Holy shit. Did you just get bumped up from November to September? Price is a bit steep for sure though.
I guess their 48k wasn't even correct.
Curious where the 1k registration fee that we put down comes into play. Shouldn,t that be applied some where? Or are they simply saying thank you for that and you won't see it back.
Also curious if you can pick up in Fremont and possibly save 1k destination, I know a friend of mine did that on his Model S. Not that that would really matterr much, but he saved 1000, and got a free tour of the factory, and enjoyed the ride back to LA (on auto pilot).

I was looking at the 3, however don't like the fact it has no gauge cluster. I was very interested but not sure yet until I drive one see how it feels on the road.

model 3 dashboard - head on view (resized).jpg

Nah ... that's a public post from one of the employees (I assume). Yeah, it get's pricey with options, but that's why they call them options... I think I'll pass initially on the autonomous driving/self driving options as they can be added later with just software. I'm in the for long range, premium, and upgraded wheels when it's my turn to do my own configuration.

Yeah. The premium is a must. I actually think that that one is the best value. Glass roof, fake leather seats, heated seats, upgraded interior, automatic mirrors, etc. Much better bang for the buck than paying a grand for a color other than black! I'll go with black and the standard wheels (actually love those 18" aero black wheels).

That's what I did.

Certainly looks good and I think people that are into Tesla cars will be all over this. The $7500 rebate is limited to just 200K total cars (all models S, X, and 3). So if you are not one of the first 6 months this will be phased out and you will pay the full list price.

Was reading another thread:

--- that most reservation holders are preparing to pay between $45,000 and $55,000, which makes sense since the bare Model 3 or nearly bare Model 3 are very rare options among the reservation holders surveyed. Most of them are looking for a battery pack upgrade from the base model, which is expected to offer 215+ miles of range, to bigger packs that could allow up to 300 miles of range.---

I just put a deposit, looking at my delivery window will be in 2019 and by then the rebates will have been used up (unless these get extended for some reason). I don't really believe in the rebates because it's giving our tax dollars for other people to buy expensive cars. But that said if it was offered to me, I would rather have the rebate than not. I am not hating on people who take the rebate but I think it's a dumb concept.

I don't know if I will buy but 2019 gives me a lot of time and it's a fully refundable deposit.

Just saying put my deposit today and the timeframe they told me was 2019 (so 2 years from now) and I will have the opportunity to see if I like it or if not can get something else. I am not heavily into the idea of EV for the sake of being an EV. But with my daily commute being 40-50 miles round trip and I usually fill up gas once a week so everyday trips will be ok but long trips would not be ideal, but my wife has a SUV so we'd use that like usual.

I like the technology, the updates to the software and the cutting edge safety etc..

It's more Accord/Camry than E-Class MB (luxury). I know the E-Class is like a $55-65K and the Tesla 3 is more like $40-55K, so it's not a straight comparison. But give away the ability to go anywhere like you can with a ICE. I know there are supercharging stations but that does not take away from the fact that an EV is still more inconvenient for a long trip.

Edit: I only brought up E-Class because it also has a lot of the autonomous driving features like the Tesla.

So how many of you will order a Y?

I'll be first to raise my hand here on that question. I purchased a 2013 Toyota RAV4 off lease a few months ago. I told my wife this is the last ICE vehicle I buy, barring investment/collector cars. The Y will replace the RAV4.

Once you drive it for a while, you might be surprised by how quickly your opinion changes. Let me put it this way - we got a Leaf (used for $7600, 84 mile range) and my wife and I like it so much more than our SUV and other gas car that my wife was trying to seriously justify taking it on a trip this week that would have e required 5 hours of charging.

I have been saying for years to buy myself a DeLorean, and this summer finally got to the threshold where I could have seriously considered it. Three days with the Leaf (the not cool, not awesome electric car) and I have no intention of ever buying a gas car again.

Oh, and to that person on the previous page doing the usual "fossil fuels are better because I saw this thing the oil industry put out", I can't seem to find it now but there is a map that compares carbon footprints and where I am in Wisconsin, I get something like the equivalent of 70 miles per "gallon" of carbon impact. And, as the grid gets cleaner, my car will emit less emissions.

That hasn't happened with my other cars.

