If my opinion causes you to suffer, then my apologies. Have a good day.

Not wading into the back and forth, but... hunh? What do you mean?

I know a few places that had slower service which they have seemed to figure out. I had an issue with mine that was fixed and it was the best experience I've ever had - they came to my house, fixed the car in the driveway. All within a week of the report. They called me back to ask how it was working. They left me a thank you card for "letting" them service my car.

I'm one of the only 3 owners I have heard of with an issue. I have heard of S owners having more issues, specifically with door handles. The S isn't in the Camry market.

The panel gap thing was WAAAAAAAAAAAAY overblown, something that I have heard almost nothing about in real life, just in a lot of "Oh noez, Tesla is dead" articles. I haven't heard of many issues with the 3 at all from anyone who bought them, and thanks in no small part to those articles, I think we're all much more careful about inspecting the cars for things like this (I never checked an earlier car for "panel gaps". I did with my 3.) Reliability is what they are focusing on.

Random interesting thing too, Kelley Blue Book just stated that after 36 months, a Model 3 would retain 69.3% of it's value. After 60, they think it will be 48.7% - https://www.kbb.com/new-cars/best-resale-value-awards/best-resale-electric-vehicle/

It's weird, because I don't get how KBB rates their top 10, but the 36 month resale rate places it at the #2 best at retaining value. The 60 month puts it around #11. What is also interesting is that none of the top 10 cars include a rebate from the government, where the 3 does. The perception of reliability must be okay to retain that much of a resale value.

By comparison, a Camry is at 48.6% of it's new value after 36 months (without a giant rebate!) and 36.2% after 60. https://www.kbb.com/new-cars/best-resale-value-awards/best-resale-mid-size-car/

Using quick math, a $51,000 Model 3 will sell for $35,343 in three years. The buyer would also get a $3750 tax rebate, for an actual loss on the vehicle of $11,907. A Camry, using the low end of $24,765 for one, would sell for $12,036 after three years. A loss in value of $12,729.

That's insane. (I just did that math for the first time.)

I’m not sure what you mean by being in ‘circles’ but you’re not the only one here who’s driven a Ferrari. It seems to me that you are equivocating and making an appeal to authority here.

I am indeed fond of empirical data

I realize you are equivocating here again but I have to point out this ‘appeal to the majority’ fallacy. You claim that your friends who bought Teslas did so because Tesla was perceived to be ‘elite.’ I won’t dispute the claim; there’s no question that Tesla is a premium brand and that some people do buy them for the status that owning an expensive car conveys.

But your claim that somehow this will meaningfully dilute the brand is not supported by direct evidence in the auto industry: Mercedes and BMW have long sold compacts and subcompacts; this has not damaged their brands in the least.

Citations please. Are you talking only about the USA? I’m talking about global sales.

Oh no no no. Those won’t do at all. You’ll have to give me an example of an entrenched company striking back and retaking a lost market from a disrupting company. Because, you know, that’s what we’re talking about here. Surely you are not making the claim that Tesla is IBM and Mercedes is Gateway?

IBM lucked into a dominant role because they opened their architecture, most certainly not because of any real innovation. When they reverted to their old ways of closed architecture with the PS/2 line, they immediately lost their leadership and never regained it. Gateway took market share from IBM because they sourced cheaper components, ran leaner and accepted lower profits than IBM. But I’m not sure Gateway ever exceeded IBM’s sales, particularly since IBM so successfully pivoted into GS.

BlackBerry was not a first mover in the mobile phone market. They had the only mobile with a keyboard and decent email connectivity, but I wouldn’t call that first mover. But anyway they were steamrolled by Apple because Apple is THE first mover in user interface. BlackBerry failed to innovate in the face of big screens and apps. They had years before Apple really began to dominate but they couldn’t make a decent UI to save their lives.

Alta Vista was destroyed by another startup. Not relevant. Also I dispute that Alta Vista was a first mover; there was never a truly dominant search engine until Google came.

Unquestionably Microsoft has been successful, but only on the back of being a first mover in the operating system world! That enabled them to embrace and extend into many, but not all categories. So no, not everything. Adobe, for example.

