(Topic ID: 116473)

Whitepaper: Pinball pre-ordering = Battered Husband Syndrome


By lowepg

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 34 posts
  • 22 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by lowepg
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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-8
#1 5 years ago

I read a recent newspaper article describing a man who was being continuously abused by his spouse and yet refused to leave her. While I absolutely think the wife was a monster in the situation and 100% to blame, a small part of me couldn't understand why the man just wouldn't (or couldn't) leave her.

Later the same day I read the usual posts from people who had pre-ordered pinball machines.... and the similarities were striking!

Here are the symptoms of Battered person Syndrome (BPS). I've simply replaced the word "violence" with "pinball delay" and "the abused" with the "pre-orderer." Draw your own conclusions:

The pinball pre-orderer will irrationally place the blame for the delays elsewhere.
The pinball pre-orderer thinks that the delays are somehow their own fault.
The pinball pre-orderer has an irrational belief that the pinball manufacturer is always right and omniscient.

#2 5 years ago

Not me, I blame 100% on the manufacturer (or should I say so-called manufacturer), I don't even call these guys manufacturers, I call them money collectors.

It's not my fault they can't do what they promise in the timeframe they promise. And I am/have gotten my refund back because they don't have a leg to stand on.

Kevin (Skit-B) started collecting money half a year ago to supposedly start building Predator. In that time, Stern has released: IMVE and TWD (3 versions) and will likely release WWE (2 versions) and had completed an entire new OS.

How many games has Stern released in the time that Kevin and Jpop have been working on their games? Seven and counting, likely will be 7-10 full games including VE games in the time that it takes Jpop to deliver his first game.

Avengers
Metallica
ST
Mustang
IMVE
TWD
WWE

#3 5 years ago

There are pinball manufacturing companies and then there are pinball announcing companies. Two very different things.
Scott

10
#4 5 years ago

I'm just astonished at the bad behavior many are willing to put up with from some of these companies.... and then be willing to double-down and defend them!

1. DP.
DP: You want a refund? Hmmm, have we told you about the special PLAQUE you will get for not being a wimp? Oh, you still want a refund.... We'll get back to you!
Battered Wife: Frankly, if it wasn't for that guy who left 2 months ago, everything would be FINE- its all HIS fault.

2. JJP
"We are contractually obligated to ship when the movie comes out, so you can ignore all those WoZ-missed-delivery promises.... now we HAVE TO ship on time, please send payments."
Battered Wife: Well, well, EVERYONE lies on the internet... and anyways, dont you want them to make the game BETTER? That just cant be done in a few years time... it'll just take a FEW more months...

3. SkitB
"Apparently some folks had this unreal expectation that after we took their money, you know, we'd answer the phones or emails.... pfffttt... Oh, and the fact that we removed EVERY trace of the game from all media sources has you concerned? Sigh.... alright, I will grant you all a brief generic update, but only twice a month.
Battered Wife: But, but, but, do you REALLY want them spending ALL their time sending emails, or building games? Are you aware of just how long it takes to send an email these days?!?!! Anyways, I have a photo of a bag or slingshot plastics from a year ago- thats proof enough for me!

4. Stern
Battered wife: Damn company ships machines with incomplete code!!! I'm furious! Oh, gosh, new machine announced, I need to trip over myself to get on the list for an LE model!!!!

#5 5 years ago

There's a solution: stop giving money to "companies" that never done anything to deserve it!!

#6 5 years ago

The collapse of the prepay model will be followed shortly by the collapse of all the pinball companies that rely on prepayments to fund their manufacturing process.

2015 is going to be an interesting and enlightening year. This mess is not going to get cleaned up without some (hopefully metaphoric) blood being spilled.

Scott

#7 5 years ago
Quoted from shakethatmachine:

The collapse of the prepay model will be followed shortly by the collapse of all the pinball companies that rely on prepayments to fund their manufacturing process.
2015 is going to be an interesting and enlightening year. This mess is not going to get cleaned up without some (hopefully metaphoric) blood being spilled.
Scott

Im not sure it will come to that.... it seems like theres no end to the number of people that will suspend commonsense for their "grail-themed pin".

