Class of 1812 is my favorite pinball arcade game. Never played a real one. It is a grail for me.

Man that's hard to believe. But I guess it makes sense considering the huge lines to play "Wipe Out" at all the pinball shows you also told me about.

I agree. This thread has nothing to do with B/W games.

I get what you're saying, although on the other hand, having people post in this thread with complaints helps keep the discussion going. I feel like this way has been much more informative about Premiers than if it was all just people saying they love theirs and nothing else.

Also it's really nice seeing people having well thought-out *debates* on the internet. Can you believe it?!

CBW also did exceptionally well. ONly had that one out for a few months but it brought in about 70% of what TAF did for all 3 months it was out. Keep in mind CBW only cost 1500 compared to TAF at 5500. I know which one was the clear winner in that finacial debate, lol.

Me confused? I don't think so. The thing that I find confusing is why someone is jamming up the thread with B/W cheerleading, where it clearly doesn't belong. Makes about as much sense as mentioning Data East or Capcom.

On route I found that many people came it with preconcieved internet notions on "oh what a crappy game" Then 2 months go by and I catch them playing that crappy Teed Off or even looking to buy one for themself once it left route. Funny how in real life the cash box never lies and just watching what people play is very telling. People warm up to GTBs and then fall in love.

You rarely see them and players gravitate to them once they play a good one and learn how they are so well build and engineered. Stable beasts and are super fun and often very quique and challenging.

Also, why are people arguing about whether or not something is considered a mod or a hack?

Just set up your games in the way you enjoy them most! If you sell it, the buyer can always change it back if they want. That's one of the reasons we buy machines instead of looking for them in the wild, we can tweak them exactly to our liking.

With that said the white mountains on Whitewater is the worst hack I've ever seen.

Implying they're not 'best'/'good'. MM does good on route, but it's a shit game.

Jeez... So much hate on someone who'd just want to stick in a new coil stop or flipper mech to get the feel they want in a game.

That'd be like me getting mad at the guy in front of me at subway because he's getting onions on his sub, just because I don't like onions.

The thread started as a rebuttal to an SF2 sucks thread, so the OP knew it was coming and he doesn't seem emotionally battered as some of you people

I'm sorry let's get back on track. Where were we? Oh right, Norros, Tanzer, & Trudeau are the best designers of the 90s....continue

Couple years ago I got a Gold Wings. Set it up in basement. While working on it a little, noticed air raid wires cut and thought I wonder why that is (never heard one before)....reconnected wires...didn't take long and I knew why they were cut. Lol.

But, I still leave it on (honestly, I Kidna like it) cuz my friends kids run downstairs wanting to play "that one!" every time they are over! (Yes, sometimes kids are interested in toys and games still to, not just pros and collectors. Lol)...all afternoon, air raid through floor boards! Fun though

Wish I had the topper for it.

It's fine and all. I welcome thoughtful posts all the time. Likewise, I'm not over in some B/W thread trying to explain why Stern or JJ machines have better draw and take in more $. That is so far removed from the title of the thread, it makes little sense. If the logic involved goes something like "I don't like Premier/Gottlieb because they don't offer the same features as a B/W from the same era." then, I don't have any issue with that post at all. That's just not what happened though.

I just don't see it's purpose in a thread such as this, other than to bash and hate. People's opinions and preconcieved notions of reality don't change with posts on an internet forum. Sorry, but that's just the way of the world and human nature.

Yeah we all know that...talk about taking up worthless thread space. Or did you really think you were dropping some knowledge there?

Ok, I agree about Trudeau. Just think if he had a B/W budget to work with instead of the bare-bones Got. one he had for years... Oh wait, that's exactly what happened. Boom!

If Got. games stunk so bad, why would B/W hire one of their game designers to work for them-->

I grew up playing Monte Carlo in the local Sevvy - some 30 years later, I have one of my own! Love Gottlieb & Premier so much. They were really great innovators! Hard to believe all those wonderful machines were created by one guy.

I don't think it was Trudeau's budget that was the problem. BOM, etc on Gottliebs is pretty high. They probably have the highest BOM of any manufacturer pre-JJP, I'd bet

Agree. It's hard not to admire the amount of engineering prowess went into games like Wipeout, Operation Thunder, or Shaq Attack, with the latter having a giant bubble covering a moving basket with playfield displays.