But more than that, first, I can pay to charge my own car by putting solar on the roof... Which I did because Holy hell is that more affordable than paying the electric company for their power. And I sure as hell won't have more emission as I'm generating all that off my roof from the sun.

And second, fine - let's skip the environmental issue altogether. I have been tracking our Leaf very closely and as of today, 12 weeks in, have saved about $250 above what our SUV would have taken in gas. And I have no oil changes, transmission flushes, or much of anything to worry about there. I don't mind skipping the gas station every day, and it turns out the Leaf drives better than any other car we've owned.

Based on the reviews of the Model 3 that are out so far, it drives better than any car even close to it in the same price range. If you're going to get a decent car, I have no idea why you wouldn't check it out (unless you NEED one tomorrow...)

Been thinking about an E-Class because it's more luxurious but with similar self driving features. However knowing German luxury cars cost an arm and a leg for maintenance. Had two Bimmers and will never buy a BMW ever because of that.

I only wish Tesla was more luxurious interior and I'd prefer a gauge cluster in front of steering wheel.

The Tesla S gets big demerits for interior too it's not up to $99k car standards

E-Class IMG_3257 (resized).JPGIMG_3258 (resized).JPG

Tesla 3

IMG_3259 (resized).JPG

I know it's unfair to compare E class with Model 3 but have seen Tesla S compared to S Class and the said the Tesla S drives great but interior is just not there for a $100k sedan.

I've been driven in a S Class sedan, damn thing is a mini limo.

For the 3, at first I thought it would be weird, and then I realized that I almost never look at my instrument panel on the Leaf and often find myself glancing at the center console for information on my energy use just because I'm curious.

As for the 3 missing the other stuff like the vents, the front dash is supposed to be pulled forward giving you more space, which I'd love. The hidden vents make it seem way cooler to me anyway.

While some people have knocked the Model S for its interior, the fact it is absolutely dominant in its market segment. To me, that means something.

Oh yeah, and I should add... The Leaf may actually save me money in a different way. Since getting it, I've had basically nothing range anxiety, something I figured would happen relatively often. In fact, I drove it 77 miles away for a convention and back and getting near zero didn't phase me at all.

Because of that, I am pretty sure I'm just going to end up with a stock Model 3. I'm not positive I want the premium upgrade (although the roof thing seems cool, the windows are big and I can't imagine it's $5000 cool, the other features are Meh to me), I like black cars a lot - although the dark gray is my favorite, again I dont think it's $1000 my favorite), and the range... I've learned from the Leaf that even at 220 miles, if I drive for three hours, take a 30 minute break, and then drive for two more, that's just peachy by me.

The only reason I'm debating the battery is that when self driving get enabled, then I won't find the stops as refreshing and won't mind just driving.

What a weird, new, exciting thing to consider when getting a car.

To all owners out there now, do I understand Tesla correctly that you get a fast charger (obviously, without your house wiring) standard with it? That's a big bonus to me if so!

I think you need to pay $550 for the faster home charging cables plus installation.

reminds me a lot of this:

flip phone (resized).jpg

versus this:

iphone (resized).png

i think we know which one the market chose.

Totally false comparison, the two phones have different functionality, whereas the MB luxury car can do same/similar things as the Tesla just looks better.

If you guys want to say the MB doesn't look better that's fine but don't pretend like it's a 2007 flip phone.

More like a Rolex vs a Casio they both tell time but one is more luxurious.

Right now Tesla has the market to itself but when MB starts to make same type EV with real interior it will look like Stern vs JJP.

Before you guys jump on me and say the Tesla is just as nice interior as a MB

Please view above video and this one too. The Tesla has fit and finish in places that look like a 2000 Tercel, see center area which is just atrocious.

People buy pinball machines sight unseen, too. I'd say it says more about our love for consuming all things technology, our love of status, and less to do with our love for the environment.

But they don't. That's the thing.

I would say the MB car is sort of like a nice case for your flip phone. Sure, it looks nice and all, but...

Once you get the MB, it is what it is. It never changes.

The Tesla, once you get it, it keeps getting better. Tesla engineers figure out a way to do something better, they work on it and suddenly one morning your car has a new skill. Just as a for instance, they have revised the Ludicrous launches for be faster at least once.

