I really hope Porsche fields an awesome electric car. This one doesn't look like the 'one' but it's a good start from them.

It'd be tough for me to buy a Porsche, though. My sister owned two of them - brand new - and she got soaked every time something went wrong. Every. Time. Thousands every time. She'll never have another.

WRT the marketplace their complete lack of a supercharger network makes it a tough sell for a daily driver or a touring car, so they'll be forced to sell to the uninformed weekend short range driver type of buyer.

it's funny how as a kid you dream of owning an exotic car, then you read how horribly unreliable most of them are (outside of all of the very expensive maintenance). 8 year old boxters are on craigslist of every city for $6k because nobody wants to spend the $3k to replace the engine bearings that fail on at least half of them. Same can be said for bmw's. Had a friend that decided to take a chance on a $3k used bmw, 6 months later the engine block cracked in half.

My solution for the BMW engine problem

IMG_2993 (resized).JPG

Chevy crate motor? How many HP and in which bmw series?

E36 M3 with a 416 stroker LS3 and T56 trans. Made 530 to the wheels.

IMG_1168 (resized).JPG

If their pickup truck is as game changing as the model S, then ford might even loose some of those f150 sales.

The photo I saw looked more like an old Camino. If that is true I doubt Ford has to worry too much. Now if they make a real truck or (please!) full-sized SUV, watch out!

Any photo you saw is just speculation. They haven’t released any designs yet.

That’s good to know as I was underwhelmed.

https://jalopnik.com/watch-this-tesla-model-x-pull-a-semi-truck-up-a-snowy-h-1821815962

Here in the US the E36 models had a very serious issue with a pump impeller exploding and causing all sorts of trouble. I think the E46 had a similar issue as well.

I posted this on a Tesla forum as well, but I thought some of you might find my adventure Monday night interesting:

Man, this car is impressive.

This is the story of my first time experiencing "range anxiety". I've had the car for a year and a half, but I charge it at home, and what long trips I have taken have all been along major highways with plenty of superchargers around. I've spent zero seconds worrying about where to get juice -- until last night, driving home from a ski resort.

I spent the morning two days ago around home running errands. Then I drove to my parents place for a visit, and came back home before leaving for the ski trip. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to fully charge the car after driving around much of the day. The battery was up to maybe 75% or so when I left. It's a 2-hour trip, about 100 miles from Bristow, VA, to Ski Liberty, and there aren't any superchargers along that particular route, and I didn't charge it while I was up there either.

I spent the night in a cabin and skied all the next day. Perfect day on the slopes! BRUTALLY cold, though. Well under freezing. And it was snowing. When I got back to my car to drive home, the nav informed me that it estimated I would arrive home with just 7% of my charge remaining. It suggested I detour to the Gaithersburg supercharger -- adding at least an hour to my 2-hour trip.

Nahhh, I got this .... right? Probably?

The car and battery were freezing cold -- i had no regen for at least the first thirty miles. There was precipitation, too -- snow which later turned to sleet. The roads were sloppy. Also, it was dark, so I had to use my headlights, too. Everything I'd read about range said those were all battery drainers. Would that 7% of wiggle room be enough to get me home? Would I have to inch my way home well below the speed limit in order to make it? I put the car in "chill" mode for the first time ever (i live in Ludicrous), turned on Range Mode, and decided to find out.

My plan was to simply drive the speed limit, not one MPH more ... I am normally a speed limit +9mph person, but given the wintery conditions, i figured it was justifiable, although clearly a number of people stuck behind me on single-lane sections of Rt. 15 disagreed! (I do sympathize ... on the way up, I was passing people like mad on that road) I was pretty careful not to make any sudden accelerations, and I kept my speed extremely consistent, but I was never under (or over) the speed limit.

I kept the climate control on for most of the trip. I turned it off for part of the way, but it didn't seem to make any measurable difference on my battery reserves, so I turned it back on.

