(Topic ID: 57710)

WHITEWATER CLUB= Lifejackets not required

By Skypilot

10 years ago


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  • Latest reply 14 hours ago by lrosent345
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You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider xtheblackknightx.
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#1633 8 years ago

Still one one fo the simplest best mods available, and I am not into mods.
"Non Pinball Decals" version from the UK.
Part of the whole "missing mountain" concept from the prototypes with a twist.
Integrated functional LEDs with locks.
Color match is spot on if you are using an original or NOS mountain set.
Not sure if the designer has made any more.

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2 weeks later
#1780 8 years ago

If you are finishing a restoration don't forget to get a set of the green oblong lock target protectors from Mantis Amusements.
They are a necessity, unless you want to keep hunting down targets and want cracked ramps.

http://www.mantisamusements.com/ww.htm

I have had a set on mine for over a decade when they were first released.
These are in addition to Cliffy upgrades for the Disaster Drop ramp or any other part of the machine.

#1792 8 years ago
Quoted from jk:

Hey, I just picked up a White Water this weekend minus the topper. I know these are tough to find. Anybody have one for sale? Any word on the remake that was blundered? I'm also looking for a new mountain set. It looks like everyone is sold out. Any leads? Thanks

http://www.ministryofpinball.com/en/white-water-mountain-boulders-set.html

Don't mess with Twisted Pins.
Wait for the potential alternative for lenticular decal and curved plastic.

Dome is readily available from multiple sources.

Reflective dome decal is readily available from multiple sources.

Replacement light and control boards readily available from Great Lakes Modular, but make sure your game voltages are in proper specification first.

Total cost for all parts including a used lenticular plastic is going to cost you over $500 (shipping considered).
Something you need to be aware.

#1820 8 years ago
Quoted from Whitewater:

HELP PLEASE - FLASHER PROBLEM ?
Hi guys, thank you for your technical help so far. I was so excited for the first time ever my whitewater was fully operational ... that's right 100% working. It was a great feeling (Of course my wife thinks I'm crazy). My feeling of success however was short lived I now feel incomplete.
When I turned on the pin today my Upper Left Playfield flasher had stopped working.

Was there a consideration to clean the socket?
If I remember correctly, its is a #89 bayonet.
The next thing is to test the voltage at the socket.
Is it getting the right DC voltage?
If ALL other flashers are working, check the EASY things first, before electronics.

1 week later
#1832 8 years ago

Learn something about YOUR GAME from 1993.
Start at 12:46, unless you want to learn a bit more about Alvin G. and Co and MC.

I wonder how many people on PinSide have actually seen this video and know some of the details and what prototype features were cut from the game. Look VERY closely, there are actually a significant number.

Knowledge is power...

#1835 8 years ago
Quoted from yzfguy:

Dead tree falling as a diverter might have been cool!

The "dead tree" diverter was used, just not exactly as originally concepted, it was modified.
The prototype design with the paper ramps shows its proper orientation using it as a "baseball bat log" which eventually had BigFoot holding it.
The guy with the binoculars sitting on the box in the photo and ultimately the translite is John Youssi, for those that are unaware.

Pinball history has a tendency to be lost, which in many ways is much more interesting that most of today's pinball drama.
Unfortunately, most of the older generations to do not post, post regularly, or even use a computer.

#1849 7 years ago

For all those Whitewater "enthusiasts" there is still one source for the WH20 "waterfall" prototype missing mountain.

Pinball Center in Germany
http://www.pinball.center/en/shop/pinball-parts-by-game/white-water/6482/white-water-waterfall-mountain
Total cost is around $60 USD based on my calculations of currency conversion.

Some are not aware a few are still out there based on the original mold.
Closer in color from what I see using the original NOS mountain set, not the reproductions.
I have no idea how it is fastened.

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#1858 7 years ago

I will be selling this pinball accessory soon.

"The official LED pinball helmet".

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#1871 7 years ago
Quoted from judremy:

Cool white is so nice on this machine, but most people tend to use a lot of blue or teal. The ice blue also looks good mixed in with the cool white. I'll try to post some pics this weekend.

Do you mean like the this "iceberg" WH20?
The HMS Titanic was sunk by this particular machine.
The LEDs were unfortunately not bright enough to warn the crew and passengers.

Compare this to the original factory game playfield design, the art on this machine was turned invisible.
$2k+ down the WH20 whirlpool.
Game went up for sale for over $8K, but it did not sell for anywhere remotely near that price.
The owner learned a valuable lesson from the event.
"Less is more".

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What were they thinking?

#1885 7 years ago
Quoted from ttown:

Where can I find that missing plastic?

Keep in mind the "missing plastic" (mountain) is not really "missing".

It was a concept idea, that never even made it to samples, and was only fabricated for a single prototype.
There was no defined shape of exact dimensions, shape, or size.
Whatever BS ends up being thrown out into the pinball wild about its history, may not have realities of truth in order to jack up prices.
In this case, it pretty much is untrue.

