He might be talking about the terrible late 80s/early 90s cabinet with that chintzy backglass removal hinge and shitty rails. The late 90s ones seem fine, if WAY too damn big and tall.

All the other stuff whysnow is talking about..."cool titles, $$$$$ invested in sound, unique layouts"....uh, not really feeling it. The sound was terrible on all of those games compared to other manufacturers during the entire digital era, the layouts may have been "unique" but they sucked, and the titles didn't seem particularly cool to me. But I'm glad someone is enjoying these games.

The System 3 games certainly are affordable, reliable, and generally well engineered.

I've said it a million times..."uniqueness" is not a trait that = "good" in pinball. People always clamor for innovation, but when they get it, it's usually terrible.

See: Every video/pinball combo ever, goofy flipper arrangements, punchy the clown etc.

Again...I'm glad you like 'em!

This is something you dreamed and doesn't actually happen in real life.

Gottlieb certainly had a distinguished place in the pinball world. From the 1950s-1970s they delivered some of the best games ever made.

To use the cargument, it's like how Chevy made the best cars until they started churning out poop in the 1970s, and were surpassed by other manufacturers.

A six flipper man?

I always thought it was funny how Gottlieb went from HUGE blue displays to tiny, borderline unreadable blue displays.

Clearly these guys never read the story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears.

You - and many others in this thread - are confusing the 70s and 80s with the 90s. Gottlieb games of the 70s are fantastic. Even their late 70s SS games are good - the only issue is that they were just EMs with digital scoring which seemed pretty sad and out dated compared to what Williams and Bally were putting out at the time.

The 80s games have some gems but by this time Gottlieb was already far, far behind Williams in terms of kick-ass next-level games. Sure, I love Alien Star and some of the other Fat Boy flipper games of the time, but seriously...compare something like Raven, Hollywood Heat or Bounty Hunter to pretty much ANY Williams game built from 1984-1990 and it's just pathetic.

So yeah, Fast Draw is cool. So is Black Hole. But as the 80s wore on Gottlieb was missing far more than it was hitting. Around 1990 it just gets sad...sure something like Silver Slugger is kind of fun but compare it to Whirlind and Funhouse and frankly it's a miracle the company was still in business.

Their 90s stuff is truly awful. no I haven't played Stargate. If it's as good as people always try to say it is, maybe Premier put out ONE game in the 1990s that can hang with the B/W stuff.

People say this - and maybe it's true for johnny come lately newbies....but get real.

When I was in college there was an Addams Family and Creature next to a Class of 1812, with an operation thunder and a Rollergames at the student union bar next door. I didn't know shit about which manufacturer was supposed to be better, or what some pointless online "ranking" was going to tell people 20 years later.

All I knew was that TAF and Creature sucked me in and I couldn't stop playing them, and that after about 2 credits on Class of 1812 I had absolutely no desire to play it again. At the place next door the same thing happened with Rollergames and Operation Thunder.

I had no bias and no preconceived notions, I just put money into the games that were fun. Like everybody else.

Yeah the idea that "haters" are supposed to stay out of any thread at all is pretty silly.

Pinside is built upon a foundation of bitching, arguing, and nutswinging, and that will never change.

The entire internet is, in fact. And porn of course.

Can we compare them to B and C list games?

There's not a single 90s premier game as good as Demo Man, T2, NBA Fastbreak, Corvette, Doctor Who, BSD, Dirty Harry, Jackbot, Gilligan's Island...uhh...Popeye? I don't know you might have a case there, but personally I'd take the popeye. You get the confusing nonsensical rules and bad layout of a Gottlieb System 3 but you still get the quality flippers, sound, and art of a WPC game.

If you truly love a thread, you must set it free. The OP don't get to set the rules.

I'll give you prolific

Hey aren't you a route operator? How does your collection of Premier games do at the cash box?

What logic?

I'm interested in how Whysnow's vast collection of Premier games do on route.