The point of the trip that was most worrisome was when I was about halfway home and my expected charge at destination suddenly dropped from 7% to 3% for no apparent reason! I kind of panicked, until I realized the nav for some reason changed my route to a significantly longer one, maybe because of some perceived traffic jam (that never materialized). I just stayed on 15 instead of following its new route plan, and once it realized I wasn't going to leave my original route, my estimated charge level at destination jumped back up to 7% again.

And when I pulled into my garage at home, my charge remaining was .... 7%! Its initial estimate was spot on.

So, to sum up ... despite sub-freezing temperatures, no regen for part of the trip, snow, sleet, rain, full use of headlights, and climate control set to 70 degrees, it still covered 100 miles at exactly the consumption rate the car predicted.

Consider me impressed. Thank you, range mode and chill mode! Ludicrous is happily re-engaged, but I'm glad those modes are there when I need them!

I think these cars predict the future

Check final assembly plant. Most cars in Europe are assembled in Germany (duaaahh), while a lot of the US cars had final assembly in South Africa. Quite a few US cars are now actually built in the US, but that has only been that way for a couple years.

And yes, I am German and love my German cars. Life in the US now, but enjoy the A-bahn every time I am back (like right now).

My 08 M3 had a throttle actuator issue costs $2k for one car has two I was able to negotiate down to $1700 at the dealership. This is a very common issue with this engine most people say they fail just before or just after the warranty expires. My car was never driven hard. I think BMW should goodwill the part if it’s such a known fault.

My friend had the same car but a later year when his engine stopped working for unknown reason, under warranty thank goodness they had to replace the entire engine which would have been $20K+ if not under warranty.

The repair cost for the DCT transmission is $14K supposedly they can’t repair the transmission they need to replace the whole thing.

I’ll never buy another BMW.

I do know some with other BMWs that have been trouble free so it’s not all are bad, but I’ve owned two BMWs and they were the least reliable cars I’ve ever owned.

This guy is saying new battery technology will allow for a 700 mile charge in one minute by around 2020:

https://finance.yahoo.com/video/battery-technology-allows-700-mile-160435740.html

If that comes to fruition and the battery technology can be sourced in huge volumes then surely it will mean the end of gas vehicles much much sooner than we would have thought.

yeah pretty much every month there is a claimed revolutionary new breakthrough in battery development. i mean it's a constant stream of promises. here is Elon's typical response:

“My top advice really for anyone who says they’ve got some breakthrough battery technology is please send us a sample cell, okay. Don’t send us PowerPoint, okay, just send us one cell that works with all appropriate caveats, that would be great. That sorts out the nonsense and the claims that aren’t actually true.”

As an engineer I definitely think what we are presently using in Lithium batteries is just the early research and development stage. Within 20 years we will likely look back and laugh at these present Lithium batteries that are bulky and catch fire if damaged. There is enough money and motivation coming from different researchers and companies that a breakthrough is more likely than not.

"Range anxiety" my first time also recently. Cutting it close, earlier battery estimate was accurate when I got home. 100D.

I received my configuration invite back on January 4. Looking forward to getting my M3 in less than 4 weeks from now!!!

The funny thing is, my buddy is in on a TNA since Day 1, and me on the M3 since Day 1 of reservations. We have an ongoing "bet" to see who gets their new toy first. Looks like I may be #winning unless Spooky comes through with some last inning heroics

That CEO Fisker is in a difficult place. In order to get attention on his product he has to make these outrageous claims.

I don't think claims like this help accelerate EV adoption.

First, physics. You would need a fusion reactor in your garage to provide the power to charge 700 miles in one minute. Even if his battery can be charged that fast, the infrastructure cost to make that possible is out of reach.

Second, 700 mile range in less than two years is unlikely. 500 mile range is already pushing the limits, going purely on past capacity improvements over the last decade. But I guess he can't say that because the new Tesla Roadster will do 500 in 2020.

