funding from the world’s energy needs.
It won't be saudi arabia. They've taken all that oil money and re-invested into solar (lots of sun in a dessert). Now they won't be selling US electricity, but they will be selling lots of it to someone and continue to make money.
Quoted from goatdan:The thing here is that if people believe that the world is going to move to electric cars in the future, and quite frankly you should just because eventually oil will run out, then it means someone is going to push companies to do that. The companies that have pushed to convert before it's too late and they are stuck with a ton of legacy production equipment that is suddenly nearly worthless are going to be in a much better position than those who haven't.
Thought this article was interesting today:
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/automakers-urge-white-house-california-to-restart-emissions-talks?fbclid=IwAR0oL9vOsisTEaRyxCsjxcR86qGFBicALYW9BpU_OIWGw1TnHky9V2z7NFM
"Gov. Gavin Newsom in an emailed statement, said a rollback of the standards would be bad for the climate and the economy"
Every company is tired of dealing with 2 standards. the lower 49 states.. and then california (and often canada adopts the same standards as california). Also they know that electric is the future to compete with the global auto market. So if this is the case, why is congress fighting against obama's clean air act?
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/16/bob-lutz-improved-tesla-panel-gaps-are-now-world-class
“When I spied a metallic-red Model 3 in an Ann Arbor parking lot, I felt compelled to check it out.” Lutz was expecting to see evidence of the Tesla Model 3’s production hell writ large, in uneven panel gaps and imperfections in the paint work. But, when next to the car, I was stunned. Not only was the paint without any discernible flaw, but the various panels formed a body of precision that was beyond reproach. Gaps from hood to fenders, doors to frame, and all the others appeared to be perfectly even, equal side-to-side, and completely parallel. Gaps of 3.5 to 4.5mm are considered word-class. This Model 3 measured up"
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Jay Leno made an interesting statement: "“I predict a child born today probably has as much chance of driving in a gas car as people today have driving a car with a stick shift. They’ll still be around, there’s just not many of them,”
https://jalopnik.com/even-jay-leno-thinks-gasoline-cars-days-are-numbered-1837031875
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Quoted from StrangeSubset1:Tesla is showing the pick up in a bit over week
Is it really that soon? Only other electric truck even close to production (but still not yet) is rivian and it's starting at $69k. If tesla can make a pickup for less than $50k like they said they will, it ought to sell a ton. A lot of gas pickups are hitting that price range as of late.
and now ford is releasing an electric mustang that looks like a crossover suv.. im so confused.
Also this only proves that Elon is about changing the auto industry (by congratulating ford in a tweet)
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/18/cars/ford-mustang-elon-musk-tesla-trnd/index.html
Quoted from Nilroc:250,000 preorders and climbing!
I think this is partially due to the lower deposit ($100 vs $1,000 on the model 3), though in both cases it was refundable. In any case, tesla has a 20 million dollar interest free loan for 2 years. I do hope they actually sell, I like to see radical new ideas.
Quoted from crwjumper:You have to hand it to Tesla: They have built a large robust charging infrastructure across the country and around the world to help kick start the electric car evolution.
There are also several other parties who are building charging infrastructure in addition to the TESLA stations.
Forgive my ignorance on EV charging.. but I'm assuming not every tesla has lifetime charging (not even talk supercharging, just free charging). And I'm pretty sure all nissan leaf owners have to pay when they charge publically. Gas stations average 3 cents profit per gallon after taxes, credit card fees, etc. Would it not make sense for every gas station to install electric chargers? Even if they only make 3 cents per kwatt, once the infrastructure is installed it's free money. Unlike gas, charging stations can run 24/7 without attendants.
Quoted from JoshPA:The thing is you only need to charge in a public place when on a long road trip. Locals won’t need to use it.
I still think you're going to have the occasional person who forgot to charge overnight, hop in the car, and 5 miles down the road they realize they didn't charge and need to top off a little bit. Or maybe you're going out to lunch and you decide to put your car on charge and walk over to the restaurant next door. Or maybe you're thrifty and you bought a used leaf with only 50% battery capacity and the only way for you to make it home is to top it off on the way.
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Quoted from Brijam:I have been driving the same Tesla for over 7 years. Every day. I drive it HARD. Brutally hard. It's bulletproof. It's an astonishing, mind-blowingly sweet ride that never gets old. I gun it and it still makes me smile. It is an amazing vehicle.
when cars are engineered truly good, they should. On sort of a related note, I came across this video of a lexus LS400 that put on a million miles, and the valve covers have never been removed from the engine (IE never "rebuilt"). 9 timing belts and 3 transmission rebuilds.
I'd imagine so long as a tesla doesn't get totalled in an accident, it'll just run forever so long as it has battery power.
Quoted from phil-lee:Despite solar the primary source of electricity for electric vehicles will come from nuclear power plants. The first waste from nuclear production /experimentation is still here, as is all nuclear waste ever produced. It will stay around,and hazardous, for 85000 years. There is no "Disposal" method, nowhere to put it, nobody wants it.
Electricity produced by nuclear power is not Green. You do nothing to help the Planet by using electric vehicles unless 100% of recharging is performed using solar, wind, an impossible task unless your trips are confined to a small area.
The psychological benefits are immense though, as it makes one feel good.