I do chuckle at those who scold the pre-pay critics as HATERS of pinball - as if thats the ONLY way pinball could ever expand!

They've obviously never heard of that quaint model where entrepreneurs risked THEIR OWN capital and brought a product to market and THEN sold it.

#8 5 years ago

pezpunk's gonna lose his shit when he sees this topic.

#9 5 years ago

The prepay model has been horribly abused by two companies and moderate to mildly misused by others. People now know that promises can and will be broken, deadlines will be missed or lied about and that their money isn't absolutely safe. I won't support pre-orders anymore no matter who it is. Nor will I buy a newly released stern to find incomplete code and mechanical or physical defects that they refuse to fix.

So, I guess my days of buying new pins may be over? I'll wait until a pin has been out for a while and decide to buy it on it's current state expecting no further fixes of any kind. People who blindly buy pins or hand pre-order money out are telling the manufacturers it's ok to treat them poorly. I know some manufacturers don't do it intentionally. I know many people who actually make the pins and they're just as disgusted by current practices as I am but what can they do.

I know you all want new pins, I do too. But paying for a pin way in advance and getting less than you were told is bullshit. Paying huge money for an LE and getting faulty mechs, design defects or poor software is also bullshit. The suits at these companies are treating customers poorly and if it continues they'll lose customers forever. Small numbers at first but as people will learn they'll quit buying. Sad to say but this is where we are IMO.

#10 5 years ago

not really into this. pretty unfair to compare the two.

11
#11 5 years ago

I know you're trying to prove a point and all, but as someone who had a friend who was battered and eventually murdered by her husband because she tried to leave him, there's no comparison. People giving money to a manufacturer for a luxury toy and making excuses for them does not equate real women being afraid for their lives. You said you don't understand, so here's a little more info if you are so inclined to read it.

Quoted from lowepg:

I read a recent newspaper article describing a woman who was being continuously abused by her spouse and yet refused to leave him. While I absolutely think the husband was a monster in the situation and 100% to blame, a small part of me couldn't understand why the women just wouldn't (or couldn't) leave him.

Sometimes it is easier to stay and be beaten than to try to leave and be killed. Quoted from the link I provided below:
"Women are most likely to be murdered when attempting to report abuse or to leave an abusive relationship. (Sonkin et al., 1985, Browne, 1987).
...the significantly increased risk was not due to an escalation of the violence that was already present in these marital relationships. Rather, they point out that batterers warned their wives that if they left they would be killed; they then followed through on those threats."

Many women don't stay, then have to go back because they have no place to go. Many women have a controlling husband that will not allow them to have a job, and therefore they have no money, no way to support themselves, and no way out. If they have children, they can't just grab them and run without reporting it to the schools. If they have no family, they have to try to find a shelter. Not all cities have a shelter, most shelters have a limit and waiting list, and many shelters will not take in pets that the woman refuses to leave behind to die.

A half-way determined husband can find them anyway. I work at an insurance company and occasionally we have to stop all mail to the home so that the husband can't find the wife. Before we had established an emergency procedure in place for this, a woman died because the letter about her hospital care indicating where she was went to the address on file, he got it, and the next day stabbed her to death in the hospital for daring to leave him. My friend was actively trying to leave her husband and get her 2 kids somewhere safe, and when her husband found out, he came home, beat her senseless in front of the children, drug her outside by her hair, and strangled her in the front yard, leaving her body there.

http://intimateviolencedeathnews.blogspot.com/2010/10/chattanooga-tn-update-new-details-in.html

Here's the link in case anyone cares: http://www.ncdsv.org/images/20reasonswhyshestays.pdf

#12 5 years ago

The discussion is relevant but the thread title & comparison are beyond poor taste. Common sense that someone might find this offensive

#13 5 years ago

Wait...

Hobbit didn't ship in 2014?

Lol. But, but, but, the movie, they promised!

FYI better off to equate preorders to Stockholm syndrome. That's always been my go to. Less specific & less offensive to most folks.

#14 5 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

The prepay model has been horribly abused by two companies and moderate to mildly misused by others.

The crazy thing is that I'm not 100% sure which two companies you're referring to. I can think of at least 4 which fall under this description.