Man that's hard to believe. But I guess it makes sense considering the huge lines to play "Wipe Out" at all the pinball shows you also told me about.

LOL. Like many before you you have no idea how to play Attack From Mars.

You keep shooting up the middle and I will beat you 100% of the time.

The AFM code is amazing and not a single Premeir game's code deserves to smell its' shit.

Seriously, stick with the "unique layout angle" because comparing Premier's amateur hour code with the WPC stuff isn't gonna get you anywhere.

I'd agree - the games don't FEEL cheap, except for maybe the amateur hour dots many of the games have. Some of the stuff, like the moving habitrail in Waterworld, or the ski lift in Wipeout, are clever and don't seem particularly expensive or complicated.

Thanks for explaining what an opinion is. I think most of us know the difference of a value judgement and a fact.

Yes, to me, and everybody else, WPCs are better games than gottliebs.

I have yet to see anybody in this or any other thread declare, that en masse, game for game, 90s Premier games are better than WPC games, and I'd be pretty surprised if anybody actually held that opinion (beyond maybe George Riley?!)

Are you willing to state that this is your opinion? If $$$ weren't an issue and you couldn't sell the games, would you rather have every 90s Premier or every 90s WPC game?

Think carefully. The world is watching!

Actually you did.

You SPECIFICALLY ASKED if it - being WPCs' supposed higher tech - makes for a better game.

The answer I gave was "yes," and then, naturally, I asked for your opinion. And then you started melting down, telling me I can't read, and saying only idiots want to compare companies.

Come on bro, we are all friends here. But don't ask questions you don't want answered, stop trying to say Premier games are good when there's not a single person here who would take a collection of those turds over a collection of WPC games, and stop trying to pretend that you don't think this thread is a proper place for this kind of discussion and comparison.

It's not forbidden. Knock yourself out.

If you haven't noticed - and judging by your responses, you haven't - I've even praised some aspects of Premier's output in this thread. It's allowed!

Is it time for a "Safe Space" subforum?

I'd support it!

If it weren't for my valuable contributions this thread would have died hours ago and few people would have gotten to read about the splendor of Premier games. Nobody has any interest in a thread that's simply a circle-jerk and threads like that die in 10 posts. We are at 5 pages!!! This is the most attention Premier has gotten here, ever.

Lighten up man. It's called discussion and that's what we do here. If you don't want to read it just put me on "ignore" like many others have done.

Enjoying game on this timeless classic in OBX NC today!

Really lovin that amazing sound quality whysnow was telling me about!

IMG_4578 (resized).JPG

Some people were playing in states championship series matches and had better things to do than bitch about 90s gottliebs.

In NC the only gottlieb in our bank was 1980 buck Rogers, a great game.

I went 2-0 on it

Shouldn't everyone ought to always have better things to do than waste even a single second posting here?!

Of course. But here we are.

Your contributions to this thread amount to bitching about me. Congrats? Meanwhile I'm spreading the gospel of Spring Break and it's awesome sound quality.

And by the way, I didn't complain about people barging into my SF2 hating thread and spreading positivity, did I? In fact, I welcomed it, as I hold social intercourse dear to my heart.

Pinball celebrity?! I don't even have a podcast!

This is indeed one of many problems of the amateur hour Premier code you see on so many of these games - the "random award." Gottlieb fell in love with this concept in the late 80s and they never really let it go. Multiballs, EBs, Jackpots...they just seem to pop up whenever the hell they want to.

But for the Premier fan who has everything...I'd suggest checking out the Pinball for Sale FB group. There's a beautiful blinged out powdercoated Wipeout for sale in MD for $3,000. Time for you guys to put your money where your mouth is!

Give Al some love!

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-nice-is-this-stargate

Terrible, terrible game. Now I'm not partial to novelty roulette wheels in pinball machines - it's probably my least favorite feature - but if you are into it knock yourself out.

