White Water
Williams, 1993Quoted from woody76:I just picked up a really rough one in similar playfield shape with NO topper for $3500. I had to put about $400 in it to get it going and playing good and add a repro topper. Crazy part is it plays better than my $8000 restored one I had several years back.
What were the differences that you noticed between the two?
Quoted from RobDutch:What would you say is the value of a White Water with playfield damage at 3 noticable spots: 2 near Lost Mine and one just above the shoot again insert.
Also the 8 boat insert has a spot.
Cab is faded and touched up. (Needs new decals)
Topper is missing the dome (for sale at €140 near me) but rest is complete.
As far as seller says: ramps, plastics, boards and dms are in good shape.
It plays well according to the add.
Thanks for your advice
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What is a game worth? It's so hard to say these days. I think people have more money than sense anymore because the prices people are paying are obnoxious. I was literally set up to buy a couple machines yesterday and if I hadn't been there to see it with my own eyes I would not believe that this truly happened. A guy came in to an estate sale I was at and saw a Firepower that actually I was going to buy it did not work and this guy literally threw down $3,000 for it. It's like my dad used to say there's an ass for every seat. I was absolutely amazed how uneducated someone could be to lay down that kind of cash for a non working game thats really only worth about $1500 when fully functional.
Quoted from JimFNB:Even rough ones lately seem to go for $4k+ (US), so I would say if you could get it for around 4k then that would be good. The ramps and especially the working topper (even without the dome) are a huge plus. Get pics of the ramps behind the green targets and look for damage, and also look for cracked or chipped boulders. Assuming those are good, then take a base value of about $5k, subtract ~$400 for decals and dome and split the $1k cost of a new pf, and you get to around $4k.
Also, make sure the ramps are good. The first pic obviously isn't the best, but from what you can see of that ramp it sure looks dirty and cloudy. They should be pretty transparent. Good luck.
Quoted from woody76:I just picked up a really rough one in similar playfield shape with NO topper for $3500. I had to put about $400 in it to get it going and playing good and add a repro topper. Crazy part is it plays better than my $8000 restored one I had several years back.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:What is a game worth? It's so hard to say these days. I think people have more money than sense anymore because the prices people are paying are obnoxious. I was literally set up to buy a couple machines yesterday and if I hadn't been there to see it with my own eyes I would not believe that this truly happened. A guy came in to an estate sale I was at and saw a Firepower that actually I was going to buy it did not work and this guy literally threw down $3,000 for it. It's like my dad used to say there's an ass for every seat. I was absolutely amazed how uneducated someone could be to lay down that kind of cash for a non working game thats really only worth about $1500 when fully functional.
Thank you all for the advice! As I'm still a student, I'm not willing to overpay a lot that's why I asked help hahaha.
The stupid thing with this pin, is that the add is up for over a month, it has been seen a lot and the price is not high.
So bit scared I'm missing something here..
The machine is only half an hour away, so thinking of checking it out.
And wow PinDeLaPin for the Firepower guy
Maybe he knows there is a few thousands of bucks in the cash box 
Quoted from RobDutch:Thank you all for the advice! As I'm still a student, I'm not willing to overpay a lot that's why I asked help hahaha.
The stupid thing with this pin, is that the add is up for over a month, it has been seen a lot and the price is not high.
So bit scared I'm missing something here..
The machine is only half an hour away, so thinking of checking it out.
And wow pindelapin for the Firepower guy
Maybe he knows there is a few thousands of bucks in the cash box
That game has some unusual wear and some less-than-stellar touch ups, based on that and my experience looking at dozens of WH20s for two years before finding one nice enough but not too nice (I didn't want to pay 7-8K for a fully restored one) I'd bet there are multiple raft inserts with edge wear on that game too. I'd probably pass on it at $4K but anything lower and you're in good shape for a players condition game. Funny how this game used to be considered a B or C title not that long ago and now everyone wants one.
Quoted from yaksplat:What were the differences that you noticed between the two?
it just plays smoother or something. The restored one had new everything, ramps, plated wireform, etc.. Maybe the repro ramps threw things off.
Quoted from woody76:it just plays smoother or something. The restored one had new everything, ramps, plated wireform, etc.. Maybe the repro ramps threw things off.
It could very well be the thicker ramps. I've noticed on other games that thicker ramps post problems. I had to make a bunch of changes on whirlwind repro ramps. The comet corkscrew repro ramp needed adjusting as well.
