I think Matt Coriale... not sure if he was the only one but there was a rumor a while back that he had finished a more "complete" version of the rom but wasn't able to release it for some reason???

Are you referring to the original code or the P-Roc update? We recently shot a feature vid on a machine with the P-Roc & what they added was impressive - although from what we hear, it's been updated again since.

I don't think Matt did the programming, but there is a level of code that was never released by WMS.

Yeah, Matt did the code on CC at WMS.

If he's got a further complete game, not wanting to give his work away for free is probably a factor.

Joe's a bit behind on CCC revisions. Can tell by the high score entry that he's not current with the latest

Doesn't really matter much now with CCC available.

If Matt really has more 'final' code on his game, it was done after he no longer worked for WMS. If Rick has 'more complete' CC code as he mentioned, it's probably the changes that were made by someone else for Wayne when he was going to re-make CC, but I don't know that for sure either way.

well the code would still be williams property and belong to whomever owns the assets currently.

working on the code at home after no longer being employed by williams does not suddenly free up the ownership of the code and its ip etc.

so all the changes he made, really do belong to PPS or whoever, obviously they dont know or dont care to enfoce that legal ownership to retrieve any updated code.

Unfortunately it does matter, as if PPS remakes CC they will not be able to use CCC code. I had also heard that there was additional code that wasn't released by B/W and that PPS now has access to that. It could be that it was buggy or rough. It just not clear who originally did the code for the game.

Brian

I dont see why they couldn't? Im not sure what the exact legalities would be, but it doesnt seem like a 'no way' situation.

Even if there is some original code that has yet to make it to the public it REALLY is a moot point since it will likely pale in comparison to CCC.

PPS would be silly to even think about remaking CC unless they can both find a way to get willaims to agree to his altering the code and hire Eric to make it CCC. Anything less would be silly and merely a marketing scheme IMHO.

Might have something to do with the "tribute" modes in the game. Some of those tributes are for licensed theme games.

CCC is written in python right? So, it is it no way compatible with microprocessors they'd be using for CC or a remake of CC. so.. unless someone feels like re-writing it, CCC will be tough short of doing the p-roc solution over again (i.e., a lot of work to make CCC 'native')

JJ is correct. At Expo Rick implied that a CC remake could be released with updated code (presumably the unreleased WMS code), but also pretty much dismissed the possibility that CCC could/would run on it.

Rick should just sell a wired and complete CC playfield. I'm betting he has the "rights" already to do that since it's just a "part" without WMS approval. Let people buy those and DIY your own CC using CCC or whatever, and companies like Pinball Refinery or whoever could do custom "complete" versions, too.

Is there still someone doing full aftermarket cabinets? I know there was at one time, anyway. And pretty sure there's already cabinet artwork being done, but if not, Rick would need to add that.

--Donnie

A playfield wired the WMS way wouldn't work with Rick's new system, though. I doubt that course of action is likely

You can rewire anything.

I'm saying don't bother with the full remake. So many are poo-pooing it because it won't be able to run CCC that I say it might make more sense to just do the playfield and nothing else. Well, he'll still sell plenty of translites and sets of cabinet art and plenty of other parts, too. So just do it and wire it as a drop-in replacement for current CC's. Drop it in a similar cabinet of a blown out game or buy a new cabinet from the aftermarket. Add P-Roc, done.

--Donnie

we have access to all the CC original code and development environment, as well as updated code, and will at some time release updated CC code. WMS has already in principal agreed to allow us to modify WMS game code and we are exploring all options at that time, which may include new hardware with upgraded capabilities (oh what a teaser ...). Also, WMS does care about modified software for many reasons (not least to mention theft of intellectual property), more than most people know, but we are working behind the scenes to get things to a state that they are comfortable with, as otherwise they would have jumped in a stopped some things very cold.

All in good time ...

Hopefully you can get Eric on board and make CCR into CCCR !

If you have checked it out, it is simply amazing and actually makes CC worth owning.

JMHO, but I think the majority share those thoughts.

In conjunction, the creation of CCC and making it free to others is an amazing thing for pinball in itself!

I wish pinball had more people like Eric to tweak and improve our favorite games.

tweaking and improving games usually involves modifying code which is not allowed (sorry to burst bubbles here)... CCC is an example of this which is in one way water over the bridge, but as well is an issue which we are attempting to address as it looks like it has its share of infringing activity that cannot set precendence for other activities (i.e. this is not the way to go about it), and wms is not blind to this. I'm sure people who have IP can understand and I'm sure people who do not have IP likely may not understand. In any event, there will be an upgraded version of CC at some point I expect next year and we will be working on exactly what and how that materializes, which would be able to use existing hardware as well as may enjoy some benefits using new hardware.

I fully understand IP as it is part of my day to day life.

I also understand that if you can find a way to incorporate what Eric has done (for free) into any potential remake of CC then you will surely sell WAY more and make WAY more money.

I would be doing whatever I could to get:
1. My license agreement to allow for improvement of CC as it was unfinished from the start
2. Get the guy that made CCC and ask him to work for you on the side to rewrite all of the Proc code so it will function with your hardware.

This is a no brainier if you want to maintain the 8k price tag on a future title.

I am at least 1 guy that would happily drop 8k on a CCCR, but would not even look at CCR.

If your license can not allow for this then you would be smart to make sure your new setup for CCR is hackable so some smart pinhead can take their time to potentially recode CCR into CCCR.