A flip phone versus an iPhone is actually a perfect comparison. Once you got the flip phone, it was what it was. Never once before I got a smartphone did my phone get better as I used it. More than once with my smartphones, they have been updated. And I can pick and choose how they operate better.

If you are just looking to sit on a nice chair, or in a nice space, you will guaranteed be happier with something that isn't a Tesla. For the rest of it, a lot of people just find the drive of the electric cars to be significantly better. For me, that's what I care more about.

A lot lot of people buying are already EV deciples, meaning Tessa already has your vote. It's people like me who is agnostic about ICE or EV. Honestly I can give a hang about EV, I am only considering because has good performance, good safety, good technology etc.. I'm buying the usability ad ability not buying because it's an EV. Looks and luxury has to factor into *my* decision.

IOW if there is an ICE car that stops and goes and is safe and has great technology but looks *way better* I'll just as soon buy that because EV does have some downsides (weight etc).

I'll buy is 300+ Mile and if Tesla, if the only made the 200 mile version I may not buy it at all.

Trouble is what happens if you get to a charging station and they are occupied which could happen with so many more cars being sold by Tesla? If you need 30+ minutes of charging and what if you are in a que and need to wait another 20 minutes on top of that? I go bonkers when I need to wait 5 minutes to fill with gas so likely this will not be a long range car for me.

A flip phone does not surf the internet, can not be used for pay at stores like Apple Pay, can not take high resolution video, can not play advanced games can not watch streaming movies or be used like an iPod.

Both Tesla and MB are *cars* first and foremost both can have autonomous driving, both can have heated seats etc.

Just because Tesla has a firmware update does not make it anything more than a car. It's not like it can become a submarine for example.

If you want to defend Tesla fine but technology is not so far ahead anymore (example automatous driving) and if MB comes up with a better algorithm for its auto driving who's to say that can't be upgraded?

Just because Tesla can do firmware upgrades does that makes it a smartphone and all other cars are flip phones circa 2007. My example Rolex vs Casio is much more apt because they both tell time mutbthe casio can maybe also be a TV remote and get firmware updates while the Rolex doesn't. The Rolex is not that better at telling time than a Casio it's just more luxurious.

MB has technology Tesla doesn't have such as audio safety where if an impending crash is detected the speakers emit a pink noise that counteracts the high decibels of a crash to prevent hearing loss.

It's applied when you checkout.

100%. Packages suck, but they need to make money and they are providing a large amount of value. Win-win.

You have the capability built in. Supercharging is not free for a 3 owner, but it's still a lot cheaper than gas per mile.

Lot's of people like the Leaf, but is it possible you just love the way electric cars drive in general? I've driven a few, and they are all far superior to ICE cars in every way, not just a Leaf thing

I was hoping the AWD model would come sooner, but at the end of the day I think putting that money toward the larger battery is better in the long run. Premium, large battery, RWD all fine, I'll be taking delivery as soon as I can. My estimate is Nov 2017 - Jan 2018.

You all think you will still get the full rebate? That's a bad thing because I applied late but I don't need a car for a while, however if I knew was getting rebate I'd have registered sooner but I think I'm going to get AWD so that would have pushed me to later in 2018.

I wonder what the loss of rebates will have on Tesla.

Almost done reading the Elon Musk biography.
Obviously written by a fan, but cemented my positive view of Elon. If I were in the market for a brand new car I'd get a Model 3.
Go Tesla!

Here's a good overview, fits right with the BMW 3-Series and MB C-class. I'm impressed with the weight as the Model S (I thought) was quite heavy whereas the 3 is just a couple hundred lbs heavier than the BMW.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-31/driving-tesla-s-model-3-changes-everything

I wasn't a "EV deciple" at all, simply someone who needed a car and wanted it to be affordable. I was totally agnostic on it.

Drive one for a while and you'll see the difference. An EV doesn't have good performance and technology, it has mindblowingly better performance and technology than everything else.

I'm a convert because the driving experience on our Leaf is better than the driving experience I've ever had on another car, full stop. Admittedly, I don't go for crazy awesome cars, but I've driven others at a higher price point and would have never paid for the difference. For the EV improvement, it's worth it, at least to me.