ALL of my thumbs are up baby (I long ago disabled seeing or leaving thumbs down)! As far as I can tell everybody loves me. And everybody else.

Pathetic. Go away please.

Yes. Shocker...it's not very good. But if you are into cocktail tables (I'm not) I guess it would make a nice novelty? I bought one for 50 bucks many years ago, it was just sitting in a college flophouse at U of Maryland my sister moved into.

There's an interesting story behind this one, it was built by Gottlieb as a contract for a fly-by-night operation that was selling a "get rich operating pinballs!" scheme. The idea was the consumer would buy Night Moves, find a location, and just sit back watching the money roll in!!!!!

Of course that isn't how operating works, especially when you only have one game and one location, and ESPECIALLY when that one game is Night Moves.

Sometimes, the best thing to do is ignore users who you simply can't stand. I've done that and it's made my experience here MUCH more enjoyable. I don't understand why more people here can't figure that out, it's really simple.

I will give whatshisface some serious kudos for being the first person in Pinside history to complain to the mods about someone upvoting them. Like seriously. that actually just happened.

I owned a Silver Slugger for a few months.

Pros - theme, size, decent layout, drops. The sound wasn't too bad. Was nice to see the vari-target back as baseball themes are its most natural application. Very reliable - beyond mechanical issues I needed to adjust when it came in there were never any board or power problems.

Cons - bad art, and once again, those premier rules. I'm pretty sure the only way to get multiball was random awards. The only way to get LOTS of the lucrative modes was random award. The best way to play was really just to keep shooting "mystery" and hope for the best.

The QC was also pretty atrocious. These games were famous for raised inserts (they just let 'em out of the factory that way) and age didn't help. Mine had the worst raised inserts I've seen on a game besides F14. The cabinets are junk also, with chintzy rails and a terrible backglass removal system with sloppy hinges and just a junky, sloppy feel all around.

My friends generally liked this game, especially newbies as it was very simple.

There's a great video Tim Arnold did many years ago about the entire Street Line. Worth checking out if you can find an old VHS copy (mine is screwed up) and a working VCR. The two I've played, Title Fight and Silver Slugger, are decent, newbie-friendly machines and you can see what Gottlieb was going for here - a smaller, cheaper, more reliable game that they said operators were demanding. But, those operators all went out and bought games like Whirlwind instead.

I'm wondering if anybody knows how much cheaper the Street Line games were upon release than what Williams was producing. Gottlieb made a big deal out of the "reduced price" on their flyers.

"I don't have an opinion on this, but ignore Levi's. Also, you were wrong to ask anybody's opinion because you should always judge for yourself."

Great post dude. Very helpful to the guy asking people who actually have some experience with Silver Slugger for their opinion.

I seriously don't get it man. You really have a problem with my answer to the guy's question? Why? Anything short of "Silver Slugger is the best game ever" wouldn't cut it for you?

Your comments were not valid. You have no opinion on Silver Slugger, so why chime in just to bitch about me? And you keep complaining about my "biased" opinion. You didn't even READ my opinion, which was in many ways complimentary. Clearly, you are the one with the agenda, and it makes you look bad. The guy who asked about it appreciated the opinion I offered, so why is it so important to you to discredit it? I offered an honest, well-informed opinion on a game I've owned and played - if you feel it's a violation of the rules, trolling, or abuse in any form please report it to the mods and let them sort it out rather than continue your endless campaign of harassment against me.

I also don't understand when people respond to opinion questions with "Play the game and decide for yourself!"

I mean, that's all well and good, but not everybody has access to every game, especially Premier stuff which you don't see as often. And, if someone is asking for an opinion, they want opinions, they don't want to be told that they shouldn't be asking for opinions. Seems pretty simple to me.

Has anybody here ever played a Humpty Dumpty?

There's one at Flippers OBX but it's never been plugged in since it showed up a few years ago. I wonder how long the ball times are.