Our government (particularly the one in charge) is choosing where our power comes from, not the power companies. There are nations in europe that are either 100% solar/wind driven, or getting real close. Think about where your gas comes from. We use diesel (or that awful nuclear stuff) to drive giant ships across the ocean to transport crude oil to processing plants. Those plants use electricity to convert oil to gasoline.. Then trucks once again have to use more gasoline to transport that fuel to local gas stations (that use electricity to power all the lights / fridges inside the snack bar because that's the only way to make money because there's not enough money to be made off fuel unless you're the tax collector).
OR! get this, you could simply have electric fillup stations that charge a small fee (like Com-ed does) that transport electricity (all automated, and pretty efficiently) or you could have stations completely off the grid using solar and wind turbines.
Quoted from MrBally:Maybe it was bad clearcoat on the panels.
or maybe because it was California (where it's notorious to find many unlicensed contractors that don't know what they're doing) that something wasn't connected within code.
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https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-hardware-3-frightens-toyota-vw-model-3-teardown"
"an engineer who works at a major Japanese automaker noted there was just no way for other carmakers to match Tesla’s level of tech. “We cannot do it,” the engineer admitted."
Quoted from BrewersArcade:This graph isn't accurate. They are including plug-in hybrid vehicles like the Volt and plug in Fusion etc. The first true EV is the Ford Mach E and it isn't even out yet. A plug in hybrid is nothing more than a typical gas car with transmission, exhaust, gas tank and a tiny on board battery that nets you 40-50 EV miles.
semi-true.. they ARE including plug-ins, but I would also assume they included fully EV vehicles like the nissan leaf, bmw i3, chevy bolt, toyota rav4 EV... and yet they still beat every car manufacturer
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Quoted from Pinless:There’s almost 2 million Lexus and Toyota’s included in a fuel pump recall that currently has no fix
I'm guessing that recall is going to expand. There's a well known issue with the last gen scion Xb having a dashboard of lights come up, then suddenly go away.. or sometimes the car just doesn't start. My wife's started doing that at 180k miles, went away, and we dumped it at a dealership before it came back.
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goatdan I assume you still have your nissan leaf? Someone did a nice tutorial of swapping out the battery with basic tools, and he sells an adapter cable so the newer battery can still communicate to the car:
https://hackaday.com/2020/10/23/battery-swap-gives-nissan-leaf-new-lease-on-life
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Quoted from smokinhos:Where they dumping the batteries when they aren't good anymore?
They don't dump them, they are too valuable. they recycle them
Quoted from smokinhos:How's the power grid when the Govt and tesla expect everyone to have an EV in their garage
Our 70 year old grid is shit, you are right.
But also if everyone had an EV trickle charging in their garage, when the grid DOES go out everyone could have 2-3 days of backup power if the charger was setup to backfeed power like the new F150 lightning plans to.
Quoted from smokinhos:Whats the true environmental footprint of these cars
less than a gas car I assure you (even during manufacturing). An engine has hundreds of parts, all made at separate factories. A brushless motor has less than a dozen.
Quoted from smokinhos:Everyone seems to pretend that a 40k car for 10 yrs is not still 4k a year
hate to break it to you, average price of a car is $45k, and an EV is far from worthless at the end of 10 years. You forget that by the time your batteries need replacing, that same battery has dropped its price by half or third (most opt to pay the same and get better range). If you own a 2012 nissan leaf with a 20kwh battery, you can replace it with a 60kwh.
Quoted from smokinhos:That electricity is free, and that batteries from these cars just disappear after they aren't effective
depending on gas prices, it costs 1/2 to a 1/3 to charge an EV compared to gas. wait until oil becomes scarce, you'll dream about $4/gallon gas.
Quoted from smokinhos:Teslas aren't special anymore, every soccer mom and influencer has one
you're right, but thanks to tesla making EV's cool, now every company is jumping on the bandwagon and making an EV.
Quoted from the9gman:the battery packs need to be easily servicable by the consumer and a few extra bucks would make it worth while. Instead of one single pack where you have to drop the whole bottom pan of the car .....the battery pack should consist of battery modules that can easily be removed and replaced ....the cells could be in 12 ,24 or 48v banks and it really would not to hard to add coolant inlet and outlet quick connects made from metal not plastic. This would also allow for battery balancing before installation into the main pack. There is no reason to not do this other then profit motives, plus recycling and recoverey would be a lot easier
That might be easier said than done because of many reasons (cost, durability, power loss from connectors). I've seen what's required to yank off that top plate, it's dozens of bolts and a curled over piece of sheet metal (and after you replace whatever cells, you have to silicone that crap out of it putting it back on to make sure water can't get in). But yes, even if they split it up into say 4 pieces, it would be far easier to service and less cost. I think most could swallow a $4-6k pill vs $22k. The other issue that seems to pop up is that when someone does decide to replace the whole pack, Tesla doesn't even let you keep the old battery because they don't want parts getting sold to fix other teslas.
1 year later
Quoted from cliff_clavin:I would wait until the new 2024 model 3 performance is released. Specs have not yet been released but there are rumours that it will be a sub 3 second car in the 0-60......Incredible performance given the cost.....
Tesla's are far from perfect but if they fit your lifestyle, they are a blast to drive.....
Updates aren't going to be free, depends on how badly you want performance.
I find it interesting that Tesla has struggled to meet that promised $35k pricetag since it was released (inflation and supply chain issues drove up the cost even more), but now almost 7 years later you can buy one at $35k (technically $31,250 after the tax rebate). What changed? Did the new 4680 cells eliminate that much cost? Is Tesla closing out the model3 so they can make room for the new version?
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