Quoted from TheLaw:No thanks, fine the way it is
The guy is an artist and wants to try something different. The original is nice, but I love what he did with the other translites and would be interested to see to see what he comes up with. I have offered my translite to him for measurements.
Quoted from Lermods:The guy is an artist and wants to try something different. The original is nice, but I love what he did with the other translites and would be interested to see to see what he comes up with. I have offered my translite to him for measurements.
I agree. I'm not sure that I will like what he does with it, but I am quite interested to see.
It would be nice if he could work the WhiteWater name into the artwork in such a way that it would still look good for people who have the topper and for those who don't.
Quoted from jawjaw:I think Whitewater has the best looking translite of all the 90's pins. Love how they made a whole topper for the title and just had artwork on the translite. I wonder why they didn't do that to other games.
They completely misjudged how much people would pay for a topper, could have kept them in the business several more years! 
Quoted from AJB4:Happy to get out on the river and join the White Water club. I have wanted this game for a while and it seems like they are somewhat are to find. Anyway, players condition game but might be a good candidate for a restoration job.
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Welcome aboard. Just tone down those LEDs a bit
Quoted from AJB4:Happy to get out on the river and join the White Water club. I have wanted this game for a while and it seems like they are somewhat are to find. Anyway, players condition game but might be a good candidate for a restoration job.
[quoted image]
Welcome aboard fellow Dubliner! When the pandemic is over we should party 
Don't mind @TheLaw, he hates colored GI lol.
Speaking of which, TheLaw I have before and after pics for you.
IMG_20200414_193841 (resized).jpgIMG_20200513_115645 (resized).jpgQuoted from brian-allen:Hi everyone, I'm an artist and I've been creating officially licensed alternate backglasses.
I'm going to be making an official Alternate Backglass for Whitewater soon (like the ones I have done previously, see attached).
LOOKING FOR SOME HELP:
1. Would anyone be interested in doing a bit of a trade? If you lend me your Whitewater translite for a few days, I'll give you send you a free Translite when I'm finished with the artwork. I just need the original Translite for a few days to scan and take accurate measurements. Email me or DM me if you're interested. I would pay for all shipping. [email protected]
2. Does anyone have any suggestions for how they'd like to see Whitewater changed? Any ideas on how to improve on it?
You can see my pinball artwork here https://www.flylanddesigns.com/product-category/pinball-and-arcade-artwork/
THANKS!
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I would advertise those in each game's club thread. You can search for them. Here's the Medieval Madness club:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/-medieval-madness-owners-club-the-door-is-open-cmon-in
Quoted from Crash:I would advertise those in each game's club thread. You can search for them. Here's the Medieval Madness club:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/-medieval-madness-owners-club-the-door-is-open-cmon-in
Thanks Crash - I did advertise this in the MM Remake group, but not the one you posted, thanks, I'll do that!
Hi all!
I have been able to light all the mountains/rocks from underneath except for the one right next to the Big Foot Cave sign. The space underneath is limited. How is everyone doing it? What are you using? A pic would be great if possible.
Thx!
Quoted from Lhyrgoif:Currently my game got FL-15411 coils in both lower left and right flippers. I know it's supposed to be an orange FL-15411 (strong) in the left one and a blue FL-11629 (even stronger) in the right one.
I've recently bought this game and immediately teared it down for maintenance so I don't really know how the current coil strength configuration "feels" and works. I have played some Whitewater pins before but of course I have no idea what coils they had.
Normally I would just mount the stronger FL-11629 in the right flipper and be done with it, but I'm worried the extra strength may be the actual cause to the broken ramp entrances and mountains this game had when I bought it. I've replaced both some mountain plastics and some ramps with brand new ones and I'm frankly a bit scared that a really strong coil will break them too.
In short, I'm interested to hear what coils you have mounted and what you recommend. If the strongest FL-11629 coil is needed to properly make the steep ramps then I will mount it (game play comes first) but if the weaker FL-15411 is enough to clear all ramps then I will gladly keep it in my game and hopefully save some plastics from breaking (or am I overthinking this and the difference between the coils isn't that big?).
Bump
Noone want to chip in on their flipper coil experience for this game?!
Quoted from marioparty34:Hi all!
I have been able to light all the mountains/rocks from underneath except for the one right next to the Big Foot Cave sign. The space underneath is limited. How is everyone doing it? What are you using? A pic would be great if possible.
Thx!