#15 5 years ago

In all fairness, technology and Laws have changed quite a bit in the last 25-30 years (since the time of the cited article) making it difficult to get away with spousal physical abuse. Cell phones with cameras/recording capability, surveillance cameras all over the place including traffic cameras really have changed things for the better.

All domestic violence calls to the police are investigated. If one of the two spouses even says the other laid a hand on them, proven by a mark or not; one of them gets hauled off to jail for the night. Before release, the other is given notice of the spouse's pending release and option to go to a safe haven, PPO can be issued etc. Still not foolproof, but way better than things were 25+ years ago.

Also keep in mind this is a two-way street, many females get carted off for taking their temper too far and striking their male partner or throwing something at them.

Just sayin'....

#16 5 years ago

I know it's an older article, it's just the first one I grabbed from the many on a simple search. And yes, things have changed since then, but had a simple explanation of "why." However, my friend died less than 5 years ago, while actively trying to leave her husband, and despite multiple calls to police and shelters in her last few days. And I've stopped letters at work to abuse cases 8 times in the last year. So it's not like things have stopped because we got camera phones. And yes, women are crazy too. I know of a few males in abusive relationships, and that's almost worse because they are made fun of instead of believed and taken care of. It's just a sad state all around.

My main point is... I'm in on Predator, paid in full, and have been waiting for my machine for 3 years now. I was a big cheerleader for them originally, and have been continually getting more aggravated with the delays and lack of information. But I'm pretty sure I can ask for a refund without having to worry about being murdered. It may be a pain, and I might have a fight on my hands to get a reply and my money, but it's not life and death.

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from PW79:

Wait...
Hobbit didn't ship in 2014?
Lol. But, but, but, the movie, they promised!
FYI better off to equate preorders to Stockholm syndrome. That's always been my go to. Less specific & less offensive to most folks.

Fair point.

Stockholm Syndrome is less apt to offend, but less accurate a comparison (IMO).

I *DO* find it ironic that some folks are "offended" by just the mention of the comparison, but not offended in the least when they are being lied to for the purpose of collecting pre-order money....

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from Blackjacker:

pezpunk's gonna lose his shit when he sees this topic.

not enough semi-nude pix...

#19 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Fair point.
Stockholm Syndrome is less apt to offend, but less accurate a comparison (IMO).
I *DO* find it ironic that some folks are "offended" by just the mention of the comparison, but not offended in the least when they are being lied to for the purpose of collecting pre-order money....

Well, violence against women is very serious. Being lied to or getting screwed by dishonest sellers is minor by comparison.

#20 5 years ago

.

#21 5 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

Well, violence against women is very serious. Being lied to or getting screwed by dishonest sellers is minor by comparison.

I agree. Nothing is more offensive that violence against women (except against children).

However, I was saying people seemed more offended by MY COMPARISON than they are of the bad behavior of these companies.....

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

I was saying people seemed more offended by MY COMPARISON than they are of the bad behavior of these companies.....

Geez.
How you could **not** edit your thread title after what Blondetall wrote is beyond my understanding.

Post edited by jlm33: tall, not tail... so sorry! Have to hide somewhere... you can freeze me as punishment

#23 5 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

Geez.
How you could **not** edit your thread title after what Blondetail wrote is beyond my understanding.

(It's Blondetall)....

She was very forgiving of my mistake in her name ( Fruedian? Perhaps. She IS a looker).

Gotta try to lighten up this thread a tad.

Lowepg, I get you are trying to drive home a point but you're getting a bit overzealous in this vendetta.

I'm paid in full for almost a year now. Not ready to lose my cool over anything at this time. It's a gamble. Always is with a fledgling startup. When I'm ready I'll let Skitb know I want out but I'm not obsessing over it.

#24 5 years ago

Shit some off us think 2015 is going to be a great year

#25 5 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Shit some off us think 2015 is going to be a great year

Great for some, maybe not so much for others. Too soon to tell yet. If SkitB gets help building these, they'll be on the right track. I think that may be their stumbling block.

#26 5 years ago

Agreed pre-orders suck, but there is absolutely no comparison between the psychology of domestic violence and the psychology of pre-ordering pinball machines.