For your first, I know the car has it, but do you get the NEMA plug that adds about 25 miles per hour? You only get a trickle charger with the Leaf, and while that is good enough for it usually, being able to plug in to the same fast charging outlet would be a bonus.

And yes, we both have fallen in love with the EV experience, no matter who the maker is. There is no way either of us will ever buy an ICE car again, and that has everything to do with much much better everything is.

Sorry for three replies in a row, my phone doesn't let me easily edit things together.

I think most people are realistic about the rebate. If it runs out and is timed right, Tesla could hit the limit in January. Then, it keeps going for the rest of that quarter and the next, meaning it wouldn't decrease until July, at which point it would go to half. It would be half for the rest of the year, and then be two quarters of half that.

I have a hunch the first halving won't matter much, and the second drop will be timed for either a price drop in the car, or an upgrade to it for the same price. They have done this with increments upgrades for the S and X in the past.

I think this car competes at 35k with no rebates with any other car at that level.

Charging wise, here is what's included:

240 volt NEMA 14-50 adapter
120 volt NEMA 5-15 adapter
J1772 public charging adapter
20 foot mobile connector with storage bag

Also, I LOVED the idea of a phone dock, but was wondering how they dealt with compatibility. Apparently, the phone dock sits in front of 2 usb ports. You plug the USB in, go through their cable management and clip a right angle iPhone or Android plug in and the phone goes right down on a platform over it all. Pretty smart. I'm guessing it comes with one iPhone and one Android, expect the cables to be about $15 from the Tesla store.

Reservation for model 3 placed today

Congrats!!

Tesla has announced they have been receiving 1800 new reservations per day. holy cow.

You might say you are not an EV decipel but you are. What do you think an EV decipel is? Do you think you think EV deciple is someone who makes goes to rallies against big oil and won't even go into a gas station to buy a lottery ticket because they hate big oil and climate change. I think those guys are off the reservation, tinfoil hats and whatnot but that is not the only people who are what I call EV deciples, there are others who just love EV cars and think they are the best thing ever.

I am not saying you are wrong, you have your own beliefs and what you like but you are a very small minority.

EV cars are not the best things on the road, if you would gander at the comparison test of the S-Class and the Tesla it shows what some car guys think and these guys drive hundreds of cars every year.

EV cars need to be paid for (in part) by government give aways. In other words left to market forces (not $7500 tax credits) then people would never buy one. The government has to pay people to consider them, or else the car maker has to sell at huge losses to get them off the lot. In fact I believe Tesla is selling cars at huge losses (the S and X) because if they priced them where they can make a profit like MB does probable 20% profit on every car then not enough people would buy.

I love the Tesla S, I have 6 co-workers who own them and one owns aa X. But they all got $7500 off sticker. They are fantastic cars.

this is my point.

You are not a car guy, you probably like A-B transportation with the least drama and heck the Leaf is probably an acceptable transportation pod. But it's not the car for most people. If it were so good why are you able to buy them second hand for a song? I see 3 year old Leaf cars for $6000. Let's face it, they are not worth much yet you say it (the Leaf) is the best driving experience you've ever had.

I am not saying your opinion is wrong just that most people would rather not drive a car that starts out with a range equal to an ICE car's range when the gas warning light comes on.

I'm sure you like it, but other people love light weight cars with handling they can attack a back road and maybe like to shift gears (etc..) I am not saying everyone but for everyone who loves a Leaf there is as many who would rather have a $6000 Miata even thought it's not an ideal transportation pod. They love driving character and other aspects than just a quite ride that can go from one place to another without getting you wet.

I drove S2000 and BMW M3 in fact had the M3 at the same time as Tesla S was shipping, I could have gone with the Tesla S it would have been not much more money but in fact *I* love the ICE car and think it has some advantages (might be character or whatever) but ICE cars are not prehistoric dinosaurs like some EV people like to think.

didn't want to make too long a post so this is part 2.

I have been looking into the Model 3 and really love it for a number of reasons.

There is the base car (no options) which is $35K less range and there is the big battery with lots of options and self driving or semi automatous and luxury etc.. that is $55K (or more)

So it's not as if you can spend $35K and you get the same car as someone who spends $55K. Much like you can get a Tesla S for $79K or $150K same basic car but a big gap due to features and performance.