I figure this is somewhere in the Tesla menus too, but in our Leaf there is a menu that shows you just how much each part of the system is using. Headlights shouldn't use anything you can notice, they are probably something like 20w. It's fascinating to me regen wasn't working for you. It works for us in the cold, although I don't know exactly how good.

And honestly, this is really good information to have. The Leaf, with it's non thermal managed battery, loses about 10-20% of it's abilities in the freezing cold we've had up here in Wisconsin. Add another 10-15% for the heating system, and we were getting almost exactly 2/3rds of our charge during 0 degree weather. It still leaves us within range, but it's a bit more frustrating since the car doesn't have a ton of range to begin with.

I also noticed when it is zero degrees out and you try gunning it, for the first couple times until the battery warms up it is a bit slower. I figured that out when I was at a stop light and accelerated full and realized the gas SUV next to me almost kept up. A few stops later, I had my power back.

In other news, the local Nissan dealership called me yesterday because my Leaf hadn't been serviced there for a while to offer me a free oil change.

yeah, i figured. i have had people ask me if the headlights reduce range, though, so i thought i'd mention it.

brake regen is disabled when the battery is below a certain temperature, because charging a freezing cold battery can damage it. the amount of regen the battery accepts ramps up as the battery warms. that's normal behavior any time it's cold.

haha!

Thanks for the laugh!

Interesting! Now, I know nothing about actually driving Teslas (yet), so I'm curious...

Doesn't the thermal management of the batteries always keep them at a certain temperature for this sort of purpose? Or am I mistaken about what that does. I know the Leaf has none of that, and also was happy to allow me to regen in below zero temperature recently. The only time it doesn't do the regen thing is when it is full and we roll down the hill we live on to the the stop signs, which always gives me a bit of a surprise. A couple blocks away, and regen kicks in.

I'm heading to Cali in a couple weeks, hoping to run into a Model 3 in person when I'm there! Does anyone know, I was hoping to drive by the design studios on my way back to the airport, is there anything to see there?

It didn't even strike me until I was typing my above response! They called because they had some new vehicle they wanted me to test drive, and they said they wanted to offer me a free oil change. He asked if we still had the Nissan, and I said we have a Leaf and Sentra, and he said that they only had the record of the Leaf, and it didn't apply to the Sentra because it was too old.

I asked if they had a new Leaf to test drive and told them that without long distance infrastructure, I wasn't really interested in it but would give it a test drive and he said no, but offered me some other stuff to which I told him I'll never buy another gas car again, which was apparently flabbergasting to him.

And yeah, as I posted the above, it struck me. He called to offer me an oil change on the Leaf.

Recently spent a week in California, lots of older and newer model S's, and the suv, no sighting of the model 3.

Drove my Chevy Bolt to Indianapolis today, and noticed the car in front of me had a custom license plate: " LOL GAS "

It was a Tesla.

They are having a real hard time building the model 3. I am hearing only 125 cars a month lately.

No, you are out of date.

The last update from Elon at the end of 2017 said that at the last week of the year they were on pace to do 1,000 per week. They now project 2,500 per week by the end of Q1, then 5k per week by the end of Q2.

I know my company would be thrilled if they start hitting those volumns. I can find out what they built last week and let you know.

That would be interesting - how would you find out?

https://jalopnik.com/maybe-its-not-as-hard-as-we-thought-to-solve-the-electr-1821934370

I've been arguing this for a while. With home charging taking care of damn near all the charging you actually need, you DO NOT need a million charging stations like the public seems to think. You just need enough here and there.

Tesla basically has a full network already done. They just need to expand it now, but they don't need tons more.

Some destination chargers would be nice and is where things are moving so people that don't have charging capacity in their apartment or whatever can charge when they are getting groceries. Especially with the cold snap, the Leaf would be impossible in a situation without charging at home (and honestly, fast charging has been more important than I expected in the winter as we wouldn't be able to use it most nights otherwise), but a bit of a longer range and there would be no issues...