I don’t think Ferrari is a fair example of the performance market. They sell cars for an order of magnitude more than Tesla, have a global retail juggernaut, a frickin theme park, and they get what, a guaranteed $100 million a year from Formula 1 even if they don’t win a single race? Which by the way gives them free access to a nearly 600 million viewer TV market to flog said retail sales. They’re also not about to sell anything even remotely as cheap as a top of the line Model S!

Also I believe you will be wrong about what the margins between a Camry and a Model 3 once Tesla gets their volumes up high enough to sell said 35k Model 3. They are driving the battery cost down lower to maintain a certain profit margin; we’ve seen the price drops to reflect this. And we already know as a fact from third party tear-downs that EVs are vastly cheaper than gas cars to build.

For the Model 3 fit/finish and quality have already been deemed by experts (and at least one high profile naysayer) as being astonishingly good. We’ll see about reliability; hard for me to imagine the 2018 Camry will have less mechanical problems or be cheaper to operate than the 2018 Model 3. I personally don’t believe an ordinary American regards dealers in a very positive light. It’s hard for me to see that changing given the dealer’s need for service revenue to survive.

https://jalopnik.com/fremont-police-replaced-an-old-dodge-charger-with-a-tes-1832059459

TESLA-COP-CAR (resized).png

Fellow pinball enthusiast... I tried to read through all this back and forth debating and it’s tough to stick with it. I think the guy who’s started this thread wasn’t going for a negative debating thread. If you like Tesla then great. If you don’t like them or believe in what their doing that’s cool too. Tesla is not a car company, they’re an energy company. Elon is much more interested in renewable energy and space than he is in electric cars alone. He does hopes other car manufacturers get onboard with electric ASAP and wants them to succeed. Probably because they’d buy batteries from him. As for opinions on his cars, batteries, space, his business dealings in general or what impact it has on the market. I guess chime away. But I think we should keep it respectful.

Guys!.... go relax and play some pinball this weekend and don’t worry so much about the topic at hand or someone saying something about you. You can say all the $hit about me you want and I’ll just ignore you and move on. More love and pinball talk and less anger and dissension amoung us pinsiders. That’s my 2 cents. I’ve attached a picture of a beautiful pinball for your vewieng pleasure and to remind you why we’re all here

F5FA8E61-990C-424C-B068-076B4C9D128C (resized).jpeg

Yeah I know, my last score is terrible! Haha.

I know there are lots of positive with tesla (cool factor, exclusive charging), but $36k ($30k after incentives) for a hyundai SUV with a 201hp motor and 258 mile range isn't bad. Tesla REALLY needs to get that $35k model3 going
https://electrek.co/2019/01/28/hyundai-kona-ev-us-pricing
hyundai_kona_EV (resized).png

I wouldn't even trade my 12-year-old 4runner for that.

Yeah but you can’t buy the Kona EV, either. We tried two weeks ago. By the way the dealer was worse than clueless, they actively misinformed us. This reinforced everything I have always been about the EV dealer experience.

We did test drive the gas-burning Kona. It has everything you’d expect from a car, but there’s f-all sexy about it. Downright boring car. The Kona EV, if it even releases this year, and if you can get one, will be every bit as dull but at least it’ll have electric torque.

we rented a ICE kona over the holidays. can confirm it was a super boring car, little trunk space without folding down seats.

the ICE isn't available with adaptive cruise control but looks like they are adding it to the BEV trim at highest level, so there's a plus.

We're picking up our 2019 Subaru Forester this week. I'm not a Tesla booster but did want to stop by and mention the things that came up in our buying decision:

Fuel efficiency continues to get better. I'm replacing a 2009 Subaru Impreza sedan, which gets 21/27, with a larger 2019 SUV which gets 26/33. Obviously, burning fossil fuels is a shitty thing, so the less we can burn, the better. Considering an EV, obviously EV's win as far as environmental concerns but to get a better, safer car and to have it use significantly less fuel softens the ICE guilt.

We are a one-car family so the car has to do everything; we went with an SUV for pinball moving and maybe light towing, but also good fuel efficiency for daily driving. We are a low-low-low miles family (wife works 1 mile away, I work from home). If I were a single dude, I might not have opted for the SUV, and just rented a truck when I needed to move games. I just didn't see an EV SUV reasonably priced that has this kind of versatility.