The base does not have all the self driving aids.

I was looking at cars in the size and price the closest one is the BMW 3 which is the same size, same interior room (or similar) similar weight has a 4cylinder turbo and is around the same quickness and costs around the same maybe the BMW is a few thousand more.

This doesn't factor in the big rebate of $7500 which makes the Tesla 3 stand out in that you get similar car but Uncle Sam pays you money to buy it.

Once the subsidy goes away (And by then BMW will be able to produce an EV with their own $7500 subsidy the tables will be turned). But that's not today. Today the Tesla 3 is better and in fact you can get a $45K Tesla then factor in the rebate would be the same price as a lower optioned BMW.

I was looking at was self driving or semi automatous driving and the base Tesla buyers the Joe 6-pack that just wants a cheap car will likely be not getting all the bells and whistles. Tesla is charging $1K extra for a different paint color and $5-9K for the driving aids and the semi automatous self driving aids and $5K for luxury items and I know a lot of folks are probably not going to spend money to get a full tilt Tesla 3 (which can exceed $55K), that's a whole different zip code than the $35K car.

MB E-class probably has the closest to Tesla in semi automatous driving and from what I've read it's getting there but it's really not that good. The new version that is being worked on for release is better but not out yet.

But the good thing about Tesla is that they will upgrade you. So while their system is the best now, maybe in 2 years MB system will be as good or better, but the point is in 2 years Tesla system will be better too and it will be upgraded.

So if you are interested in Semi automatous function, right now the E-Class is not as good and that is a much more expensive car anyway and with a worse auto pilot. So the BMW 3 series while it compares to the base Tesla 3 in many ways it does not come close to the upper level cars due to the auto pilot function.

I think auto pilot is Tesla's ace in the hole. I think people like me can afford to buy anything. I can buy a MB E-class with every option but it still won't have as good auto pilot as the Tesla, I see the great value in the Tesla 3 (even if the rebate is phased out) I am opting for the big battery, twin engine with luxury package and the auto pilot.

I like the technology and with the larger battery and the twin engine the car will be a beast and can stand against the best luxury cars in it's size.

But I am not one who really cares about buying a EV car because it saves the polar bears. I am buying because it's a tour de force in technology, it looks great and has great safety and performance and self driving down the road and a decent price. Plus less to break and need repaired on the Tesla vs a luxury ICE car.

You can't put some of Tesla's best assets on paper, and you can't compare them to other cars. When a reviewer gets in a model 3 and says it feels like a Tesla, that's a big deal. When you get in the car and that all glass roof makes you feel great because of how open the car feels, or the fact that an EV's max torque is at 1MPH... The list goes on.

While Tesla favors well against competitors on paper, it absolutely blows them out of the water with all the intangibles.

Autopilot, tech, UI, frunk, adjustable steering modes... So many advantages to a BMW or Mercedes ICE car.

Just found out my BIL is in on one and is expecting it in 2018. He is an endodontist, so basically he has a machine for printing money. He said he likes the 3 because he wouldn't waste 100K on a daily driver car, but likes the idea of electric power. The man has an awesome boat, so I believe his priorities are straight.

It's totally cool if you think an MB interior is better than a Model S. I and many others simply disagree. That's a matter of taste. I love my futuristic high tech spartan interior. You like walnut and lots of buttons, good for you.

To say that an MB and a Tesla 'do' the same thing inside... I don't know, man. Can you stream Groove Salad or a jillion other music streams and podcasts from the Internet in an MB? Ask it to play any song ever made? I doubt it has real time traffic on a gigantic google map, either. Those are two stand out features that I use every day, and with no monthly fee. The web browser is really useful too.

BTW MB already has all electric models. I've driven one and it sucks. They are at least five years behind Tesla.

Tesla's real advantages are the multi-billion dollar investments in their supercharger network and battery factories, and their fleet of data collecting cars for their autonomous car effort. Those are very, very large barriers to hurdle. Lots of people don't understand what that really means, including MB, Toyota, GM and Ford.