#27 5 years ago

Stern: Plainly has most of the talent, always releases "a" product, never asks for money in advance.

JJP: Says second pin is last of the crowdfunded ones. Delivered in spades, albeit late, on WOZ. Expect the same on TH. Great pin, late. Better good than on time.

DP: Internal strife caused a "run on the bank." I have every bit of faith TBL will see the light of day and cast a huge shadow.

Spooky: Gods. Just. Plain. Gods.

Circus Maximus: NO MONEY REQUESTED. Good on 'em.

Skit-B: Refunded every dime requested. No pins yet. No blood, no foul.

JPop. Looked like a Ponzi scheme for a while, but recent sightings of MG are beginning to suggest otherwise.

Your beef?

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

Post edited by jlm33: tall, not tail... so sorry! Have to hide somewhere... you can freeze me as punishment

No need to hide, I'm used to it. I jokingly said at one point that I was going to make a sticky note that I was indeed a tall, blonde female... and not a weird version of a blonde-tailed deer or chaser of blondes. lol

Quoted from underlord:

(It's Blondetall)....
She was very forgiving of my mistake in her name ( Fruedian? Perhaps. She IS a looker).

Normally I'd jokingly tell you to stop stalking me, but this is a weird thread so I'm just going to take this as a compliment and behave instead.

#29 5 years ago

I agree we should not equate this mania with battered spouse syndrome.

But on the topic of pre-payment. I'm reading a book on stock market speculation and/or bubbles in the market over history.

One thing I find appropriate to this discussion is that current dollars are worth more than future dollars, therefore you need to be getting a discount to pay in advance no two ways about it.

the book gives an example, it is far more costly to pay $1000 up front for somethig than to pay $100/year for 10 years.

This is how bonds work, you buy a bond and over time you are paid back plus interest or if not annual interest you are payed more than the selling price, for example, if you bought a 10,000 zero coupon bond for ten years you may pay $9K up front and receive the $10k when it matures.

So, as I see it, the benifit of pre-ordering (I see no benifit) but the main benifit would be if the pin was going to be selling for MORE later on. So Stern wanted to presell a LE said the pre-order was $6600 but if you wait it's $7700.

The speculation that a LE will increase in value such as Tron LE and ACDc LE, BSM. Is hard to predict.

As we've seen pre-orders can be difficult to impossible to re-sell and often involve a loss of money.

#30 5 years ago

I think the OP is just comparing the excuse-making and rationalizing of those in situations where they have a lot invested and all their hopes and expectations have been met with disappointment. I don't think he's saying "didn't get my pre-order" = "domestic violence".

#31 5 years ago

This is why the term offended is so banal when it is a catch all phrase. It trivialises a serious issue like domestic violence when the same term is used for saucy pinball art.

If it's your contention that raunchy art leads to objectification that leads to rape and violence then the issue is with you and what sets you off when you see half naked women.

#32 5 years ago
Quoted from pinlawyer:

Stern: Plainly has most of the talent, always releases "a" product, never asks for money in advance.
JJP: Says second pin is last of the crowdfunded ones. Delivered in spades, albeit late, on WOZ. Expect the same on TH. Great pin, late. Better good than on time.
DP: Internal strife caused a "run on the bank." I have every bit of faith TBL will see the light of day and cast a huge Shadow.
Spooky: Gods. Just. Plain. Gods.
Circus Maximus: NO MONEY REQUESTED. Good on 'em.
Skit-B: Refunded every dime requested. No pins yet. No blood, no foul.
JPop. Looked like a Ponzi scheme for a while, but recent sightings of MG are beginning to suggest otherwise.
Your beef?

I'm mostly in agreement. The ponzi thing made me laugh. I'm not sure about JJP. They had great intentions and had a huge impact on the pinball industry. It remains to be seen when they can sell games after they are made.

#33 5 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Shit some off us think 2015 is going to be a great year

It is!

#34 5 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

Geez.
How you could **not** edit your thread title after what Blondetall wrote is beyond my understanding.

Post edited by jlm33: tall, not tail... so sorry! Have to hide somewhere... you can freeze me as punishment

How could you NOT just ignore the thread if you disagreed with the premise (rather than bumping it).

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