We live in New England and get an average amount of snow, so full-time AWD is a big blessing, and it's standard on all Subarus.

This will be my third Subaru. they're super safe and reliable, and i'm very confident in repair parts sourcing and the company honoring its warantee since they'll be around in the future IMHO.

Cost is obviously a huge factor. Our SUV will be $28,000 minus the trade in. None of the EVs on the road can really touch that price, and many EVs have these small but real costs outside of MSRP (home-charger install, for instance). Maintenance and fuel are more expensive in an ICE but balance that out with the low miles and the EVs just require a lot more up-front money (which would be financed, and I hate borrowing money so the less I borrow the better). If Subaru had an EV trim level in the Forester, and say that was top of the line at $35K or $40K, then maybe we would have to really think about it.

This isn't a troll, its literally my brain's justification for continuing to go ICE. I am hoping that in 5 years time I am trading my Forester in for an electric Forester.

I don't think you need to justify anything when I don't think you can even find a new EV SUV for anywhere near $30k. You could beat yourself up a little that you are not getting a hybrid SUV but that is a personal choice not worth getting worked up about. The EV evolution is painfully slow and because of that slowness I expect my wife and I both will end up with new midsize SUVs within the next couple years that are either all gas or hybrids.

Working at home I drive so little I cannot justify paying much of a premium for newer technology. Comfort and luxury are much more important to me with a bad back.

If you open the trunk quickly and there is a lot of water pooled on it, it can spill into the trunk. The other option is just to open it slowly so there is not a wave of water and it it falls into the gap and runs around the trunk as designed. It is one of those weird things with Tesla owners, every car I have ever owned if you open a door, window or trunk and the car is covered in water and especially snow, it gets in side the car. It is a pretty big story on a Tesla though, plenty of outrage online.

Every day I drive this car, another issue pops up that screams "Designed in southern California for Californians"

Wait 'till it gets wet AND covered in snow and your doors don't open and your mirrors sound super crunchy, or your wipers get frozen because you forget to put them in service mode when you park!

Didn't mean you personally, just if you go to Tesla Motors Club or other similar online forums there is lots of these types of issues. Also lots of issues with weather. The only one that bothers me is the wipers don't stay lifted off the glass, no idea how they thought that was a good idea. Most of the issues just seem regular weather issues.

https://jalopnik.com/we-might-see-a-tesla-pickup-truck-this-summer-1832211785

This is the a thing that is more of a problem on Teslas than other cars? Serious question. My 3 gets WAY less snow in it than my Sentra did. Water too.

Admittedly, the Sentra wasn't exactly in the "luxury" class so I have no idea what I should have been expecting.

The Leaf gets way more snow in through the doors than the 3, but doesn't have trunk issues, since it's a hatch...

My opinion is in general its the same as other cars. My unscientific opinion is decent amount of Tesla customers are taking their first jump into this price point. With all the hype about Tesla and them opening up the bank account they are hyper focused on every issue in the car. Many of these issues are completely normal. Seriously if someone came up to you and said there is something wrong with my car when the trunk is open and its raining, the rain can get in; this kind of complaint is very common on Tesla forums. Another super common complaint is people are concerned the brake lights don't work under regen. First they do and there is a clear indication on the screen. What makes me laugh is people have been gearing down in standards with out brake lights since the dawn of the automobile. So many Tesla owners post concerns they are going to get rear ended. My previous car was a VW Eos it has the same style trunk and also had frameless windows so most of the complaints are completely normal for me. The only true fault that I have found and its hasn't mattered to me yet is the wipers wont stay off the glass in service mode. They only lift far enough to change them. Its nice to be able to lift them off the glass when you park and its snowing so they don't freeze to the glass. I live on the coast and park indoors but I do like to lift the wipers when I go snowboarding. Oh and don't forget about the spare tire outrage.

Heh, maybe I'm just easier than most people, but none of that stuff bothers me.

I will admit that people seem to like to get FAR closer to the back end of the 3 than my Sentra, but I chalk that up to the fact *it's slowing a lot faster than they are*, where my Sentra was coasting.