So I think you will find that (hypothetically of course) #1 PPS has an agreement in principal to extend code, and #2 PPS have several paths to 'complete' and 'extend' CC code which we are evaluating ... of course only hypothetical.

Ya then he started on his normal innovation-crippling tyrade about how CCC breaks copyrights etc.

that is hypothetically great news!

and I am hypothetically very excited at the hypothetical possibilities.

cheers

yes, that's right, I'm innovation crippling ... if you only knew ... lol

Hypothetically, if PPS made a CC remake that could realistically run hypothetically non-infringing CCC code, I'd be realistically signing up to buy the hypothetical remake with actual money.

Man, I dunno wtf is really going on. I have no inside knowledge on any of this. But from my perspective Rick has been pretty forthcoming and flexible.

I get it, people want a broad license to hack and improve their games. Totally understandable. I'm a remix culture fan myself. But I'm also sensitive to the IP issues, and I don't think Rick has been unfair or dickish in any way during all of this remake talk.

Thanks Rick for helping make advance the hobby. Wms pinball license is greatly improveming after years of stalemate.

Yes he is, but you got to call a spade a spade, he' s over reaching. He does not own all the rights to IP stuff (code, images, animation) yet he's patrolling even the smallest tweaks on this forum...I for one am tired of it.

kvan ... how exactly do you know what rights there are out there to over-reach on (you don't)? We protect what rights we are entitled to protect - the code, the dmd frames, the sound, and the artwork that we need to protect we do.You can be tired of it all you want but that will not change, so i'm afraid you will continue to be frustrated. We do not own the rights, we are a licensee of the rights, WMS owns the rights, just to be clear, but we have been granted certain enforcement authority to keep things where they are supposed to be.

What are those licensed rights in relation to the DMD animation and sound on the Williams ROMs?

original dmd frames and original sound files are protected ip, those fall under our ip license.

So you are a licensed vendor of the DMD frame and sound files on all of Williams games, reason I'm asking so there won't be any ambiguity in that regard.

As far as policing Williams IP rights, you probably can't litigate on their behalf.

I wonder if Stern would raise hell about IP if a collector finished X-Men?

Yes, we are licensee which covers DMD frames and sound files (copyrighted WMS IP). Yes, we can litigate, in fact there have been already instances in the past of the predessesor of ours (same license) who did initiate legal action in multiple occasions ... oy. I'm wasting time here, so will stop now (emotional intelligence kicking in ...).

welcome to pinside ... lol ... must get back to work ... must not waste time ... talk soon.

rick

you are ALMOST as good at the Gottlieb guy... sorry man but you are only second best at crippling innovation... but if at first you don't succeed!

Why has Pinside gotten so hostile lately? Is the cold weather making people grumpy?

You also have a decision to make. IMHO, if you can not realize how turning a blind eye (and even better yet, trying to figure out how to embrace) to anyone willing to improve on 20 year old games is advantageous to you, then you need to step back and look/listen to the situation.

If they are not making a profit, then you would likely be throwing litigation money at nothing and you would never win anything but a bad reputation. Toss out your first C&D to someone in the pinball community that is not harming your product and not making a profit and I can only bet it will not help you in the long run.

In opposition, how many 8k titles do you think exist.

In reality, MM and MB (maybe). AFM, not even close at 8k when you can already buy nice ones for less. CC did not even stand a chance till CCC came around. With CCC it is a real likely hood of being the #2 homerun.

It is all your choice of what to do in situations like these, but I can assure you that someone donating their time to make a game better and more collectible is only helping your bottom dollar. Throw the emotion out the window >> do you like to make money and produce pinball stuff?

CCC = $$$

Has Rick said he plans to pursue stopping CCC? Until he has, why bother with the attacking?

My guess is he knows it wouldn't look good. All he's trying to do is point out that he COULD and hopefully keep other people from doing the same thing.

And you can keep harping that a CCR will flop without CCC as part of it, but it's pretty apparent that Rick has plans he thinks will work. They probably don't include CCC, but who knows? I think the point that people WANT it to include CCC has been made pretty well.

--Donnie

CC without CCC is non-starter for me.

Setting aside the IP issues that Rick has clearly stated, in order to "tweak a game", with P-roc, like Eric did, you first have to totally re-create the entire game. That means re-writing all of the code, getting the dots, the sounds, getting that all right, the scoring, etc., then you can enhance the game. When you think about that, makes what Eric did all the more amazing (even if you stipulate that the game was way too 'shallow' to being with).

I believe that Rick has stated that if you want to create your own rules for a game, your own dots, your own art, etc. you can, which in a sense is what the matrix guys did, problem there is they also have licensing issues that would prevent them from just selling that, whether as completed games or as a kit.

If you want to re-create an existing game, I believe you can do that, up until the point you try to sell or distribute it, at which point you open yourself up to legal action relative to violating IP. I don't believe game rules are protected, but the images and sounds certainly are.

Rick has made it pretty clear, that he plans to protect the Williams IP. Whether that is an obligation he has to Williams as part of his licensing or whether it is to protect the value of the license he is paying for, I'm not sure, but does not matter. Hopefully he will find a way to license things in an affordable way so that the creativity of the community can be unleashed. There are plenty of games that PPS will never remake, but others could be willing to re-create and improve, hopefully a way to let those things happen can be found.

Amen...and I hope they succeeded, seriously. The stifling of the creativity part is what I had issue with. I would have been plenty OK to pay for roms with the music and animation left in tact, to whomever PPS included.