MB won't put the necessary investments into the technology until it is too late - it probably already is too late. Because that's what big companies do every time. Have a look at Kodak, Blockbuster, and Nokia to see MB's future. Tesla came from nowhere and started outselling the top MB and BMWs immediately. That was FIVE YEARS ago and nobody including MB has fielded a worthy competitor. In the meantime Tesla has increased their domination of the market. Today Tesla books more reservations of the Model 3 in a day than GM sells Bolts in an entire month.

Tesla has not been standing still, either. They have innovations they haven't made public. Tesla likes to spring big surprises. The Model 3 was always talked about as having a 200 mile range.... They said not one word that the Model 3 would have a 300 mile range -- until it was ready for purchase. Same with the supercharger network. Same with autonomous hardware in their cars for free.

People think these big companies will never lose their dominance but time and again they die or diminish the same way. MB will keep selling a dwindling number of bad ass internal combustion cars just like Nokia kept cranking non smart phones until they were made irrelevant. Like Kodak kept selling film cameras. Like Blockbuster kept renting VHS out of brick and mortars. Wang computer. Cray. Sears. Etc etc etc.

Just like smartphones we will see new players without the internal combustion shackles, dealer networks, advertising budgets and swollen executive salaries.

The ship sailed years ago.

Also announced was that the received over 63,000 cancellations! So people are dropping out as well! I just think it's the wait to get one! People get all excited and say I want one but 2+ months down the road they're dropping out!

I haven't seen the model 3 yet but the other two cars they produced are very nice! Hopefully they get their plant at full production sooner than later and start being able to fulfill orders quicker!

To clarify, 63,000 total dropouts since feb 2016. 1800 net new reservations since the event in late July. Basically they can sell as many cars as they can realistically possibly build for the next 2 or 3 years almost guaranteed.

pump the brakes dude. I think your rose colored glasses are making you light headed.

Tesla (total in all it's years of existence) has sold less than 150K cars worldwide (can you dig it?) but now you claim that Tesla came from nowhere and started outselling BM immediately.

(fake news alert!) Please cite sources.

MB sold 2.2 MILLION cars last year.

MB sold over 100K S-Class cars last year and without the help of $7500 rebate checks (and without losing money on every car it sells like Tesla does).

here are some real fact (not fake news)
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/070116/tesla-losing-money-each-time-it-sells-car-tsla.asp

Under generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP), Tesla loses $19,059 for each Model S unit it sells. Promises to deliver 100,000 vehicles by year-end 2015 fell short as Tesla sold just over 50,000 cars.

What part of the above quote leads you to believe Tesla started outselling MB and MBW immediately? MB has sold more S-Class in 18 months (just S-class) than Tesla has sold in 6+ years.

Don't tell me "well in US" because you need to tell me how it's fair for Tesla to give $7500 tax dollars to rich people who are buying $100K cars yet MB doesn't have that same luxury. And tell me what happens when the $7500 tax rebate is phased out. I know 7-8 people who one the Tesla S/X and they all bought (mainly or in part because they got a fat rebate check) one is a polar bear lover but the other just bought because Tesla is selling at a discount compared to a S-Class.

I've been in both and MB S-Class is a *true luxury car* with soft leather and wood. Tesla doesn't use real leather anymore it's some type of synthetic material and mostly plastic everywhere.

I would put Tesla luxury on par with the best Toyota say an Avalon.

Once MB (etc..) start to produce EV they will be just as good there is not much to it, just batteries and an electric engine plus software. Surely you don't think Tesla is the only company capable of making batteries and a simple electric motor? Thats like saying Apple is the only company that is capable of building a smartphone.

THAT is exactly what you are saying. If you say *only* Tesla can build an EV thats the same as saying *only* Apple can build a smart phone or like saying Perelli is the *only* company that can build a tire or IBM is the *only* company that can build a PC.

To borrow a word from Tesla that's ludicrous.

It's like Lavar Ball saying he can beat MJ in a 1 on 1 game. It's funny to hear people that are so delusional

plus MB will be getting $7500 rebates when Tesla is getting none so the table will be turned.

MB simply does not have to sell EV, they sell 2M + cars already so any EV will be fighting for table scraps EV sales are not great yet. Once people stop buying ICE cars we can talk. I'm not going to hold my breath, the only way EV will overtake ICE cars is if the governments mandate it such as the case when the polar bear lovers win.