It was a creation of modders in THREE separate variations over the course of over decade+, not reconsidering a remold.
Yes, exactly what I said. It is more an "original mod" versus a "prototype mod".
This is not same as per say the HSII prototype mountain, which was LICENSED from PPS under the Bally/WMS logo, and the original mountain was recast from the prototype.

What you see in photos of individual WH20 games includes everything over the rainbow and back again, including recycled modified mountains from the plastic mountain set. Red West made a nice original design with his accent painting which matched the mountain set well.

I already posted a link for one of the creations.

NOTE: BTW, you never offered the price and sale of TAF conclusion.

#1888 7 years ago
Quoted from Fifty:

This is two different mods. The missing plastic was created by Drano. The missing mountain you can get through aenaes (sp?)

I do understand that, but I have no idea which mod the poster was referring to in this case.
It was completely unspecific.

The "missing" return lane plastic (Drano) was not a part of the prototype WH20 either.
It was never part of the John Youssi artwork package, but certainly was well done.
Aeneas did not create the first "missing mountain" either (but was also well done), he was one of three different people with three different versions.
More confusion.

The ultimate confusion generally happens is when people start believing that "missing" mods where part of development of a game.
Mods for most machines was completely unheard of as an interest prior to 1999.
Collector's did not care, it was either prototype machine, or it was not.
Some serious collector's wanted prototypes, but most did not give a $#@!, they just wanted a superb quality example.
Most early prototypes have game issues.
Those that did not were "fixed" as samples before being tested on locations, but retained their features, many times TURNED OFF (if mechanical or not included in the game code).

People were not trying to make money of things that did not exist at that time, unlike today.
I do like and applaud creativity, as it promotes the parts market.
However, sometimes this is a misrepresentation to new pinball machine buyers and collectors.
Lately, I have seen WH20 being sold as "has rare missing mountain installed" which infers something inaccurately.

Pinball history has a tendency to be lost now, especially in days prior to modern internet, as many of the original people involved have passed on, got out of industry, and older collectors/hobbyists do not post.

That is partially why I posted the Todd Tuckey's TNT "tag on video" with AGC's Mystery Castle.
At lot of people where not at the 1993 Pinball Expo, when the game was being displayed showing its original development stages.

ADDENDUM DESIGN NOTES: There are no prototype WH20s that I am aware of that had the insanity falls tri-lane rollover ramp, additional installed three bank target (versus two), raft inserts, features inserts, modes, different ramp angle design and curves, or other features shown in the video. This added additional cost to the game, and where cut. Only the parts. I have some of this stuff in boxes, and the part of the artwork. In reality, we are really lucky WMS kept the "waterfall" lenticular decal and topper, and that was being considered for removal as well! Dennis and the rest of the design team really "fought" for that one, as John Youssi had already completed the translite artwork without the WH20 logo, which if the translite had not been already ordered into production, we might have lost that as well like what happened to the DW Dalek "wobble head".

#1909 7 years ago
Quoted from Arcade:

Here is a photo before and after the first preliminary cleaning.
Playfield is nice but both cabinet sides are pretty faded in the lettering.

Completely restorable, good job with the "big game hunter hat" on.

1 week later
#1920 7 years ago
Quoted from Anetpaul10:

Hello all..my first WH2O.
Seems to have everything but the wire shooter ramp. Any clue where I can get a shooter ramp?

"Houston we have a problem..."

This is going to be very difficult, as a parted game or having it remade will be the only answer. These ramps were never remade and never will be as the wireforms can be spot welded repaired. This is unlike the "popper" wireform got busted up pretty badly and was easier to reproduce.

Have another local owner let you borrow their ramp and take it to a metal shop for fabrication, and then have it nickel plated. This is the easiest way, unless their are a few NOS still floating around. At one point, I remember owning an extra set of wireforms, but that was 15+ years ago.

#1925 7 years ago
Quoted from yzfguy:

To each their own, but I can honestly say I would rip both of those out immediately
A truck in a river?

Its a Russian logging truck like in "SpinTires". They get stuck in water and mud all the time.

3 weeks later
#1974 7 years ago

I believe I have both ramps that were melted, used, but in good shape, in my parts boxes.
I am going to be moving some things around in the next few weeks.
If I find them, the owner can have them for whatever shipping cost is and small pinball donation.

There is a lesson learned in this situation.
If you cannot control the heat of the dishwasher settings, it is best to flame polish them after scrubbing with Novus.
Don't put game plastics in the dishwasher either, only metal parts.
I have seen people put physical melt holes in the middle of plastics under the same circumstances.

v/r

-TBK

1 week later
#1977 7 years ago
Quoted from aeneas:

I realise my post is a bit cryptic but don't want to reveal too much at this moment..
If there are some people here who play whitewater in visual pinball often, or who have an eprom programmer, and want to test some things ? Please contact me..