Here is my game. I have the big foot spotlight mod. It came with a plastic clamp that attached to the top of the wireform ramp. The light socket then screwed onto this clamp. It's also what I used to attach another light socket facing inside the boulder. For the bulb I used a two head flex bulb. Works great for stuff like this when you can adjust each head independently to get a nice spread of light. Ball clears everything fine but I did have to cut the bottom of the big foot spotlight hood since I had it tucked in so far. I can get picks with boulder removed but think that gives you a clear idea of one way to do it.
20200531_201139 (resized).jpg20200531_201217 (resized).jpgQuoted from Lhyrgoif:Bump
Noone want to chip in on their flipper coil experience for this game?!
I have the correct coils and my game is fine. I would say if the game is getting damages then something is off somewhere.
Quoted from Lhyrgoif:Noone want to chip in on their flipper coil experience for this game?!
Just start with what you have and adjust from there. Every game is different.
Quoted from Lhyrgoif:Bump
Noone want to chip in on their flipper coil experience for this game?!
Maybe consider different flipper rubbers if your power seems too high. Try some low bounce competition ones from Titan.
Quoted from Lhyrgoif:Currently my game got FL-15411 coils in both lower left and right flippers. I know it's supposed to be an orange FL-15411 (strong) in the left one and a blue FL-11629 (even stronger) in the right one.
I've recently bought this game and immediately teared it down for maintenance so I don't really know how the current coil strength configuration "feels" and works. I have played some Whitewater pins before but of course I have no idea what coils they had.
Normally I would just mount the stronger FL-11629 in the right flipper and be done with it, but I'm worried the extra strength may be the actual cause to the broken ramp entrances and mountains this game had when I bought it. I've replaced both some mountain plastics and some ramps with brand new ones and I'm frankly a bit scared that a really strong coil will break them too.
In short, I'm interested to hear what coils you have mounted and what you recommend. If the strongest FL-11629 coil is needed to properly make the steep ramps then I will mount it (game play comes first) but if the weaker FL-15411 is enough to clear all ramps then I will gladly keep it in my game and hopefully save some plastics from breaking (or am I overthinking this and the difference between the coils isn't that big?).
Also, get some mantis and cliffy ramp protectors if you're worried about damaging the ramps.
Mantis ramp protectors:
https://mantispinball.com/product/whitewater-protector-set/
Cliffy ramp protectors: http://www.passionforpinball.com/wh20.htm
I have 2 options on White Water machines right now and both are at the same price, would like to have advice.
Would you rather have:
Game 1= 1 side faded, multiple switch errors, 1 scratch on playfield near lost mine, left ramp cracked trough the middle and playfield (everything) very dirty but does have topper.
Or
Game 2= new decals, playfield has wear in front of lost mine, no topper
Game #1 topper
You can fix the issues and re decal the cab, not seeing the wear spot , touch up or replace playfield.
Can't imagine this game without the topper.
Quoted from RobDutch:I have 2 options on White Water machines right now and both are at the same price, would like to have advice.
Would you rather have:
Game 1= 1 side faded, multiple switch errors, 1 scratch on playfield near lost mine, left ramp cracked trough the middle and playfield (everything) very dirty but does have topper.
Or
Game 2= new decals, playfield has wear in front of lost mine, no topper
Definitely game 1 because it has the OG topper which adds a bunch of money to the net worth.
Quoted from PinDeLaPin:Definitely game 1 because it has the OG topper which adds a bunch of money to the net worth.
This.
Or wait for option 3
Thank you all! I have asked the seller for better photos of the topper and a video of it in action..
The game is 2,5 hours away and for a small country like the Netherlands, that is a huge distance 
So have to be sure I really want it first haha
Quoted from RobDutch:So have to be sure I really want it first haha
You do.
Quoted from brian-allen:Hi everyone, I'm an artist and I've been creating officially licensed alternate backglasses.
I'm going to be making an official Alternate Backglass for Whitewater soon (like the ones I have done previously, see attached).
LOOKING FOR SOME HELP:
1. Would anyone be interested in doing a bit of a trade? If you lend me your Whitewater translite for a few days, I'll give you send you a free Translite when I'm finished with the artwork. I just need the original Translite for a few days to scan and take accurate measurements. Email me or DM me if you're interested. I would pay for all shipping. [email protected]
2. Does anyone have any suggestions for how they'd like to see Whitewater changed? Any ideas on how to improve on it?
You can see my pinball artwork here https://www.flylanddesigns.com/product-category/pinball-and-arcade-artwork/
THANKS!
I really like the "skull mountain" from the ball lock display. I might feature that in the background, but would also suggest keeping the southwest canyon feel of things.