I'm just debating and presenting facts, I think Tesla S is very fast and it drives well and I'll probably buy a 3 but I am not so much drunk in love with EV's to say they are better than normal cars.

Here's to polar bear love.

polar-bear-with-tire-2 (resized).jpg

Mockery undermines your argument, dude. Just saying. It's also toxic to a community. I'm from a beach town and I talk that way.

Wow, I thought this was common knowledge. Maybe take five seconds and search for yourself before busting out the personal attacks next time:
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/tesla-model-s-outsold-mercedesbenz-sclass-bmw-7-series-audi-a8-lexus-ls-and-porsche-pan
http://gas2.org/2016/02/15/tesla-model-s-outsells-mercedes-bmw-audi-and-porsche-in-us/
https://electrek.co/2017/05/26/tesls-model-s-leading-us-large-luxury-segment/

That is a very narrow, short term view. If you want to call investing in supercharging, battery factories and the like "losing money" go for it. Most educated people would call those things investments. Follow the money - what do you want to bet the author of that holds a short position in Tesla?

Speaking of that, shorting Tesla is working out real well, I believe shorts lost about a billion dollars in the last couple of days.

Some people prefer to buy cars that don't have dead animal skins in them, and that opinion seems to matter to Tesla more than yours. Again though, opinion. Not going to debate your opinion. We disagree.

MB etc. already do produce electric cars. I've driven them. And in my opinion they suck. Judging from how few have sold I am not alone.

I never said Apple is the only company that can build a smartphone. But since you mentioned it, they are the only company that can build a kick ass smartphone so good it can dominate an industry for a decade and put major players completely out of business. The App Store, music licensing deals and many other things led to that. Hmmmm. That sounds a lot like Tesla. A lot of smart investors think Apple should buy Tesla for the same reasons.

I don't think "Perelli" (sic) is a good example at all. Maybe you can explain what you're talking about there because it seems like a bad analogy to me. And IBM stopped making PCs years ago. What's your point?

Hey. It's not okay to attack me personally. It's against the rules of the forum, and it isn't nice. So cut it out.

That's not going to make any difference at all. People who can buy a Model S will do so regardless of the price being 80k or 88k. It doesn't matter. It's a rounding error if you can afford that kind of car.

Similarly, the rebate hasn't sold substantially more Bolts or I3s or non-Teslas, because the market doesn't want them.

But. The market wants the Model 3. It was the single greatest product launch in the history of mankind. Sure they had 63k cancellations since the launch event, but they are booking 1800 new reservations a day. With a $1,000 deposit each. The car is sold out for over a year.

That's exactly why they will fail. That's what Nokia said when they were at the top of their game. And Kodak. And Sears. And Blockbuster. Etc etc etc.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but not the above. Simply because it is not true. And apologies up front for going off topic, but I need to set facts straight.
Nokia never said they don't need to get into the touch screen phone market. I don't say smartphone, because when you look at it, who built the first smart phone....NOKIA.
There is 2 big mistakes they made, which eventually lead to the nail in the coffin.
1. They tried to develop their own Linux based IS for their phones. Maemo. Was an amazing idea, and you could get apps for it before Apple even knew what an app store would be. But being Linux, it was a bit complicated and too much of a tech guy environment to compete with apples ios. It was far more capable though.
2. Once Maemo did not take on, instead of going the Android route, they decided to pair with Microsoft. Well we know where that went. It was not Nokia's fault but rather MS not being able to push their system and get developers to develop the apps. I had a Win phone for years. And to be honest, if it would not be for the app gap, I would still have it. If you use your phone prominently for business, it is much more capable and secure than any ios or Android phone out there.

Nokia had killer hardware that was amazing. Any of their phones could hold up against Apple on the hardware side. Just look at Nokia's camera technology, always on top and leading the pack.

Funny story when Apple first started and tried to sue Nokia for patent infringement on having a touch screen phone......bad idea trying to sue a company on such a non novelty idea if that company holds a couple bundres of patents you need to use to even be able to build any cell phone. Nokia was a real gentlemen about it. Within no time they settled on a hand shake.

Absolutely. I never heard of the Maemo or I may have bought one. Sounds like a cool phone.