My ownership experience is only a couple months but very different than this. I charge to 90% nightly and live in ludicrous but don’t drive like a bat out of hell most of the time. I’m definitely not gentle and run about 80 or more on the interstate and will punch it if I’m the First at a red light. That is just too much fun to turn down. I consistently use 30% more battery “estimated miles” vs actual miles driven. I wish the car would take this into account somehow. I’ve not done any driving that is non local and do have a little range anxiety about doing so because of this experience. I feel like if I saw a 150 estimated range but only had to go 100 miles I’d be sweating it a little.

Hard part is testing a theory like that could end up with me stranded. So far that is my biggest beef with the car but my vehicle is more for local driving anyhow so it doesn’t bother me too much.
Your story does make me think I might try out chill mode and conservative driving just to see how much difference it makes with range predictions. My guess is my issue is more about how I drive than anything else but it would be nice to have a better understanding on this.

My friend has a Tesla S was saying his range is almost cut in half in the bitter cold we were at 8-14 degrees for around 10 days. He was probably overstating the loss but I don’t doubt that it’s extremely noticeable.

He’s got the 260 mike range I believe.

Here’s one guys experience with sub zero temps said loss of ~40% of range.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery-range-sub-zero-snowy-conditions/amp/

they are ramping up slower than predicted. but that number is not correct.

correct.

this is how i drive as well -- it is such a tempting car! which is why i had no idea if it would meet its projected range or not if i drove like a law-abiding citizen. i'm happy it was able to, even under adverse conditions.

well, i think i pretty much proved if you've got 100 miles of range left, and 110 miles to go, you will make it if you simply drive the speed limit and avoid speeding up and slowing down much. my projected destination charge level at the start of trip was pretty much spot on. if it had been warm and dry, i would have beaten the range estimates easily.

yeah, i agree. turn on "range mode" too. that supposedly gives you an extra 6% or so. but mainly, going slow makes a big difference. i noticed big differences in energy usage between 65mph, 55mph and 45mph. a second gear would probably be amazing for range in this car. ideal speed for max range is 25 mph, so one nice thing is if it ever looks like you are falling short, you can always just decrease your speed. one person drove their Model S 100D 650 miles on a single charge at 25mph, so you can basically double your range by driving slow if it comes to that.

yeah my range definitely goes down in the cold, although not sure by how much. the point of my story was even with the freezing temps and slippery roads, i was able to make its rated range simply by using chill mode, range mode, driving the speed limit, and accelerating and decelerating gradually.

I’m sure it also makes sense if you drive a shorter trips you’ll lose out because you have to heat the cold car but once it’s heated you don’t need as much power to keep it heated.

One of the side effects of an ICE engine is free heat, also in super cold my little four cylinder car is extra peppy thanks to the denser air intake.

You get a cold air intake! you get a cold air intake! EVERYONE GETS A COLD AIR INTAKE! +7hp

Oprah-You-Get-A (resized).jpg

The flip side of this is you get instant heat in the electric car. My old Sentra takes fifteen minutes in zero degree temperatures to warm up. The Leaf is there immediately.

Any of you current owners know, do Teslas have resistance heating? The Leaf has an air pump, which is pretty awesome at heating.

VolunteerPin, for your particular situation, it may be worse because of the city driving actually. The Leaf loses a decent amount the faster we go with it to overcome air resistance, and I've been disappointed by how quickly it's range drops on the freeway in summer...

... But in winter, since the heating system is taking up a certain amount, the range stays almost exactly what the range states on the freeway, while slower local driving burns more heat power and drops the same or even a bit quicker.

Since I'm hyper number based, the Leaf dropped by an average of 35.7% of its range when it was crazy cold out. We do tend to drive it in not sport mode more often than sport mode, but depending on habits I could see it being worse or better in any battery car in the winter. Unlike the Teslas, with no thermal management, I can't account for my loss at all and make it less. Turning off the heat saves almost exactly half that, but then... Brrrrrrr.

The Tesla has a heat exchanger and a resistance heater. the latter only kicks in when temps are very low.