Quoted from RobDutch:Thank you all! I have asked the seller for better photos of the topper and a video of it in action..
The game is 2,5 hours away and for a small country like the Netherlands, that is a huge distance
So have to be sure I really want it first haha
You didn't mention cost but value of topper is at least $500. If you can score a good deal on the one without a topper, it might be worth it. At least try a lowball offer. I would prefer having the topper but price is the important factor.
I would also add that new decals is not necessarily a good thing (your game #2 option). Many people put these on game without sanding and paying attention to detail. You would want to check for curling of the new decals at the legs.
Seller of game 1 just told me the topper lights don't work. Is that most of the times something simple?
Quoted from RobDutch:Seller of game 1 just told me the topper lights don't work. Is that most of the times something simple?
COULD it be something simple? Sure.
Would I bet money on it? No.
Be aware that the topper uses a special type of bulb. Even though it LOOKS like you can put #44 bulbs in there, they will burn out almost instantly.
It is possible that somebody put the wrong bulbs in and they just burnt out. But it is also possible that the topper driver board is shot, and I don't think those are easy to come by.
Quoted from mbeardsley:But it is also possible that the topper driver board is shot, and I don't think those are easy to come by.
You can get one here: https://mypinballs.com/electronics/store.jsp
But yes... Money.
Quoted from daveyvandy:You can get one here: https://mypinballs.com/electronics/store.jsp
But yes... Money.
Cool, I didn't know that anyone was making replacements. Very good to know, thanks.
Quoted from RobDutch:I have 2 options on White Water machines right now and both are at the same price, would like to have advice.
Would you rather have:Game 1= 1 side faded, multiple switch errors, 1 scratch on playfield near lost mine, left ramp cracked trough the middle and playfield (everything) very dirty but does have topper.
Or
Game 2= new decals, playfield has wear in front of lost mine, no topper
Well, option number 3 is wait for an other to come up for sale. Seems like the 2 that are for sale are not what you are looking for.
It's not a life and death situation! They come up for sale all the time.
Give it a few weeks and you will end up with one that you'll be really happy with.
Quoted from lpeters82:I really like the "skull mountain" from the ball lock display. I might feature that in the background, but would also suggest keeping the southwest canyon feel of things.
--Try to tie the flashlight, map, and key into the story a bit more. You need those items to explore the Lost Mine (gold mine). Perhaps have one of the characters on the raft with these item. Have them looking at the map and pointing out towards a gold mine off in the distance.
--Equip the "Bigfoot Hunter" character with a Polaroid camera, since that is another award in the game.
--Make sure Bigfoot still looks like game designer, Dennis Nordman.
Quoted from Marten:Well, option number 3 is wait for an other to come up for sale. Seems like the 2 that are for sale are not what you are looking for.
It's not a life and death situation! They come up for sale all the time.
Give it a few weeks and you will end up with one that you'll be really happy with.
Thanks for the advice Marten! The 2 sellers actually backed out both, so will have to wait on option 3.. I wont be in the club for a while I guess.. Oh well, still have to sell my Whirlwind first to make some room haha.. But I'll be back here in a few weeks/months hopefully! 
Quoted from mbeardsley:COULD it be something simple? Sure.
Would I bet money on it? No.
Be aware that the topper uses a special type of bulb. Even though it LOOKS like you can put #44 bulbs in there, they will burn out almost instantly.
It is possible that somebody put the wrong bulbs in and they just burnt out. But it is also possible that the topper driver board is shot, and I don't think those are easy to come by.
They are 12v 194 automotive bulbs to light the topper.
Would really appreciate any pics of how people have powder coated any parts of the WH20. Thanks for sharing. I’m doing a restore. Can’t believe how dirty this thing is.
148ED4B8-0AD4-4227-B59B-75EB06FCF58B (resized).jpegQuoted from Johncare07:Would really appreciate any pics of how people have powder coated any parts of the WH20. Thanks for sharing. I’m doing a restore. Can’t believe how dirty this thing is.
[quoted image]
I think chrome looks the best, DO NOT DO WHITE. I picked up a beater that had a black playfield. Ended up cleaning up nicely.
Quoted from woody76:I think chrome looks the best, DO NOT DO WHITE. I picked up a beater that had a black playfield. Ended up cleaning up nicely.
Yeah I totally agree the Chrome does look best overall. I do not mind when the legs are powder-coated I think it gives it just a little flair and it doesn't become overwhelming and take away from the game.
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Lancaster, NY
Edmonton, AB