Your assessment that it isn't the fundamental technology but the app and music ecosystem behind it is spot on, and I think it translates well to the EV revolution. For EVs it is the supercharging ecosystem as well as owning battery production. A strong argument could also be made in user interface, too.

I think the mis-steps of Nokia are unsurprisingly similar to what the big automakers are doing and will continue to do. They look at electric cars, say "that's easy" and stay focused on their core business, fossil fuel vehicles. They make modest investments in EV tech, outsource battery production, and push out compliance vehicles because they believe they don't have to. Just like Nokia partnered with others instead of investing years before in their own tech. As you said, app stores were an obvious innovation as were touch screens. This isn't 2012 anymore. The automakers have had five full years since the Model S launched. They have delivered doggerel, exactly as predicted and will continue to do so.

Just like Nokia, the big carmakers will fail to make the massive investments in battery and charging infrastructure until it is too late. Of course, the US government will likely step in and bail US firms out as it has done multiple times in the past, (a fact very conveniently ignored by people who attack the $7,500 tax credit).

Interestingly, and happily, I don't see Stern repeating these mistakes. They appear to have taken playfield production in house and pretty quickly adopted LED lighting and LCDs.

As a previous Leaf owner, I'll make this one really simple.

People love the Tesla and dislike the Leaf for three main reasons:

* - I am speaking in terms of social stereotypes. I do NOT endorse nor do I fully believe the following points:

1. The Leaf is "weird looking" or "cute" as most women call it, and the Tesla is sleek and "mature looking". Face it, when a woman calls your car "cute", the "sexy" factor is gone really quickly. Anyone from Car and Driver is going to drop the "death brick" on a car that gets called "cute" really quickly.

2. The Leaf got 84 miles per charge, and the Tesla variants get 200+ miles per charge. The feasibility for most people to enjoy the car as a daily driver goes up dramatically when you are talking nearly a 3-fold improvement in mileage. With the Leaf, the range counter is more like a "Guess O' Meter"; it is CONSTANTLY fluctuating. From what I have seen with a Tesla, that range stays darn constant no matter what. Obviously, flooring the accelerator and other extreme situations will have an effect, but traditional "keeping with the flow of traffic" driving yields a fairly steady range distance, and people find confidence in that.

3. The Tesla is FAST. It is smoking cars at dragstrips, and THAT shit sells. In fact, as traditional as it is, that is probably the factor that is selling Tesla more than anything else. Face it, you don't want a car going 0-60 in 15 seconds that's electric; you want something that is silly fast that shows "them ol gray ICE guys that 'the future is here, and you're either on board or getting left behind'". Without a doubt, some people buying a Tesla are taking a special enjoyment out of showing die-hard gas-loving ICE car drivers that "this is the new gas, and your cars are on borrowed time". You're taking a 0-60 time that is 2.27 seconds in a 2017 Model S P100D:

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2017/2017-tesla-model-s-p100d-first-test-review/

We are talking Veyron level speeds for about 7-10% of the price. That. Shit. Sells.

For the record, I sold my Leaf as I had to PCS to Eglin, and some things just had to be let go. I am the kind of guy that pays at absolutely most $15k for a newer used car (Honda Fit for example), so the idea of ever owning a Tesla seems like a fantasy to me. I love seeing the electric technology breaking through barriers, and I don't see Tesla going away anytime soon.

I'm down for Tesla, likely get a Tesla 3 and the range is very key, I just did a 4 hr trip 230 miles in our SUV ICE. I'm far more likely to do that trip with a 300+ mile range car than a 215 mile car.

Even if I could get a Tesla supercharger on the way, I don't need/want to stop for 25-35 minutes recharge, I just want to get done.

So 300+ miles is not a must have but great to have.

I love the acceleration of Tesla but I'm at the point where I'm also interested in a 911 Porsche which is not cheap, it's every bit what any Tesla S costs but for road feel, engagement and fun sporty drive not 0-60 acceleration which the Tesla S wins hands down.

bottom line is it's what got me to pull the trigger on my P100D. it's absurd and there's no rational justification, but i'm first hand evidence it works, even on progressives like me. i mean of course i like the environmental aspects, and that helps build the case for sure, but if it were just about the environment, i would be driving a Leaf or something.