I've done a number of trips in my Model S P85 over 1,000 miles. The car has never been off on it's prediction. I have no range anxiety now.

I ran my battery down to zero -once- just to see what it was like. My destination was Mt. Shasta before the supercharger network was there. I knew I was ten miles from the charger, so I kept speeding up so I would reach my destination on empty. The car has extra mileage below zero, BTW. Somewhere around 15 miles IIRC. It isn't good for the battery, so I never did it again.

Your range estimate does adjust to your driving style, to a degree it takes terrain into account as well. The only thing you have to watch out for is speeding in a heavy headwind. Twice I've had to reduce speed from 75-80 down to 60-65 for a few miles because of that - once from Vegas to LA, and another time from SF to LA.

Daily commute today done on chill mode and at the speed limit (which was boring! if I drove like this all the time, might as well upgrade to a Camry, lol) and drove 37 miles. Only "lost" 41 miles on the estimated range so obviously my driving style is very much a culprit on the range prediction.

(This is using the little range finder next the the battery symbol on the dash...if I pull up the energy chart on the main screen that does always seem to show less anticipated range and is possibly more accurate. Can someone shed light on the difference between these two readings?)

under "settings", there is a switch to change your instrument cluster range between "rated range" and "ideal range". which do you have it set to?

rated range is the EPA-tested range of the vehicle. "ideal range" is if you drove 55mph on a flat road in warm weather. it's pretty unrealistic.

meanwhile, the energy app on the main display shows your projected range. If you have a destination entered in the nav, the nav app and energy app use the projected range, and take into account things like your driving style, elevation, and traffic.

Don’t know if it’s been discussed, at least I’d like to recap from you guys.

Scenario:
-can afford S or 3
-if get S that’s more money obviously
-don’t need a lot of room for family because usually travel with wife’s SUV or can get by with a midsize car for certain trips
-80% will be just myself driving
- would get a more loaded 3

advantage of S
- more room, better power, maybe size gives it more secure ride on HW. Better interior (center display) more comfortable.

advantage 3
- quite a bit cheaper, smaller less weigh may be more fun to drive?

Unsure: the 3 is newer does it have any new better technology or better manufacturing such that it is lighter weight for given range (I mean lighter not just because it’s smaller but lighter because it was built lighter).

Highest listed weight
Tesla 3 3800lbs
Tesla S 4900lbs

S weighs 25-30% heavier than the Tesla 3.

Tesla S weighs more than a typical 3 row SUV, I know it doesn’t feel it but I’m wondering if in 3-5 years we’ll be seeing typical EV with less of a weight penalty. Example the Tesla 3 doesn’t weigh a lot more than a BMW 3 series.

~1100 lbs is the difference between a BMW 3 series and a BMW 7 series.

Another advantage for the S is you can get it right away.

Other than that, I'm really not sure. Tough decision. You nailed all the major differences.

The S is definitely nicer, but the 3 probably has fundamental improvements, being Tesla's third self-manufactured vehicle instead of their first. then again, the tech in the S is more proven and mature ...

Sorry, i'm useless!

This is the most important factor if money is no option. A model 3 will take months to get delivered (probably over a year) because Tesla has more orders then they need for the 3.

I thought that I saw a pic of someone transport a pin in a model s. Might help sway the decision.

Time is not my concern, I’ve got a fully paid for Subaru Legacy. I don’t love it but it’s got a certain charm, it’s also something of a penance for me owning my BMW M3. I lost too much money on that car that I’m ok driving a clunker (not really a clunker) but a cheap car that doesn’t cost me a penny. So anyhoo I’ll wait 10-20 months doesn’t matter.

However better point would be getting an S can get tax rebate but that doesn’t offset the extra $30K upgrade to the S, could also get a used S that’s closer to the price of the 3. So I’m looking at factors besides the cost.

It’s possible for me to get Tesla 3 and have enough to buy an older S2000 or some other weekend car.