Deciding to redesign the code huh, Aeneas?
There were a few features that were excluded from the original prototyping back in the design period starting in 1992.
I remember some of them, but others were tied to physical features which did not make the cut to production after the engineers reconsolidated efforts with Dennis.
No doubt, wanting to keep the situation convert, in order to avoid useless squawking by license holders for copyright infringement.
Names excluded for obvious reasons.

"The bane of the pinball hobby."

4 weeks later
#2032 7 years ago

As a note of consideration.

Selling an "iceberg" WH20 is problematic.

Most collectors do not want the game. Neither do any reputable dealers. Essentially these type of modifications SIGNIFICANTLY devalue the machine as the amount of work to restore the factory specifications is not worth the time or expense.

There is a WH20 that has been sitting on CL for over 6+ months, obscenely priced I might add, exactly like these type of machines, with incomplete white powdercoating.

It looks terrible.
You cannot see the playfield at all.
My recommendation is don't do it, unless you intend to have this become a "cold deserted island" personal machine.

00x0x_cKqpynalt74_600x450_(resized).jpg00x0x_cKqpynalt74_600x450_(resized).jpg

#2033 7 years ago
Quoted from GorillaBiscuits:

Does anybody have an idea of a fair price for a nice condition original translite? Picked up the 3d one and I feel like kind of a hoarder holding onto the original.
Or should I hang on to it?
The machine itself is pretty nice with matching original boards and great PF. Cheers.

Hang it on your wall in a frame.

#2036 7 years ago

The same statements were made about EMs, early SS, and conversion kits both pinball and other coin operated devices for the past 50 years.

Covert the game to make it non-reversible, the owner/operator loses. We are not talking about rethemes, but the same basic results apply. Most of these games were junked later, and ultimately parted out unless they were exceptionally well done. Sometimes they were not even salvageable and dumper binned. That includes in many cases "creative" cabinet repaints.

Does anyone realize the number of upright games for example that were turned video poker machines? Extreme maybe, same concept.

The cost to restore in parts and labor is prohibitive. If an owner does not care, they should not complain later they cannot sell the machine. I get tired of pointing out multiple examples for justification, because I don't feel like arguing anymore. They was just the most obvious recent example. It was absolutely appallingly hideous and I know the owner.

If you want want something to be "collectable" don't massively mod the game in manner that makes indistinguishable from the original concept. This applies to every single hobby in existence.

Certainly don't expect a game to be worth $3K higher than NIB cost made in the last 5 years due to mods.

If you do not agree, no issues.
The secondary market compass points the direction.
There has been an increase in this hobby of collectors by an average of a +30% gain every year for the past 10 years. They don't want this crap, especially on a WH20 that has roughly only around 4500 left now after the original production. If an owner wants how we figure this out, ask me.

1 month later
#2141 7 years ago
Quoted from Playmatic:

Is there an "I wish I owned a WhiteWater club"?

In about 5 years, it will be "I cannot afford to be in the Whitewater Club".

In 2005, you could still buy above average examples for $600-800.
Excellent condition less than $1600.
Superb condition $2000.
Collector $2800.
Price has more than cincdupled in 10 years.

Out of the original 7000 produced less than 3/4 are expected to be in existence now based on probability in any condition. In 20 more years, less than a quarter will remain.

#2147 7 years ago
Quoted from Farmboss:

When I turn the game on or off I hear a loud popping sound. None of my other Williams make this sound. I searched and came up with nothing. Does your White Water make this?

This is caused by the rapid discharge or charging of the capacitors on the game, when power is applied or cut off.

The way this is corrected is to add an interuptting circuit that leads from the sound board to the speakers.

Look up the key words of "removing speaker dc thump" on th a internet.

Usually this problem is not serious.
However, if it is really loud, it can damage the speakers.

#2163 7 years ago

There are stencils out there for the back of the cabinet floating around. They pop up occasionally by parts suppliers rebought from the original production games although I have not looked lately. They get "passed around" by collectors and restorers as well. Be vigilent.

I have a PinSound board in my Whitewater. The resamples were done professionally. The board is worth the money. You may not know this but the cost of a rebuilt pre-89 sound board is basically the same cost now.

#2165 7 years ago
Quoted from WH20_Buzz:

Thanks Black Knightz.
I'll keep an eye out for a stencil.
So do you think the sound board is worth the effort? Personally unless the sound files are remanufactured I can't see the sound being much better, but I don't really know
Cheers

You can download the complete sample set used for all game sounds and music directly from the PinSound forum for FREE. You then can evaluate them personally using you computer, phone, pad, or even your sound system. CD 320 kps stereo quality.

#2169 7 years ago

Some people already knew the game was a winner in 1993.
I unboxed one as a technician as well.
Solid earner, good home machine, but was not let go very often from operators that owned one.
They got played out and discarded.

WH20 no longer has the longest ramp in pinball history, straight lengthwise.
NASCAR took its place.
Total complete length is still TOTAN, start to finish in terms of length.
Second place is CFTBL.

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