It's a shame they had to do all their development in parallel. I think that's what really killed them. Hell, the designer still wouldn't know what the coding would be like until they were about to ship it. You look at a game like Gladiators and the story behind it. Imagine how excellent of a game it'd be if they stuck with the original theme, and really hashed out decent rules.

image (resized).jpeg

Incredibly!

What story is that?

Ha no kidding on Wipeout! I look at the ski left mech, the slalom mech, etc and am just amazed.

http://www.norrispinball.com/blog/?p=30

Someone should retheme it back to Legend of Zelda, actually.

I agree. I think the limiting factor would be a software rewrite though. There's so little documentation on the System 3 boardset, I'd think it'd be tough to get someone to rewrite rules and dot matrix animations.

I'd love to see a modern manufacturer tackle the theme and design a game around it. I think it'd probably be pretty popular as well.

LOL. Like many before you you have no idea how to play Attack From Mars.

You keep shooting up the middle and I will beat you 100% of the time.

The AFM code is amazing and not a single Premeir game's code deserves to smell its' shit.

Seriously, stick with the "unique layout angle" because comparing Premier's amateur hour code with the WPC stuff isn't gonna get you anywhere.

I had a gottlieb big hurt realy liked it,
played verry nice kinda miss it

I'd agree - the games don't FEEL cheap, except for maybe the amateur hour dots many of the games have. Some of the stuff, like the moving habitrail in Waterworld, or the ski lift in Wipeout, are clever and don't seem particularly expensive or complicated.

Thanks for explaining what an opinion is. I think most of us know the difference of a value judgement and a fact.

Yes, to me, and everybody else, WPCs are better games than gottliebs.

I have yet to see anybody in this or any other thread declare, that en masse, game for game, 90s Premier games are better than WPC games, and I'd be pretty surprised if anybody actually held that opinion (beyond maybe George Riley?!)

Are you willing to state that this is your opinion? If $$$ weren't an issue and you couldn't sell the games, would you rather have every 90s Premier or every 90s WPC game?

Think carefully. The world is watching!

Sys3 boards are actually more 'hi-tech' than WPC in pretty much every way. Dedicated DMD processor, FETs instead of regular transistors, etc etc.

I read through this thread and think to myself, man these are the same pathetic "PS vs Xbox" fanboys, except its "WMS vs GTB." Just as pathetic. We get there are those of you that dont like them. Doesnt mean you have to convince the rest of the world to not like them either. Get over it.

Well pinball-dood????!!!!

If all games had cost as not relavent at all, wouldn't you want exactly the same thing as everyone else and take a total shit on people that want different????? Or at least tell them why they are wrong; with their main defense being that they are allowed to??

Huh!!! Why won't you like my games and ONLY mine and ONLY for the reason I say???!!!

Brother

People need to stop their seagull impersonation...

Comparisons are fun though! Creates objective conversation rather than something that's subjective.

Literally thinking the exact same thing. I'm pretty impressed with the System 3 board set. They have extended switch and lamp matrices, too. Look at Cactus Jack's, and the amount of lamps they used just for the hell of it. No other reason than to give the player a good light show.

Actually you did.

You SPECIFICALLY ASKED if it - being WPCs' supposed higher tech - makes for a better game.

The answer I gave was "yes," and then, naturally, I asked for your opinion. And then you started melting down, telling me I can't read, and saying only idiots want to compare companies.

Come on bro, we are all friends here. But don't ask questions you don't want answered, stop trying to say Premier games are good when there's not a single person here who would take a collection of those turds over a collection of WPC games, and stop trying to pretend that you don't think this thread is a proper place for this kind of discussion and comparison.

It's not forbidden. Knock yourself out.

If you haven't noticed - and judging by your responses, you haven't - I've even praised some aspects of Premier's output in this thread. It's allowed!

I'm just saying that accepting dissenting opinions makes for good conversation here, even if it's a Gottlieb/Premier love-fest.

Op - you wont get a happy thread here apparently. I think earlier post was right, best thing would maybe be to join/start thread for a club of these...best you can do here is continue at others level of argue and debate.

I like some pins by just about all and have owned my share of them, but had hoped to discuss premier items here ....

I'm going to go see if there is a thread specific about liking B/W and see if people are happt for me to keep posting about my love for my Victory machine

Is it time for a "Safe Space" subforum?

I'd support it!

Man oh man, you have shitty opinions. And you're constantly jamming them down everyone else's throat.