I think that other cars just SEEM to be getting closer due to the high window in the back that blocks the view of their cars.

goatdan (or others who own a tesla) -- how has the car been overall with the recent temps? Have you noticed any large differences, mainly charging and efficiency of the batter, while it's been around -20?

How does running the heater affect it? Is that 230 miles including running the heater at a comfortable cabin temperature?

Depends on how far you're driving. I'm brutal with the car, as I only drive about 10 miles a day and am burning off 20+ miles of range. But I like it comfortable at 69, run my seat heater, and preheat for an hour +. Melts the snow on the glass. If i know I'm going to be an hour or less somewhere I'll leave the heat on too. I think if you're taking longer trips, or highway driving, the loss will taper off. But, you know, if I was running a cold gas engine like that, I'd be dumping fuel just the same.

If you were super worried about range, you could cycle the heat manually and rely on the seat heaters to pick up some miles.

Range is funny in the cold, the car itself doesn't seem to lose any efficiency. I should preface that my temperature change is from mid 20c to down just above 0. I can still get almost the same range. My wife on the other hand doesn't get anywhere near what I get. Its all about the heater, if you set the cabin to the low to mid 20s expect to lose 30-40% of your range. If you like me and comfortable driving an air cooled VW, all I had to do to maintain my summer range is put my Aero covers back on. I'm not anywhere near -20 though.

With no lack of heat or anything like that, Im running around 70% efficiency around town, and around 75-80% on longer trips.

My worst was yesterday in -1 degree weather I got around 44% efficiency on three drives amounting to about 18.5 miles. These trips, however, included blasting the heat and starting with the cabin unheated meaning I also never got regenerative braking on them which was weird, and they had a lot of start and stop driving.

I use an App called Teslafi to monitor the car which takes up some battery life but gives a ridiculously detailed breakdown.

It's also worth noting our Leaf loses 25% charge at highway speeds in perfect weather. Gas cars also lose range, but unless you're calculating milage it's hard to tell.

For charging, I have only been charging on a trickle charger since November (it's a pain to swap places with the Leaf) and it has slowed, but not a crazy amount - partially because I was purposely driving less because it was freaking cold. I was getting about 3 miles of charge per hour during the -20 times. I've heard of some getting worse. I assume that takes my average cost per mile right now up to like 5 cents from the usual 3.5.

Overall, not a problem. And it handles incredibly on the snow.

Tesla just acquired Maxwell ultracapacitors for 200 million in stock options:
https://electrek.co/2019/02/04/tesla-acquires-ultracapacitor-battery-manufacturer

If claims are true, this doubles the capacity, greatly speeds up charge time, and reduces cost by 10-20%.

Tesla buying into the solid state battery technology. The EV market will really take off if solid state battery tech happens. It would probably simplify the materials acquisition, lower costs, lower the chance of fires, lower charging time, and increase the mileage/range significantly.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4094313-maxwell-technologies-battery-race-toyota

There's one more advantage of using a capacitor over a battery, cycles. Lithium-ion typically has between 500-1000 charge cycles before it starts deteriorating (IE instead of getting 100% capacity, it starts dropping the max charge cycle). Super capacitors typically have a million cycle lifespan. Imagine buying a car (with a brushless motor where the only thing that can really wear is the shaft itself) and also a power cell that will easily outlast the car. First company do implement this is going to have a HUGE advantage in the EV market.

Elon Musk's jet flights 2018 With Pinball Effects:

Is that a two cylinder hyundai little shitbox? The driver is probably lucky the engine was not in their lap.
Glad you are ok.

Doesn’t look bad at all. Glad you’re safe.

Audi and Porsche finally got their hands on a model 3 to take apart and reverse engineer. It made them rethink their EV plans.

https://electrek.co/2019/02/09/tesla-model-3-cost-surprise-porsche-audi-reverse-engineering/

plus the Kona EV might be a good pin hauler, I know the model X can tow 5000 lbs

Bets on the e-tron not coming out in Q2 of this year?

Well to be fair, that little car had a significant mass disadvantage and crumpled by design for occupant safety. Probably cost a fair penny less than the Telsa too.